Can Public Option Work?

[AVG-JOE]

CBO Rebuts Pros, Cons of Public Option - WSJ.com

Anyway, your "answers" are absurd and betray an ignorance of business that is profound. If you think gov't employees are somehow going to be more efficient than private employees I'd like you to recount your last visit to the DMV.

It's not the clerks and bureaucrats that make the difference - the folks answering the phone and inputting data into terminals are going to be pretty much the same faces in either a private or public bureaucracy; the question is: Should their managers be motivated by profit, or by job performance creating the best service according to the rules established by our representatives in congress?

 

[Care4all]

CBO Rebuts Pros, Cons of Public Option - WSJ.com

Anyway, your "answers" are absurd and betray an ignorance of business that is profound. If you think gov't employees are somehow going to be more efficient than private employees I'd like you to recount your last visit to the DMV.

the article makes some good points, pros and cons...

i'm living in one of those states that would benefit and have savings as the article mentions....maybe the senate version where states can opt out would be better for all?

i have no problems with negotiation of rates slightly above medicare determined rates...

if our gvt would have just done this type of regulation, there would be no need for this monsterous bill imo... that would have been reform enough....

though at that point, it puts the ow-nous on the hospitals and drug makers to cut their inefficiencies, unnecessary expenses and advertising, and overhead....in order to be profitable or to break even if a nonprofit hospital....

 

[The Rabbi]

CBO Rebuts Pros, Cons of Public Option - WSJ.com

Anyway, your "answers" are absurd and betray an ignorance of business that is profound. If you think gov't employees are somehow going to be more efficient than private employees I'd like you to recount your last visit to the DMV.

It's not the clerks and bureaucrats that make the difference - the folks answering the phone and inputting data into terminals are going to be pretty much the same faces in either a private or public bureaucracy; the question is: Should their managers be motivated by profit, or by job performance creating the best service according to the rules established by our representatives in congress?

No they are not the same. I see you dont spend much time dealing with gov't workers.
Gov't workers largely cannot be fired. Thus they have no incentive to perform well. And since gov't jobs typically pay less than private jobs (that is the trade-off--less pay but more security) they also attract a lower caliber of worker.
So whatever "standard" Congress establishes is irrelevant. Customer service is going to suck because it always sucks since without incentive to perform well they dont.

 

[oreo]

President Obama's Healthcare Reform 'Public Option' Explained - LAist

I'm a little confused when it comes to the public option debate. I dont know if I should support it or not.

This website shows a nifty chart explaining how public option would work, which was very helpful. But I still can't ignore how public option reminds me of socialized medicine. What about the death panel debate, the limitations on doctors and individual patient options? Not to mention the HUGE cost for this small part to healthcare reform. My paycheck is as thin enough with the other governmental programs I still pay for. So is public option worth supporting, or are u like me; a little skeptical. thanks for the comments!!

A question to answer your question: Do you believe the Federal Government has done a great job getting out & despering H1N1 vaccinations, aka the Swine Flu?

Something they knew about since last spring? Millions of Americans waiting in line for hours--only to be told they ran out of the vaccine--after standing in line for hours.

Can you imagine them with your health care--

 

[AVG-JOE]

CBO Rebuts Pros, Cons of Public Option - WSJ.com

Anyway, your "answers" are absurd and betray an ignorance of business that is profound. If you think gov't employees are somehow going to be more efficient than private employees I'd like you to recount your last visit to the DMV.

It's not the clerks and bureaucrats that make the difference - the folks answering the phone and inputting data into terminals are going to be pretty much the same faces in either a private or public bureaucracy; the question is: Should their managers be motivated by profit, or by job performance creating the best service according to the rules established by our representatives in congress?

No they are not the same. I see you dont spend much time dealing with gov't workers.
Gov't workers largely cannot be fired. Thus they have no incentive to perform well. And since gov't jobs typically pay less than private jobs (that is the trade-off--less pay but more security) they also attract a lower caliber of worker.
So whatever "standard" Congress establishes is irrelevant. Customer service is going to suck because it always sucks since without incentive to perform well they dont.

Be careful how you generalize..... Do you realize that you just called the men and women of the US Military, all employees of the Federal Government, sub-standard to their privately employed counterparts?

