Capitalism or Communism? Is communism really that horrible?

[Cecilie1200]

" You mean before human nature sets in"

Yes thats what i am trying to compare. Before people can buy they're way to the top of a supposedly "non existant" ladder. But of course in every communist government so far this has happened because of human nature

What's the purpose of discussing something whose real existence is literally, 100% impossible? Why don't we discuss whether elves are better than fairies, while we're about it?

 

[The T]

" You mean before human nature sets in"

Yes thats what i am trying to compare. Before people can buy they're way to the top of a supposedly "non existant" ladder. But of course in every communist government so far this has happened because of human nature

What's the purpose of discussing something whose real existence is literally, 100% impossible? Why don't we discuss whether elves are better than fairies, while we're about it?

I prefer gnomes over faries...but that's just me.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Communism and socialism only works with a base of robots, slaves, or prisoners bowing to the state and ruling elite which will ALWAYS exist in such a system(which despite what the kumbaya chanting hippies try to portray as a utopian communist state)

Like monastic orders and consenting collective farms?

There's no mandate to join a Monastic order or farm.

See the difference?

Not to mention the fact that people in those two sorts of organizations kinda do fit into the previously-described mindset. Monks, for example, take vows of poverty and obedience. How likely is it that an entire society is going to do that?

 

[Katiegrrl0]

Jonestown was not Communist or Socialist. It was a community based on some strange religious belief. The problem with debate on a topic like this as the examples people chose to use never fit the comparison. Many aboriginal tribes and the Native Americans are the prime examples. Of small community working in a Socialistic or Communistic nature. They provided for that tribe. They made clothes and grew crops and hunted. This was for provisioning for their own.
The setting you have chosen was driven by a totally different motive and does not fit. Waco would be a similar example to what you suggest and this was not at all like the comparisons I have used.
As I said on a large scale it would be very difficult to maintain as it would lack innovative incentive.
There are communities as i stated all over the world and they work within the confines of the larger nation state. They can be self-sufficient in many ways, providing food, clothing, schooling, and power. Some even have outside business interests where extra food and other manner of things are bartered or sold. These have existed for many years.

And what would happen to members of the said tribe if they did not do their part?

Banishment is the ultimate punishment for those who didn't follow the tribal rules. Most cases were solved by ostracism. But the tribe took care of the elderly, disabled, widows, and orphans.

We have been discussing a certain structure of a society within a society. There is choice included. If a person makes the decision to join such a community as has been described and failed to live up to their part of the bargain they would be banished into the everyday society. How is this banishment?

 

[Cecilie1200]

After college I was all for communism. Call it indoctrination of the liberal teachers. However, I thought about it deeply and came to the conclusion it can never work. First, equal is a fantasy. Nothing can be equal because there is not an equal amount of resources. It is a fairy tale to believe everyone can have the same of everything because someone will always have something better. Whether it is lake front property, warmer climate, etc…. Everyone can not live on the beach in sunny south Florida or in Hawaii. Then we get to work. Everyone can not have the cushy chair job. Someone has to pick up the trash. Someone has to dive into the sewage tanks and risk hepatitis to clean it. Who is going to do those jobs freely if everything is equal? There is nothing more to gain from doing those jobs. Heck if everyone has the same thing then why work at all? Then the government will have to force people to work and then there goes human rights. The only way communism, socialism, liberalism, etc… can truly work is if we lived in the perfect world with the perfect resources and populated with the perfect people. We have none and that is why those forms of government will always fail in the end. Capitalism works because people in the end are greedy and always want more. No matter what form of government you have you will always have the haves and have nots. The only real question is does the individual decide through his own efforts and accomplishments or does the government get to pick the haves?

Lets not forget we're all not the same...

We all have different talents, we all have different intelligent levels, we all have different skills etc...

The truth is that we're all not the same.

Sure, treating the janitor the same as the doctor is good for the janitor but it's not good for the doctor....

Why even bother going the extra mile as an individual under the socialist model??? it won't get you anything.... And I think that extra effort is what built the US and what keeps the United States on top of the world - because individuals are rewarded for their effort and their extra work...

Not to mention that we don't all have the same desires. Not everyone WANTS to be a hugely powerful and rich business mogul. Does that mean that someone who DOES want to should be prevented from doing so and forced to live like those who are perfectly happy being middle-class?

 

[Katiegrrl0]

And what would happen to members of the said tribe if they did not do their part?

