Canadian man dies after being tasered

[Gunny]

VANCOUVER, British Columbia - A Canadian man died Saturday, four days after police used a Taser stun-gun on him because he reportedly was acting erratically in a store, police said. He was the third person to die in recent weeks in Canada after being shocked by the hand-held weapon.

Robert Knipstrom, 36, died in a hospital after two officers used pepper spray, a Taser and their batons to subdue the British Columbia resident. Police earlier said Knipstrom was extremely agitated, aggressive and combative with the two officers who responded. He was conscious and speaking when he was taken to the hospital.

The cause of death has yet to be determined. Although a Taser was used against Knipstrom, it was not immediately clear what role, if any, it played in his death, said Inspector Brendan Fitzpatrick.

more ... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21956685/

I get it. Man gets tasered and drops dead but cause of death is unknown.

Elecrical shock has such an individual affect on people I am of the opinion using taser's is playing Russian Roulette with the lives of others.

 

[82Marine89]

The cause of death has yet to be determined. Although a Taser was used against Knipstrom, it was not immediately clear what role, if any, it played in his death, said Inspector Brendan Fitzpatrick.

How about it fused his brain cells together?

 

[pegwinn]

I get it. Man gets tasered and drops dead but cause of death is unknown.

Elecrical shock has such an individual affect on people I am of the opinion using taser's is playing Russian Roulette with the lives of others.

I don't comprende this at all. There were two cops, pepper spray, batons, and a taser. WTF was this guy on that it took all that to take him down? I'd think that two trained guys with batons should be able to handle it. Especially if those batons were PR24 types and the cops were well drilled.

 

[Diuretic]

What DID we ever do before Tasers? Oh yes, I remember, we used physical force.

 

[Waterrescuedude]

I think that yes once in a while someone is gonna die from it. But it does also save lives. We had a case in Reno,Nevada where a mentally unstable guy was swinging a hammer at some people he had escaped the loony bin and the cops responded well they hadn't had tasers yet so they shot and killed him. Had the tasers been around maybe they would not have had to use lethal force. I say use the tasers. Shit happens if they wouldn't have given the cop a reason to use the taser they would have been just fine.

 

[Diuretic]

The problem isn't in the use of tasers, it's the too-soon use of tasers.

Your example of the police having no option but to shoot and kill is a good one. That's exactly where a taser may - I stress "may" because sometimes you just have to jump from empty-hand to gun-in-hand without going through the other options - have been appropriate.

It seems to me that the taser is being used where physical force (hands-on, grappling) should be used. Ask any cop how many times they've had to go hands-on with someone as to how many times they've had to go for a firearm. The hands-on can happen several times in a shift. If tasers are being used instead of hands-on then deployment rate is going to be higher than it should be. Since the deployment rate is higher than it should be then it stands to reason that, given the law of averages, someone is going to get tased who has a pre-existing health condition which may kill them whereas a hands-on may not have.

 

[pegwinn]

It seems to me that the taser is being used where physical force (hands-on, grappling) should be used. Ask any cop how many times they've had to go hands-on with someone as to how many times they've had to go for a firearm.

A lot of Cops are young enough that physical confrontations are alien to them. They didn't grow up beating up bullies on the playground. Instead they got group hugs. Now they have the training, but the taser is easier to go for and less dangerous to a guy who may not have much experience in taking a punch.

 

[Dr Grump]

I was a cop in NZ. We were not armed (only our sergeants were). I remember six of us with PR24's taking on a guy on Angel Dust. It took all six of us to handcuff him. Tasers are a much better option than guns. Plus when people are hyped they have more strength. The adrenal gland goes into overdrive. You've all heard the story of guys lifting massive amounts of weight when people are trapped under objects. Same thing.

 

[pegwinn]

I was a cop in NZ. We were not armed (only our sergeants were). I remember six of us with PR24's taking on a guy on Angel Dust. It took all six of us to handcuff him. Tasers are a much better option than guns. Plus when people are hyped they have more strength. The adrenal gland goes into overdrive. You've all heard the story of guys lifting massive amounts of weight when people are trapped under objects. Same thing.

I've heard stories like that as well. I wasn't a cop, but I got to play with PR24 as cross training. I can see you working hard not to outright kill the guy using those methods. Glad to see you apparently came out of it alright.

 

[Dr Grump]

I've heard stories like that as well. I wasn't a cop, but I got to play with PR24 as cross training. I can see you working hard not to outright kill the guy using those methods. Glad to see you apparently came out of it alright.

I was accidentally hit in training with a PR24....shit it hurt! Right on the funny bone.
Well some would argue the toss of the coin (whether I came out of it all right!! )

 

[Diuretic]

A lot of Cops are young enough that physical confrontations are alien to them. They didn't grow up beating up bullies on the playground. Instead they got group hugs. Now they have the training, but the taser is easier to go for and less dangerous to a guy who may not have much experience in taking a punch.