There are a lot of reasons for people to choose serving in government over working in the private sector - money is just not too high on the list, at least for employees who serve outside of D.C.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The problem here is third party payment not the health care system in general.

Why is it that we know the costs of everything we purchse except for medical services and products?

Think about it. We have effectively insulated the medical industry from market forces. Is it any wonder that prices keep rising?

Don't you think that if we had the option to look around for a deal on a CAT scan or a blood test etc that we would choose the clinic that provided that service for the least cost?

 

[The Rabbi]

It's not the clerks and bureaucrats that make the difference - the folks answering the phone and inputting data into terminals are going to be pretty much the same faces in either a private or public bureaucracy; the question is: Should their managers be motivated by profit, or by job performance creating the best service according to the rules established by our representatives in congress?

No they are not the same. I see you dont spend much time dealing with gov't workers.
Gov't workers largely cannot be fired. Thus they have no incentive to perform well. And since gov't jobs typically pay less than private jobs (that is the trade-off--less pay but more security) they also attract a lower caliber of worker.
So whatever "standard" Congress establishes is irrelevant. Customer service is going to suck because it always sucks since without incentive to perform well they dont.

Be careful how you generalize..... Do you realize that you just called the men and women of the US Military, all employees of the Federal Government, sub-standard to their privately employed counterparts?

There are a lot of reasons for people to choose serving in government over working in the private sector - money is just not too high on the list, at least for employees who serve outside of D.C.

I'm fine with that.
Of course active duty soldiers will not be the ones administering your health care plan. So it is really a red herring.
But you knew that of course.

People tend to choose bureaucrat office jobs for the reasons I mentioned, job security and guaranteed benefits. They are willing to less salary in return. The result of that is you get second rate people.

 

[AVG-JOE]

No they are not the same. I see you dont spend much time dealing with gov't workers.
Gov't workers largely cannot be fired. Thus they have no incentive to perform well. And since gov't jobs typically pay less than private jobs (that is the trade-off--less pay but more security) they also attract a lower caliber of worker.
So whatever "standard" Congress establishes is irrelevant. Customer service is going to suck because it always sucks since without incentive to perform well they dont.

Be careful how you generalize..... Do you realize that you just called the men and women of the US Military, all employees of the Federal Government, sub-standard to their privately employed counterparts?

There are a lot of reasons for people to choose serving in government over working in the private sector - money is just not too high on the list, at least for employees who serve outside of D.C.

I'm fine with that.
Of course active duty soldiers will not be the ones administering your health care plan. So it is really a red herring.
But you knew that of course.

People tend to choose bureaucrat office jobs for the reasons I mentioned, job security and guaranteed benefits. They are willing to less salary in return. The result of that is you get second rate people.

Bullshit, Man! If your personality is geared toward marketing, a job behind a government data terminal is going to drive you crazy, but if making sense out of data is a job you dig, there are lots of opportunities in government right up your alley.

There are lots of jobs in both sectors that would bore me to tears - fortunately those jobs are perfect for someone else and we are all free to choose.

It is not a matter of 'right' and 'wrong', it is finding a gig that one is capable of handling and willing to do for the pay offered.

Thank (insert your preferred Deity here) we all don't have to do the same damn thing for a living!

 

[Christopher]

You dont get it.
Yes, corporations do have some waste and inefficieny built into them. But they have incentives to remove them, especially when revenue is flagging, like now.
Gov't has no incentive to remove waste and inefficiency. Gov't agencies have far more waste than any private corporation does. Look at the military. Look at FEMA. Why will a public corporation of health insurance be different? It won't. It will be worse, not better.
In any case, how much does that waste and inefficiency amount to? The answer is that amounts to as much as it would cost to get rid of it.

As someone who provides consulting for government agencies, I have definitely seen this first hand. I had a co-worker tell me that after he began working for the County that his supervisor told him to slow down after only a few months. He was getting too much done and making everyone else look bad. I think military personnel tend to be better, though.

 

[Care4all]

The problem here is third party payment not the health care system in general.

Why is it that we know the costs of everything we purchse except for medical services and products?

Think about it. We have effectively insulated the medical industry from market forces. Is it any wonder that prices keep rising?