Banishment is the ultimate punishment for those who didn't follow the tribal rules. Most cases were solved by ostracism. But the tribe took care of the elderly, disabled, widows, and orphans.

And at one time? OUR Society did that unfettered...it was called Private Charity...WHY did government take on that role when it is NO WHERE to be found in the Constitution?

In many ways the US has become a private charity. It takes care of the many. This seems to be their way. In a large scale society how does one handle those that refuse to participate. In a true Socialism those that don't work don't eat. Perhaps this is a place to start in the US. Stop the welfare dependency and tell people the last of the free give away money comes at midnight Jan. 1, 2013. See how many are working by that time. If they aren't the police would have their hands full from the riots.

 

[The T]

After college I was all for communism. Call it indoctrination of the liberal teachers. However, I thought about it deeply and came to the conclusion it can never work. First, equal is a fantasy. Nothing can be equal because there is not an equal amount of resources. It is a fairy tale to believe everyone can have the same of everything because someone will always have something better. Whether it is lake front property, warmer climate, etc…. Everyone can not live on the beach in sunny south Florida or in Hawaii. Then we get to work. Everyone can not have the cushy chair job. Someone has to pick up the trash. Someone has to dive into the sewage tanks and risk hepatitis to clean it. Who is going to do those jobs freely if everything is equal? There is nothing more to gain from doing those jobs. Heck if everyone has the same thing then why work at all? Then the government will have to force people to work and then there goes human rights. The only way communism, socialism, liberalism, etc… can truly work is if we lived in the perfect world with the perfect resources and populated with the perfect people. We have none and that is why those forms of government will always fail in the end. Capitalism works because people in the end are greedy and always want more. No matter what form of government you have you will always have the haves and have nots. The only real question is does the individual decide through his own efforts and accomplishments or does the government get to pick the haves?

Lets not forget we're all not the same...

We all have different talents, we all have different intelligent levels, we all have different skills etc...

The truth is that we're all not the same.

Sure, treating the janitor the same as the doctor is good for the janitor but it's not good for the doctor....

Why even bother going the extra mile as an individual under the socialist model??? it won't get you anything.... And I think that extra effort is what built the US and what keeps the United States on top of the world - because individuals are rewarded for their effort and their extra work...

Not to mention that we don't all have the same desires. Not everyone WANTS to be a hugely powerful and rich business mogul. Does that mean that someone who DOES want to should be prevented from doing so and forced to live like those who are perfectly happy being middle-class?

Yeah...just having a job one enjoys, excels at...supporting oneself and family unfettered on one's own terms...not too much to ask....

 

[The T]

Banishment is the ultimate punishment for those who didn't follow the tribal rules. Most cases were solved by ostracism. But the tribe took care of the elderly, disabled, widows, and orphans.

And at one time? OUR Society did that unfettered...it was called Private Charity...WHY did government take on that role when it is NO WHERE to be found in the Constitution?

In many ways the US has become a private charity. It takes care of the many. This seems to be their way. In a large scale society how does one handle those that refuse to participate. In a true Socialism those that don't work don't eat. Perhaps this is a place to start in the US. Stop the welfare dependency and tell people the last of the free give away money comes at midnight Jan. 1, 2013. See how many are working by that time. If they aren't the police would have their hands full from the riots.

And was never meant to. Period.

 

[regent]

" You mean before human nature sets in"

Yes thats what i am trying to compare. Before people can buy they're way to the top of a supposedly "non existant" ladder. But of course in every communist government so far this has happened because of human nature

What's the purpose of discussing something whose real existence is literally, 100% impossible? Why don't we discuss whether elves are better than fairies, while we're about it?

It truly is incredible, all the evidence offered that communism does not exist nor has ever existed as a viable national economic system and it is completely ignored. But one thing has improved, if this was 1950, we wouldn't even discuss the topic. So one more time, the USSR. nor any of the countries labeled communistic at one time, or now, simply did not practice communism. I'm beginning to think Hamilton was right, a democracy is not a good system.

 

[The T]

" You mean before human nature sets in"

Yes thats what i am trying to compare. Before people can buy they're way to the top of a supposedly "non existant" ladder. But of course in every communist government so far this has happened because of human nature

What's the purpose of discussing something whose real existence is literally, 100% impossible? Why don't we discuss whether elves are better than fairies, while we're about it?

