Capitalism or Communism? Is communism really that horrible?

[Katiegrrl0]

You are talking about "Communism", a poor political implementation of the economic theory, "communism".

Even "communism" was tried, however, by some early English settlers in North America. They almost starved. This suggests "communism" is against human nature, but executing people isn't one of its faults

Just a coincidence that mass murder follow every Communist take over

Tell me about these Communist takeovers. What countries were truly Communist? Were these changes peaceable or did they come by means of revolution and war?

 

[Katiegrrl0]

Just a coincidence that mass murder follow every Communist take over

Yep...from Stalin, Chairman Mao...to the killing fields of Pol Pot...

None of which were Communist governments.

 

[whitehall]

What is the argument about? Should we choose a "moderately" or "not so" horrible system to replace capitalism? Why not move to a country that embraces communism and tell us how you make out in a couple of years? Cuba is only a short 90 mile trip.

 

[The T]

Yep...from Stalin, Chairman Mao...to the killing fields of Pol Pot...

None of which were Communist governments.

But flew the banner of Communists? Really?

 

[Katiegrrl0]

It's demeaning to the soul...

Yes but the mentality was created. Again, how is this undone without creating havoc? It's the system the US created trying to undo this is now a national problem.

And what system would that be?

I have no idea what system it is that caused the US to start handing out money. I can see the need during the depression and Dust Bowl days that created programs but they never ended and now they linger on swallowing large amounts of money every year with no return from the people on the taking end. There is no training that works. It's not always even a requirement. If you are out of work you should be looking for a job and not sitting home playing computer games and watching TV.
But it doesn't seem the system works that way.

 

[The T]

Just a coincidence that mass murder follow every Communist take over

Tell me about these Communist takeovers. What countries were truly Communist? Were these changes peaceable or did they come by means of revolution and war?

Communism cannot work due to nature of man.

About cover it?

 

[Katiegrrl0]

Yep...from Stalin, Chairman Mao...to the killing fields of Pol Pot...

None of which were Communist governments.

But flew the banner of Communists? Really?

Yes they were really not Communist at all. Not even close. They were totalitarian images of Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot.
There was no equality there at all. They were ruled by an iron fist as a result to a fragile government that had nothing to offer. One killed the educated. One held an assault on those that led the deposed regime and the other killed everyone they didn't like. This is not Communism or any kind of real government. It certainly wasn't any Communism I ever studied. The Communist theory was never accomplished and I don't believe it is workable on a giant scale.
They can call their governments anything they want. It doesn't make it true. If I call an apple bacon won't be bacon no matter how many times I say the word. .

 

[The T]

Yes but the mentality was created. Again, how is this undone without creating havoc? It's the system the US created trying to undo this is now a national problem.

And what system would that be?

I have no idea what system it is that caused the US to start handing out money. I can see the need during the depression and Dust Bowl days that created programs but they never ended and now they linger on swallowing large amounts of money every year with no return from the people on the taking end. There is no training that works. It's not always even a requirement. If you are out of work you should be looking for a job and not sitting home playing computer games and watching TV.
But it doesn't seem the system works that way.

Go back say 100 years in recent times and look at Wilson and his merry band of progressives and two amendments that were added to the BOR...and go from there.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

Tell me about these Communist takeovers. What countries were truly Communist? Were these changes peaceable or did they come by means of revolution and war?

Communism cannot work due to nature of man.

About cover it?

When you are talking about human nature are you talking about that which is learned or the nature of a child who grows to create his or her own ideas?
If you had been born in say the old Soviet Union or CCCP would you have totally different ideas? Of course you would. Your entire learning system would have encourage That type of though.
If you would have been born in France I could say the same thing.
Human nature or the things we do are governed by what we have learned and been exposed to. So what really is human nature?
I don't believe Communism can work in large units.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

And what system would that be?

I have no idea what system it is that caused the US to start handing out money. I can see the need during the depression and Dust Bowl days that created programs but they never ended and now they linger on swallowing large amounts of money every year with no return from the people on the taking end. There is no training that works. It's not always even a requirement. If you are out of work you should be looking for a job and not sitting home playing computer games and watching TV.
But it doesn't seem the system works that way.