Don't you think that if we had the option to look around for a deal on a CAT scan or a blood test etc that we would choose the clinic that provided that service for the least cost?

yes, it is insulated from market forces...and insurance companies insulate....they should be wiped out.... all gvt tax write-offs for businesses and individuals for health insurance should be wiped out, Medicare for seniors wiped out, and emergency room care paid by our gvt wiped out, and all research and development gvt grants wiped out, and all rules closing the purchase of drugs worldwide be wiped out...

ONLY THEN could we truly have a situation where market forces to keep prices lower would work...

we are so far gone in subsidies, even without this health care insurance bill....there is no way that all those things above will stop being funded by our gvt....not imo.... so, if they will not cut all those programs mentioned then what's next? can anything else other than price caps on fees/hospital/doctor charges work?

 

[Skull Pilot]

The problem here is third party payment not the health care system in general.

Why is it that we know the costs of everything we purchse except for medical services and products?

Think about it. We have effectively insulated the medical industry from market forces. Is it any wonder that prices keep rising?

Don't you think that if we had the option to look around for a deal on a CAT scan or a blood test etc that we would choose the clinic that provided that service for the least cost?

yes, it is insulated from market forces...and insurance companies insulate....they should be wiped out.... all gvt tax write-offs for businesses and individuals for health insurance should be wiped out, Medicare for seniors wiped out, and emergency room care paid by our gvt wiped out, and all research and development gvt grants wiped out, and all rules closing the purchase of drugs worldwide be wiped out...

ONLY THEN could we truly have a situation where market forces to keep prices lower would work...

we are so far gone in subsidies, even without this health care insurance bill....there is no way that all those things above will stop being funded by our gvt....not imo.... so, if they will not cut all those programs mentioned then what's next? can anything else other than price caps on fees/hospital/doctor charges work?

One could argue that the ability to shop around for the best price would bring down the cost of insurance.

Take auto insurance as an example. if I have under X dollars of claims against my collision coverage I can avoid a surcharge or at least only get assessed a lesser surcharge.

If I need a fender repaired I am free to find a guy who will do it for the lowest price thereby keeping my premiums lower. We didn't have to abolish car insurance to do it.

Similarly, if my health insurance policy worked so that I was free to find the best deal on a CAT scan then my insurer would have less to pay out and premiums would go down.

there is no need to abolish insurance to implement this simple strategy.

 

[Care4all]

The problem here is third party payment not the health care system in general.

Why is it that we know the costs of everything we purchse except for medical services and products?

Think about it. We have effectively insulated the medical industry from market forces. Is it any wonder that prices keep rising?

Don't you think that if we had the option to look around for a deal on a CAT scan or a blood test etc that we would choose the clinic that provided that service for the least cost?

yes, it is insulated from market forces...and insurance companies insulate....they should be wiped out.... all gvt tax write-offs for businesses and individuals for health insurance should be wiped out, Medicare for seniors wiped out, and emergency room care paid by our gvt wiped out, and all research and development gvt grants wiped out, and all rules closing the purchase of drugs worldwide be wiped out...

ONLY THEN could we truly have a situation where market forces to keep prices lower would work...

we are so far gone in subsidies, even without this health care insurance bill....there is no way that all those things above will stop being funded by our gvt....not imo.... so, if they will not cut all those programs mentioned then what's next? can anything else other than price caps on fees/hospital/doctor charges work?

One could argue that the ability to shop around for the best price would bring down the cost of insurance.

Take auto insurance as an example. if I have under X dollars of claims against my collision coverage I can avoid a surcharge or at least only get assessed a lesser surcharge.

If I need a fender repaired I am free to find a guy who will do it for the lowest price thereby keeping my premiums lower. We didn't have to abolish car insurance to do it.

Similarly, if my health insurance policy worked so that I was free to find the best deal on a CAT scan then my insurer would have less to pay out and premiums would go down.

there is no need to abolish insurance to implement this simple strategy.

right now your insurance company is doing the negotiating....if the hospital charges a thousand for the cat-scan, negotiated with the insurance company to only charge $600 for it.....

this hasn't brought the costs of healthcare to where it is affordable...even though they are getting 40% off of the catscan.... prices are still too high.

insurance companies do negotiate for the BEST PRICE already, only upfront....and prices are still through the roof....?

