Can There Be Democracy Under Islam?

[geauxtohell]

It seems that no one has clean hands.

Well maybe the Wiccans. Have they ever attacked anyone?

One of my nieces is a Wiccan. She's bi-polar. She attacked me because I told here Robert Redford was a hypocrite.

Hmmm. I wonder if that is common.

For bipolars in a manic phase that are off their meds? Yes.

For wiccans as a whole? I don't think so.

 

[geauxtohell]

A person's finincal status has nothing to do with their commitment to fight against oppression and injustice for their fellow man.

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were two of the wealthiest men in America when they decided to sacrifice everything and launch the Revolution against the British.

Sure it does.

You'll notice it wasn't Bin Laden flying those planes into buildings.

 

[Sunni Man]

A person's finincal status has nothing to do with their commitment to fight against oppression and injustice for their fellow man.

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were two of the wealthiest men in America when they decided to sacrifice everything and launch the Revolution against the British.

Sure it does.

You'll notice it wasn't Bin Laden flying those planes into buildings.

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson also didn't do the actual fighting but directed the operations against the British.

Both men were considered terrorists and would have been executed if caught.

 

[Charles Stucker]

If they are a minority they make babies and immigrate to try and become the majority.
As long as they are a minority they scream about persecution of the oppressed minorities.

So soon as they become a majority democracy vanishes along with the rights of non-believers.

You made this same claim on another thread.

I then asked you to provide proof of this ever happening.

You came up with zip/nada/nothing

Now you are posting the same BS once again.

So again I ask; when and where has this EVER happened???

Islamic Minority creating trouble because their "rights" are not sacrosanct - Britain, Germany, France - do you need more contemporary examples?
Islamic majority with democracy that protects the rights of other religions - missing from the table. Go ahead talk about some tiny Islamic country no one has ever heard of or some apocryphal tale of Christians being allowed to freely worship in an Islamic country, everyone here knows the truth.
Islam is a religion for brigands.
Loot and pillage in Allah's name and be blessed in the afterlife.

 

[antagon]

And it will remain so until justice is established. There would be no need to fight if Muslims weren't oppressed by others as well as fellow "Muslims."

muslims need to get a goddamn job. if you get up and work, instead of handycrafting foreign flags for demonstrations, there wouldnt be an issue at all. muslim nations ought to concentrate on developing some employment and prosperity, instead of anger and ignorance.

ive been to kuwait, saudi arabia, egypt, dubai and jordan. i found these countries (in the cities) to be functional and respectible. i put that up to employment and industry.

Good.

WHy is it Muslims aren't fighting oppression in their own countries first? Was there a more oppressive person than Saddam Hussein? And yet no one raised a hand against him until Bush overthrew him. The result is the Iraqis are the only non-oppressed Muslims under Muslim rule.
What about Iran? Saudi Arabia? Kuwait? Syria? Egypt? Jordan? All corrupt oppressive governments.
Maybe because if the raised a hand they'd find their asses under the jail, unlike Israel and the U.S. where they get accorded rights. It's like criminals picking on little old ladies instead of burly biker dudes.

believe it or not, i think that some of the social contracts of the nations we'd mentioned are being fulfilled. thats why i think that there's little desire to affect change in the kingdoms. the democracies do have anti-government activism, because i think the constituents and the govt dont know what democracy is and wont let it work. witness iran, or nigeria (a non-islamist example).

i still think that marching out in the streets to overthrow your govenment is a characteristic of unemployment and lack of self-determination through industry and opportunity. dont think for a second that if the US or israel had 20years of 50-60% unemployment that we would be any different at all.

 

[antagon]

If they are a minority they make babies and immigrate to try and become the majority.
As long as they are a minority they scream about persecution of the oppressed minorities.

So soon as they become a majority democracy vanishes along with the rights of non-believers.

You made this same claim on another thread.

I then asked you to provide proof of this ever happening.

You came up with zip/nada/nothing

Now you are posting the same BS once again.

So again I ask; when and where has this EVER happened???

Islamic Minority creating trouble because their "rights" are not sacrosanct - Britain, Germany, France - do you need more contemporary examples?
Islamic majority with democracy that protects the rights of other religions - missing from the table. Go ahead talk about some tiny Islamic country no one has ever heard of or some apocryphal tale of Christians being allowed to freely worship in an Islamic country, everyone here knows the truth.
Islam is a religion for brigands.
Loot and pillage in Allah's name and be blessed in the afterlife.

paradox is that iraq was a secular 'democracy' run by a minority government.

 

[geauxtohell]

A person's finincal status has nothing to do with their commitment to fight against oppression and injustice for their fellow man.

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were two of the wealthiest men in America when they decided to sacrifice everything and launch the Revolution against the British.

Sure it does.

You'll notice it wasn't Bin Laden flying those planes into buildings.