Go back say 100 years in recent times and look at Wilson and his merry band of progressives and two amendments that were added to the BOR...and go from there.

You are talking about a system of social systems put into place by the US. These social programs in no way reflect Communism or Socialism. They are reflective of bad management by those in authority.

 

[ecinicola]

communism controls every aspect of your life and your finances, and the only one who gains by it are the politicians or dictators. If you like being controlled and people into you finances and people telling you what you can and can't do, then you like communism. I for one oppose it totally.
The part that alot of people aren't seeing or grasping, is that Obama's intentions from day one, is to transform this country into something other then America. American does not need to be transformed or changed into a socialist, communistic country or the way Obama was raised as a Muslim.
But this is what he is doing and wants to finish doing it. He needs to be voted out and stopped.
Remember, a person is usually guided by the way he was raised and the way his thinking was formed as a child, and the influences in ones life. Obama was raised in a Muslim country by a muslim father. His thinking is not the same as ours. His influences have all been bad from the horrible associations he has had in life also. This is a fact. Proven fact.

 

[The T]

I have no idea what system it is that caused the US to start handing out money. I can see the need during the depression and Dust Bowl days that created programs but they never ended and now they linger on swallowing large amounts of money every year with no return from the people on the taking end. There is no training that works. It's not always even a requirement. If you are out of work you should be looking for a job and not sitting home playing computer games and watching TV.
But it doesn't seem the system works that way.

Go back say 100 years in recent times and look at Wilson and his merry band of progressives and two amendments that were added to the BOR...and go from there.

You are talking about a system of social systems put into place by the US. These social programs in no way reflect Communism or Socialism. They are reflective of bad management by those in authority.

Sorry. I just don't have time to follow you as you talk in continuous circles.

 

[JoeB131]

My thought is that Capitalism and Communism both sound great on paper, but they usually get mucked up when you get human beings in the mix.

Communism sounds great. We take care of everyone, everyone gets an equal share. The problem with that model is that there is no reward for talent or genius or iniative. And those who are inclined to slack off will do so.

Capitalism sounds wonderful on paper. You invest, you take a chance, you get a return on your investment and hard work. Sounds wonderful, until you get people like, well, Mitt Romney involved, who think nothing at all of running roughshod over folks to make himself richer.

Communism encourages sloth, Capitalism encourages avarice. Both are sins.

 

[JoeB131]

Tell me about these Communist takeovers. What countries were truly Communist? Were these changes peaceable or did they come by means of revolution and war?

Communism cannot work due to nature of man.

About cover it?

Neither does capitalism, for much the same reason...

 

[Katiegrrl0]

Go back say 100 years in recent times and look at Wilson and his merry band of progressives and two amendments that were added to the BOR...and go from there.

You are talking about a system of social systems put into place by the US. These social programs in no way reflect Communism or Socialism. They are reflective of bad management by those in authority.

Sorry. I just don't have time to follow you as you talk in continuous circles.

I have been trying to decipher what you are trying to say. You speak of progressives and I am not even certain what you believe this is. I have been trying to get a handle on this elusive term from your prospective.

From what I have gathered is you don't like the current welfare system in the US but have no clue how is should be ended.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Banishment is the ultimate punishment for those who didn't follow the tribal rules. Most cases were solved by ostracism. But the tribe took care of the elderly, disabled, widows, and orphans.

And at one time? OUR Society did that unfettered...it was called Private Charity...WHY did government take on that role when it is NO WHERE to be found in the Constitution?

In many ways the US has become a private charity. It takes care of the many. This seems to be their way. In a large scale society how does one handle those that refuse to participate. In a true Socialism those that don't work don't eat. Perhaps this is a place to start in the US. Stop the welfare dependency and tell people the last of the free give away money comes at midnight Jan. 1, 2013. See how many are working by that time. If they aren't the police would have their hands full from the riots.

Except it's neither private, nor a charity. Everything else you say can only be garbage when started from the fallacious and ignorant premise that something that is run by a government and forced on people against their will can be referred to as a "private charity". Might as well try to declare the moon to be the sun while you're about it.