 

[Skull Pilot]

yes, it is insulated from market forces...and insurance companies insulate....they should be wiped out.... all gvt tax write-offs for businesses and individuals for health insurance should be wiped out, Medicare for seniors wiped out, and emergency room care paid by our gvt wiped out, and all research and development gvt grants wiped out, and all rules closing the purchase of drugs worldwide be wiped out...

ONLY THEN could we truly have a situation where market forces to keep prices lower would work...

we are so far gone in subsidies, even without this health care insurance bill....there is no way that all those things above will stop being funded by our gvt....not imo.... so, if they will not cut all those programs mentioned then what's next? can anything else other than price caps on fees/hospital/doctor charges work?

One could argue that the ability to shop around for the best price would bring down the cost of insurance.

Take auto insurance as an example. if I have under X dollars of claims against my collision coverage I can avoid a surcharge or at least only get assessed a lesser surcharge.

If I need a fender repaired I am free to find a guy who will do it for the lowest price thereby keeping my premiums lower. We didn't have to abolish car insurance to do it.

Similarly, if my health insurance policy worked so that I was free to find the best deal on a CAT scan then my insurer would have less to pay out and premiums would go down.

there is no need to abolish insurance to implement this simple strategy.

right now your insurance company is doing the negotiating....if the hospital charges a thousand for the cat-scan, negotiated with the insurance company to only charge $600 for it.....

this hasn't brought the costs of healthcare to where it is affordable...even though they are getting 40% off of the catscan.... prices are still too high.

insurance companies do negotiate for the BEST PRICE already, only upfront....and prices are still through the roof....?

How can we know we are getting the best price when we are out of the loop?

And really, do you think the hospital would make a deal where they didn't get the maximum profit.

i guarantee you if the price of services was known, competition would spur a price war.

You would see things like CAT Scans R Us where you could get a doctor's order and walk in to get scanned at a cut rate price.

shit my Vet has an X ray in his clinic and the quality of the film is just as good as the one's you can get at a big people hospital. My vet charges less than 100 bucks for the same service the human doctor charges twice or three times as much for.

Why? because I can call the other 5 vets within 30 miles of me and ask what they charge for an x ray. I guarantee that we could get better prices than the insurance companies do.

 

[Care4all]

One could argue that the ability to shop around for the best price would bring down the cost of insurance.

Take auto insurance as an example. if I have under X dollars of claims against my collision coverage I can avoid a surcharge or at least only get assessed a lesser surcharge.

If I need a fender repaired I am free to find a guy who will do it for the lowest price thereby keeping my premiums lower. We didn't have to abolish car insurance to do it.

Similarly, if my health insurance policy worked so that I was free to find the best deal on a CAT scan then my insurer would have less to pay out and premiums would go down.

there is no need to abolish insurance to implement this simple strategy.

right now your insurance company is doing the negotiating....if the hospital charges a thousand for the cat-scan, negotiated with the insurance company to only charge $600 for it.....

this hasn't brought the costs of healthcare to where it is affordable...even though they are getting 40% off of the catscan.... prices are still too high.

insurance companies do negotiate for the BEST PRICE already, only upfront....and prices are still through the roof....?

How can we know we are getting the best price when we are out of the loop?

And really, do you think the hospital would make a deal where they didn't get the maximum profit.

i guarantee you if the price of services was known, competition would spur a price war.

You would see things like CAT Scans R Us where you could get a doctor's order and walk in to get scanned at a cut rate price.

shit my Vet has an X ray in his clinic and the quality of the film is just as good as the one's you can get at a big people hospital. My vet charges less than 100 bucks for the same service the human doctor charges twice or three times as much for.

Why? because I can call the other 5 vets within 30 miles of me and ask what they charge for an x ray. I guarantee that we could get better prices than the insurance companies do.

i am not disagreeing with you in theory skull....in theory it should work precisely as you have stated....i do want to talk it through, sharpshoot it even....but i gotta get some freshly brewed coffee....brb.

c.