I'm actually a bit worried they're concerned about mussing their hair

I hadn't thought of that though. But in the Academy (here) they get to work on the mats, grappling and grabbing. When I went through though we got a dose of just about every martial art known to mankind including....boxing. I remember boxing with a colleague who couldn't help himself, his eyes used to roll over like a White Pointer and he'd start flailing, not boxing. He went to forensic (not for a checkup, to work).

I have had this debate elsewhere (police forum) and received the response that young cops are worried about getting bitten and Hep (various strains) and AIDS. Fair enough I reckon but for me that only explains oc spray use instead of grappling (I'm a bit grumpy about that too but it's another argument). We don't have tasers (our tactical unit does) and we're not going to get them with all the bad publicity, I can tell you.

 

[Diuretic]

I was a cop in NZ. We were not armed (only our sergeants were). I remember six of us with PR24's taking on a guy on Angel Dust. It took all six of us to handcuff him. Tasers are a much better option than guns. Plus when people are hyped they have more strength. The adrenal gland goes into overdrive. You've all heard the story of guys lifting massive amounts of weight when people are trapped under objects. Same thing.

We had our PR24s taken away (we got them well after NZPol did - Red Squad and all that) but all it took was one petite female officer to break a dirtbag's femur and that was it, snatched from us all. They gave us that bloody ASP instead.

First time I went over there Dr Bob was running the Association, thankfully he didn't wear his kaftan when he picked us up at Wellington airport

 

[pegwinn]

I'm actually a bit worried they're concerned about mussing their hair

I hadn't thought of that though. But in the Academy (here) they get to work on the mats, grappling and grabbing. When I went through though we got a dose of just about every martial art known to mankind including....boxing. I remember boxing with a colleague who couldn't help himself, his eyes used to roll over like a White Pointer and he'd start flailing, not boxing. He went to forensic (not for a checkup, to work).

We have had this problem in the Corps as well. The young ones are motivated, type A, and very well trained. But many never, ever, had been in a fistfight as a kid. During training we have to remove the natural fear of actually taking a punch and reinstill a mans natural physical aggressiveness. Training on the mat helps. The MCMAP program is awesome. It was just really gathering steam when I retired in 03. According to my daughter and son-in-law it really is popular with the troops and leadership alike. Fortunitly for us, Marines are bald, and don't worry about mussing the hair.

 

[Dr Grump]

We had our PR24s taken away (we got them well after NZPol did - Red Squad and all that) but all it took was one petite female officer to break a dirtbag's femur and that was it, snatched from us all. They gave us that bloody ASP instead.

First time I went over there Dr Bob was running the Association, thankfully he didn't wear his kaftan when he picked us up at Wellington airport

Yeah, but you guys have guns!!

Must say, freaked out in Sydney, sitting in a bank and security guards walked in wearing guns. Police I can understand (kinda), but security guards??

 

[Diuretic]

We have had this problem in the Corps as well. The young ones are motivated, type A, and very well trained. But many never, ever, had been in a fistfight as a kid. During training we have to remove the natural fear of actually taking a punch and reinstill a mans natural physical aggressiveness. Training on the mat helps. The MCMAP program is awesome. It was just really gathering steam when I retired in 03. According to my daughter and son-in-law it really is popular with the troops and leadership alike. Fortunitly for us, Marines are bald, and don't worry about mussing the hair.

Thanks for the reference, I checked it and there's a Wikipedia article - nickname...semper fu....

Looks really interesting.

I had my fair share of fights in the schoolyard and the sporting field but I still remember the very first time I got punched in the face on duty, I still remember seeing the fist coming at me from the left and realising I was going to wear a punch. Frankly I was glad it happened early in my career, it got me ready for the rest of it (I worked for some years in the outback in a fight a night opal town)

 

[Diuretic]

Yeah, but you guys have guns!!

Must say, freaked out in Sydney, sitting in a bank and security guards walked in wearing guns. Police I can understand (kinda), but security guards??

Yeah but we have to file a report if we so much as pull the weapon out of the holster and level it.

Security guards, yep, they're entitled to wear them here as well (as you would know different states have different laws) but only if their duty encompasses property protection. If they're doing CPP they're not allowed to carry a firearm. All to the gods of money and property.

 

[pegwinn]

Thanks for the reference, I checked it and there's a Wikipedia article - nickname...semper fu....

Looks really interesting.

I had my fair share of fights in the schoolyard and the sporting field but I still remember the very first time I got punched in the face on duty, I still remember seeing the fist coming at me from the left and realising I was going to wear a punch. Frankly I was glad it happened early in my career, it got me ready for the rest of it (I worked for some years in the outback in a fight a night opal town)

Oh it was interesting all right. Line Training was styalized and formalised like the established katas of various martial arts. And, line training focused primarily on killing. The MCMAP does teach one to kill, but it also teaches restraint. What really ticked me off was I had tested out for two belts and never got certified due to a lack of standardized certifications, training time, and of course the war.

As to taking the punch, yeah that is an eye opener. Jarheads call it "body hardening". Essentially you practice hitting each other. Considering I was training with my own troops, the training I had in LINE came in handy during the freestyles. It MCMAP also establishes a bit of credibility for ones seniors which doesn't hurt a bit.