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson also didn't do the actual fighting but directed the operations against the British.

Both men were considered terrorists and would have been executed if caught.

Washington certainly fought. He might have not been a rifleman, but he was there.

My point is only that with any force, there are those who deem themselves too important to be a grunt.

We have them here too. Wolfewitz, Cheney, et al. all consider themselves brilliant tactical minds. All absent when it came time to carry a rifle in the wars of their days.

No wonder we were fucked. An infantry private could tell you exactly what would happen in Iraq. Why? Because a Private is forced to contemplate issues like how he would fight against a superior force.

 

[Samson]

And it will remain so until justice is established. There would be no need to fight if Muslims weren't oppressed by others as well as fellow "Muslims."

muslims need to get a goddamn job. if you get up and work, instead of handycrafting foreign flags for demonstrations, there wouldnt be an issue at all. muslim nations ought to concentrate on developing some employment and prosperity, instead of anger and ignorance.

ive been to kuwait, saudi arabia, egypt, dubai and jordan. i found these countries (in the cities) to be functional and respectible. i put that up to employment and industry.

Its difficult to be industrious when you gotta go ass-up in the direction of Mecca 5 times a day, and are living off sheep offal gruel.

 

[Samson]

Single best word to describe Islam is Hypocracy

Charles, I realize you're not the sharpest tool in the shead, so try to give this question some thought.......maybe wait 48 hours until you can absorb it:

What religion cannot be best described as hypocritical?

 

[The Rabbi]

Was there a more oppressive person than Saddam Hussein?

The international human rights criminals Benjamin Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon make Saddam look like a choir boy.

And Liberace makes you look like John Wayne, twinkletoes.

 

[Kalam]

And Islam defines oppression as "someone else is in charge."

"Oppression" in an Islamic sense refers to limits placed on the freedom of Muslims. If you were correct, I doubt that part of the first generation of Muslims would have taken refuge under the Christian negus of Abyssinia to escape persecution in Makkah. But hey, who needs history when you can invent your own "facts", right?

If they are a minority they make babies and immigrate to try and become the majority.

Oh? I'd love to see evidence of a massive movement in Islam that involves gaining dominance by immigrating in droves. I think you wrapped the tin foil a bit too tight.

As long as they are a minority they scream about persecution of the oppressed minorities.

Yeah, Muslims in America do that all the time, right?

So soon as they become a majority democracy vanishes along with the rights of non-believers.

Where has this happened?

Single best word to describe Islam is Hypocracy

For your benefit:
Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com

The kuffar obsess over Islam and attempt to spread lies about it because they're fearful the fact that it has been growing rapidly since the arrival of the final Messenger (SAWS).

 

[Charles Stucker]

And Islam defines oppression as "someone else is in charge."

"Oppression" in an Islamic sense refers to limits placed on the freedom of Muslims. If you were correct, I doubt that part of the first generation of Muslims would have taken refuge under the Christian negus of Abyssinia to escape persecution in Makkah. But hey, who needs history when you can invent your own "facts", right?

"Limits placed on the freedom of Muslims"
You could not have said it better. Unfortunately as seen in the case which was in the news from the UK recently Muslims call it an infringement on their freedom when someone disagrees with them about Mohamed's divine inspiration.
Though given that "Allah" prohibited alcohol and drugs from Muslims because they are so harmful, one must wonder how he forgot to include tobacco.
You fact fits right in with Muslim tradition - take advantage of Christian charity then turn on them when Muslims have the strength.

The kuffar obsess over Islam and attempt to spread lies about it because they're fearful the fact that it has been growing rapidly since the arrival of the final Messenger (SAWS).

Not that rapidly. IN the last few centuries most of the growth has been purely from population growth. Take all the Islamic immigrants out of the USA and I doubt that you could fill a university campus (call it 40,000 students) with the home grown ones.

Islam has too many internal inconsistencies. If the Koran is Allah's word, and Allah knows all, why is the Koran really good at social engineering in the time it was created, but misses everything which has come up since? Science has left Islam behind, so has industry. Islam may have a lot of ignorant peons who continue to worship, and a fair number of gullible fools who are taken in (also known as converted) but modern education, devoid of mysticism, is the bane of Islam, and as soon as the Islamic states lose their power the religion will soon lose its followers - look at all the cases of children raised int eh USA who recant Islam; they learned better by watching everyone around them.

 

[antagon]

And it will remain so until justice is established. There would be no need to fight if Muslims weren't oppressed by others as well as fellow "Muslims."

muslims need to get a goddamn job. if you get up and work, instead of handycrafting foreign flags for demonstrations, there wouldnt be an issue at all. muslim nations ought to concentrate on developing some employment and prosperity, instead of anger and ignorance.

ive been to kuwait, saudi arabia, egypt, dubai and jordan. i found these countries (in the cities) to be functional and respectible. i put that up to employment and industry.