 

[Toro]

Communism cannot work due to nature of man.

About cover it?

Neither does capitalism, for much the same reason...

It has for 200 years.

Suck it down, man.

 

[Toro]

None of which were Communist governments.

But flew the banner of Communists? Really?

Yes they were really not Communist at all. Not even close. They were totalitarian images of Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot.
There was no equality there at all. They were ruled by an iron fist as a result to a fragile government that had nothing to offer. One killed the educated. One held an assault on those that led the deposed regime and the other killed everyone they didn't like. This is not Communism or any kind of real government. It certainly wasn't any Communism I ever studied. The Communist theory was never accomplished and I don't believe it is workable on a giant scale.
They can call their governments anything they want. It doesn't make it true. If I call an apple bacon won't be bacon no matter how many times I say the word. .

By this logic, communists cannot criticize capitalism because true capitalism has never existed either.

This is merely a philosophical argument suited for a classroom and that's all. Truth is, dozens of countries attempted communism in one form or another. Whether or not it was "pure" communism is irrelevant because it presumes that human action fits nice and neatly into the dictums of some theoretician about how society should work, not how it actually does work. What matters is the driving force of social organization, not whether or not everything fits exactly as the communist philosopher theorized.

And today, there are only two countries which call themselves communist. One is slowly changing and will accelerate when the ancient brothers die off, and the other is a model no one else wishes to emulate.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Truth is I know quite a few upper-middle class individuals who are pretty frugal.... They could afford a BMW but they don't want a BMW, they want a reliable 5k auto.....

That's what they want - God bless them...

Their intent is to save for their family, cant blame them really.

Practicality. The American spirit lives.

Well I suppose modesty is humbleness..

I don't think anyone really needs a BMW or marble bathroom and kitchen counters..

Doesn't matter. Why have we allowed ourselves to get to a mindset where we mouth phrases like "Well, no one really needs . . ."? What if that's what they want? Why are we willing to accept, even provisionally, the idea that everyone should be constrained to have just "enough", as defined by some sort of nationwide average or median or something?

It scares me that I posted a defense of the right of people to decide their own individual desires, and within five posts, people who were putatively agreeing with me have talked themselves back around to some liberal collectivist idea of "they don't need that".

 

[Intense]

None of which were Communist governments.

But flew the banner of Communists? Really?

Yes they were really not Communist at all. Not even close. They were totalitarian images of Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot.
There was no equality there at all. They were ruled by an iron fist as a result to a fragile government that had nothing to offer. One killed the educated. One held an assault on those that led the deposed regime and the other killed everyone they didn't like. This is not Communism or any kind of real government. It certainly wasn't any Communism I ever studied. The Communist theory was never accomplished and I don't believe it is workable on a giant scale.
They can call their governments anything they want. It doesn't make it true. If I call an apple bacon won't be bacon no matter how many times I say the word. .

You do understand that Capitalism is only a part of the Free Market System, where Value determines Price. Government Subsidy, Government Maintained Monopolies actually take away from that. In that they serve Government Interests, not the Peoples, generally, and are tools of manipulation, fraud, and waste, all too often. The Concept of Private Property, your ability to hold on to what is yours, be it much or little, to protect from Theft, even from the Tyranny of the State. When you surrender Your Individual Rights, to the Interest of the State, without your consent, you have no rights, only favor and privilege, which is arbitrary and short lived. We are not interchangeable in the sense that we each matter, we each have Value separate from the State. I do not Live for the State, though I may benefit it and support it, by consent. My purpose for being exists both within the State and apart from it, by choice. Yes I adhere to the Rule of Law, Yes I support Justice. When the Rule of Law is on the wrong side of what is just, Reasoned People will point that out. Communism, Socialism, show no respect for Individual will or Property. There is no way around that. Socialism and Communism have no concept of Enumerated Power. Just because you choose to not focus on that aspect, does not mean that it is not the root of Progressive Statist Centralized Control, one size fits all, whether you like it or not. When mistakes are made at that level, well intentioned or not, they tend to be catastrophic.