It truly is incredible, all the evidence offered that communism does not exist nor has ever existed as a viable national economic system and it is completely ignored. But one thing has improved, if this was 1950, we wouldn't even discuss the topic. So one more time, the USSR. nor any of the countries labeled communistic at one time, or now, simply did not practice communism. I'm beginning to think Hamilton was right, a democracy is not a good system.

And therefore gave us a Republic based upon law, Statists are Hell-bent on destroying.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

And at one time? OUR Society did that unfettered...it was called Private Charity...WHY did government take on that role when it is NO WHERE to be found in the Constitution?

In many ways the US has become a private charity. It takes care of the many. This seems to be their way. In a large scale society how does one handle those that refuse to participate. In a true Socialism those that don't work don't eat. Perhaps this is a place to start in the US. Stop the welfare dependency and tell people the last of the free give away money comes at midnight Jan. 1, 2013. See how many are working by that time. If they aren't the police would have their hands full from the riots.

And was never meant to. Period.

This is true but how do you go about changing this. Do you as I suggested have a cut off on all welfare checks? Do you turn people away from hospitals? What does one do when they have created the monster that now eats off of everyone?
It causes a conundrum of a scope that is impossible to visualize. Charity in the past handled this as best it could. Now it has become an expectation. Does a welfare check help someone get a job. No it doesn't. It creates a pool of non workers within the state who provide little or nothing.
How does this get drawn to a close?

 

[Mr.Nick]

After college I was all for communism. Call it indoctrination of the liberal teachers. However, I thought about it deeply and came to the conclusion it can never work. First, equal is a fantasy. Nothing can be equal because there is not an equal amount of resources. It is a fairy tale to believe everyone can have the same of everything because someone will always have something better. Whether it is lake front property, warmer climate, etc…. Everyone can not live on the beach in sunny south Florida or in Hawaii. Then we get to work. Everyone can not have the cushy chair job. Someone has to pick up the trash. Someone has to dive into the sewage tanks and risk hepatitis to clean it. Who is going to do those jobs freely if everything is equal? There is nothing more to gain from doing those jobs. Heck if everyone has the same thing then why work at all? Then the government will have to force people to work and then there goes human rights. The only way communism, socialism, liberalism, etc… can truly work is if we lived in the perfect world with the perfect resources and populated with the perfect people. We have none and that is why those forms of government will always fail in the end. Capitalism works because people in the end are greedy and always want more. No matter what form of government you have you will always have the haves and have nots. The only real question is does the individual decide through his own efforts and accomplishments or does the government get to pick the haves?

Lets not forget we're all not the same...

We all have different talents, we all have different intelligent levels, we all have different skills etc...

The truth is that we're all not the same.

Sure, treating the janitor the same as the doctor is good for the janitor but it's not good for the doctor....

Why even bother going the extra mile as an individual under the socialist model??? it won't get you anything.... And I think that extra effort is what built the US and what keeps the United States on top of the world - because individuals are rewarded for their effort and their extra work...

Not to mention that we don't all have the same desires. Not everyone WANTS to be a hugely powerful and rich business mogul. Does that mean that someone who DOES want to should be prevented from doing so and forced to live like those who are perfectly happy being middle-class?

Agreed...

I'm sure many are more than content with their position.

Not to mention just because one is wealthy - that does't mean they're greedy. Success doesn't imply anything about an individual or their intent on society or economy.

I suppose OWS has a different perspective...

 

[MikeK]

The Occupiers should be careful for that of which they wish.

If America collapses, they may just get the communism of Lefty's wet dreams!

Unless you are among the One Percent the Occupy movement is serving your interests by calling attention to the maneuvering and manipulations of Wall Street, the banking industry and the emerging corporatocracy which collectively endeavor to restore the social stratification and living standards that existed prior to the New Deal. I respectfully recommend that you not allow the neo-Conservative propaganda machine to distort your perceptions of what is happening to our Country. This Nation's wealth must be equitably redistributed to retain stability of the middle class -- the survival of which is seriously threatened.

If America collapses it will be brought about by those who are and have been relentlessly moving our wealth, our manufacturing capabilities and our jobs offshore. So don't be fooled into believing the People are at fault for what is being done to them. Adjust your sights upward a few clicks and you'll see things more clearly.