Its difficult to be industrious when you gotta go ass-up in the direction of Mecca 5 times a day, and are living off sheep offal gruel.

hehee... still happens, though. markedly more in progressive arab nations. theres just such little effort put into economic development in the kingdoms.

 

[Kalam]

"Limits placed on the freedom of Muslims"
You could not have said it better. Unfortunately as seen in the case which was in the news from the UK recently Muslims call it an infringement on their freedom when someone disagrees with them about Mohamed's divine inspiration.

Oh, really? This is a belief that a significant number of Muslims hold, and you're able to demonstrate this? God, it's like I'm teaching you to walk or something.

Though given that "Allah" prohibited alcohol and drugs from Muslims because they are so harmful, one must wonder how he forgot to include tobacco.

Uh... what?

You fact fits right in with Muslim tradition - take advantage of Christian charity then turn on them when Muslims have the strength.

Provide a specific example of this happening.

Not that rapidly. IN the last few centuries most of the growth has been purely from population growth.

No shit.

Islam has too many internal inconsistencies. If the Koran is Allah's word, and Allah knows all, why is the Koran really good at social engineering in the time it was created, but misses everything which has come up since?

This is an opinion that stems from your ignorance of Divine law, not a fact. Opinions, I'm afraid, are inadmissible as proof for your claims, particularly when they're formed based on little or no knowledge of that which is being indicted.

Science has left Islam behind, so has industry.

The notion that any aspect of Islam impedes scientific or industrial development is dim-witted beyond belief. Even if we were to ignore the fact that the Middle East was easily the most scientifically advanced area of the world for centuries after it was united under the banner of truth, anyone who is even cursorily familiar with the science of ahadith and the largely empirical nature of the Qur'an knows that this statement of yours can be dismissed as yet another product of your ignorance and kufr.

Islam may have a lot of ignorant peons who continue to worship, and a fair number of gullible fools who are taken in (also known as converted) but modern education, devoid of mysticism, is the bane of Islam, and as soon as the Islamic states lose their power the religion will soon lose its followers - look at all the cases of children raised int eh USA who recant Islam; they learned better by watching everyone around them.

Compare the number of apostates to the number of converts, even in the US alone. In my case, education and familiarity with the multitude of philosophical and religious outlooks only verified my belief that Islam is a way of life superior to all others.

 

[Kalam]

muslims need to get a goddamn job. if you get up and work, instead of handycrafting foreign flags for demonstrations, there wouldnt be an issue at all.

I've never taken part in a political demonstration.

 

[Samson]

muslims need to get a goddamn job. if you get up and work, instead of handycrafting foreign flags for demonstrations, there wouldnt be an issue at all.

I've never taken part in a political demonstration.

Are you sure you're a Muslim?

 

[Kalam]

muslims need to get a goddamn job. if you get up and work, instead of handycrafting foreign flags for demonstrations, there wouldnt be an issue at all.

I've never taken part in a political demonstration.

Are you sure you're a Muslim?

Quite.

 

[antagon]

muslims need to get a goddamn job. if you get up and work, instead of handycrafting foreign flags for demonstrations, there wouldnt be an issue at all.

I've never taken part in a political demonstration.

are you broke, gullible, unemployed and uneducated?

are you going to strap a dynamite vest to yourself and blow you and your fellow countrymen into the beyond?

theres an at risk demographic for stupidity. i think islam just puts a flavor as to what an idiot might do. where i grew up, people would get into gun fights over the street they lived on and the color of their clothes.

the same demography was at play, but with a different mantra. muslim fundamentalists cant recruit pawns successfully outside that broke-ass idle idiot demographic.

 

[Kalam]

muslim fundamentalists cant recruit pawns successfully outside that broke-ass idle idiot demographic.

His father was a lawyer, educated in both sharia and civil law. His mother came from a wealthy farming and trading family and was also educated. He was the only son, but he had two older sisters who were both well-educated and successful in their careers—one as a medical doctor and the other as a professor. In 1985, he entered Cairo University, where he studied engineering. As one of the highest-scoring students, he was admitted into the very selective architecture program during his senior year. In addition to his regular courses, he studied English at the American University in Cairo. In 1990, he graduated with a degree in architecture. For several months after graduating, he worked at the Urban Development Center in Cairo, where he worked on architectural, planning, and building design. After he graduated, he also studied German at the Goethe-Institut in Cairo. He traveled to Germany in July 1992. There, he enrolled in the urban planning graduate program at the Technical University of Hamburg-Harburg.

Nine years later, Mohammed Atta flew American Airlines Flight 11 into the World Trade Center's north tower.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Muslims can be democratic in being practicioneers of the tyranny of majority; however, because Islam cannot tolerate minority dissent, Muslims can never righteously practice a constitutional republic that protects minority rights.