 

[veritas]

That's because vets are the best doctors there are. There are very few vet schools and only the best of the best get in. Vets read their own films, there's no radiologist in the middle interpreting. They know all about people too because they had to to get into vet school. They are all surgeons and superb diagnosticians because their patients can't talk.

 

[Chris]

The problem here is third party payment not the health care system in general.

Why is it that we know the costs of everything we purchse except for medical services and products?

Think about it. We have effectively insulated the medical industry from market forces. Is it any wonder that prices keep rising?

Don't you think that if we had the option to look around for a deal on a CAT scan or a blood test etc that we would choose the clinic that provided that service for the least cost?

yes, it is insulated from market forces...and insurance companies insulate....they should be wiped out.... all gvt tax write-offs for businesses and individuals for health insurance should be wiped out, Medicare for seniors wiped out, and emergency room care paid by our gvt wiped out, and all research and development gvt grants wiped out, and all rules closing the purchase of drugs worldwide be wiped out...

ONLY THEN could we truly have a situation where market forces to keep prices lower would work...

we are so far gone in subsidies, even without this health care insurance bill....there is no way that all those things above will stop being funded by our gvt....not imo.... so, if they will not cut all those programs mentioned then what's next? can anything else other than price caps on fees/hospital/doctor charges work?

One could argue that the ability to shop around for the best price would bring down the cost of insurance.

Take auto insurance as an example. if I have under X dollars of claims against my collision coverage I can avoid a surcharge or at least only get assessed a lesser surcharge.

If I need a fender repaired I am free to find a guy who will do it for the lowest price thereby keeping my premiums lower. We didn't have to abolish car insurance to do it.

Similarly, if my health insurance policy worked so that I was free to find the best deal on a CAT scan then my insurer would have less to pay out and premiums would go down.

there is no need to abolish insurance to implement this simple strategy.

No one is going to abolish insurance.

But if you want to continue to pay insurance companies to lobby Congress to deny you coverage, more power to you.

I refuse to give those bastards one cent of my money.

 

[Skull Pilot]

That's because vets are the best doctors there are. There are very few vet schools and only the best of the best get in. Vets read their own films, there's no radiologist in the middle interpreting. They know all about people too because they had to to get into vet school. They are all surgeons and superb diagnosticians because their patients can't talk.

vets routinely consult with radiologists via e mailed films. i know this because my vet has done it for a second opinion and that service only costs 50 bucks.

so once again competition can only take place when consumers are informed and have the ability to find the best price.

 

[Skull Pilot]

yes, it is insulated from market forces...and insurance companies insulate....they should be wiped out.... all gvt tax write-offs for businesses and individuals for health insurance should be wiped out, Medicare for seniors wiped out, and emergency room care paid by our gvt wiped out, and all research and development gvt grants wiped out, and all rules closing the purchase of drugs worldwide be wiped out...

ONLY THEN could we truly have a situation where market forces to keep prices lower would work...

we are so far gone in subsidies, even without this health care insurance bill....there is no way that all those things above will stop being funded by our gvt....not imo.... so, if they will not cut all those programs mentioned then what's next? can anything else other than price caps on fees/hospital/doctor charges work?

One could argue that the ability to shop around for the best price would bring down the cost of insurance.

Take auto insurance as an example. if I have under X dollars of claims against my collision coverage I can avoid a surcharge or at least only get assessed a lesser surcharge.

If I need a fender repaired I am free to find a guy who will do it for the lowest price thereby keeping my premiums lower. We didn't have to abolish car insurance to do it.

Similarly, if my health insurance policy worked so that I was free to find the best deal on a CAT scan then my insurer would have less to pay out and premiums would go down.

there is no need to abolish insurance to implement this simple strategy.

No one is going to abolish insurance.

But if you want to continue to pay insurance companies to lobby Congress to deny you coverage, more power to you.

I refuse to give those bastards one cent of my money.

Just don't come a cryin to me when you get sick or need an appendectomy,

 

[eagleseven]

"Fixing the healthcare industry with a public option is like fixing a broken window with a brick."

Best. Quote. Ever.

 

[Chris]

"Fixing the healthcare industry with a public option is like fixing a broken window with a brick."

Best. Quote. Ever.

Every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because the healthcare lobbyists gave $3.4 BILLION DOLLARS to members of Congress in the last decade.