 

[Mr.Nick]

In many ways the US has become a private charity. It takes care of the many. This seems to be their way. In a large scale society how does one handle those that refuse to participate. In a true Socialism those that don't work don't eat. Perhaps this is a place to start in the US. Stop the welfare dependency and tell people the last of the free give away money comes at midnight Jan. 1, 2013. See how many are working by that time. If they aren't the police would have their hands full from the riots.

And was never meant to. Period.

This is true but how do you go about changing this. Do you as I suggested have a cut off on all welfare checks? Do you turn people away from hospitals? What does one do when they have created the monster that now eats off of everyone?
It causes a conundrum of a scope that is impossible to visualize. Charity in the past handled this as best it could. Now it has become an expectation. Does a welfare check help someone get a job. No it doesn't. It creates a pool of non workers within the state who provide little or nothing.
How does this get drawn to a close?

Welfare breeds more welfare babies...

 

[The T]

Lets not forget we're all not the same...

We all have different talents, we all have different intelligent levels, we all have different skills etc...

The truth is that we're all not the same.

Sure, treating the janitor the same as the doctor is good for the janitor but it's not good for the doctor....

Why even bother going the extra mile as an individual under the socialist model??? it won't get you anything.... And I think that extra effort is what built the US and what keeps the United States on top of the world - because individuals are rewarded for their effort and their extra work...

Not to mention that we don't all have the same desires. Not everyone WANTS to be a hugely powerful and rich business mogul. Does that mean that someone who DOES want to should be prevented from doing so and forced to live like those who are perfectly happy being middle-class?

Agreed...

I'm sure many are more than content with their position.

Not to mention just because one is wealthy - that does't mean they're greedy. Success doesn't imply anything about an individual or their intent on society or economy.

I suppose OWS has a different perspective...

Success means thet're working hard under the conditions they are given...and working hard to succeed.

They must in the Statist world be demonized.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Not to mention that we don't all have the same desires. Not everyone WANTS to be a hugely powerful and rich business mogul. Does that mean that someone who DOES want to should be prevented from doing so and forced to live like those who are perfectly happy being middle-class?

Agreed...

I'm sure many are more than content with their position.

Not to mention just because one is wealthy - that does't mean they're greedy. Success doesn't imply anything about an individual or their intent on society or economy.

I suppose OWS has a different perspective...

Success means thet're working hard under the conditions they are given...and working hard to succeed.

They must in the Statist world be demonized.

Or even those who strike gold via investments....

I suppose ones position in life is more of a state of mind than a generic position.

I guess that is just the way I view reality - or at least try.

 

[The T]

Agreed...

I'm sure many are more than content with their position.

Not to mention just because one is wealthy - that does't mean they're greedy. Success doesn't imply anything about an individual or their intent on society or economy.

I suppose OWS has a different perspective...

Success means thet're working hard under the conditions they are given...and working hard to succeed.

They must in the Statist world be demonized.

Or even those who strike gold via investments....

I suppose ones position in life is more of a state of mind than a generic position.

I guess that is just the way I view reality - or at least try.

It's a good view. Fear not.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Success means thet're working hard under the conditions they are given...and working hard to succeed.

They must in the Statist world be demonized.

Or even those who strike gold via investments....

I suppose ones position in life is more of a state of mind than a generic position.

I guess that is just the way I view reality - or at least try.

It's a good view. Fear not.

Truth is I know quite a few upper-middle class individuals who are pretty frugal.... They could afford a BMW but they don't want a BMW, they want a reliable 5k auto.....

That's what they want - God bless them...

Their intent is to save for their family, cant blame them really.

 

[The T]

Or even those who strike gold via investments....

I suppose ones position in life is more of a state of mind than a generic position.

I guess that is just the way I view reality - or at least try.

It's a good view. Fear not.

Truth is I know quite a few upper-middle class individuals who are pretty frugal.... They could afford a BMW but they don't want a BMW, they want a reliable 5k auto.....

That's what they want - God bless them...

Their intent is to save for their family, cant blame them really.

Practicality. The American spirit lives.

 

[Mr.Nick]

It's a good view. Fear not.

Truth is I know quite a few upper-middle class individuals who are pretty frugal.... They could afford a BMW but they don't want a BMW, they want a reliable 5k auto.....

That's what they want - God bless them...

Their intent is to save for their family, cant blame them really.

Practicality. The American spirit lives.

Well I suppose modesty is humbleness..

I don't think anyone really needs a BMW or marble bathroom and kitchen counters..