Can Public Option Work?

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

no they don't....not when you take what we pay in insurance for our own health care...and add that to our taxes paid.

That would add 6% to my "tax" burden. Still well under the rates of european countries.

That is from a 5 figure salary. If i made more it would be an even smaller percentage.

good morning plymco
i can see that for someone making over 100 grand that it may not up your tax percentage that much compared to your income....but 80% of Americans do not make 6 figures in salary in our great country and many of them are paying 20-50% of their salaries in health care insurance costs....and some do not have it at all.

Edit: my mistake, thought you said 6 figures

its all good. I pay 40 bucks a week for health insurance. thats 6-7% of my income.

Some people do pay a lot more, if my employer didn't help i'd be paying 12-14% of my income in insurance (not including any money i might make on the side)

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

matt and I pay about 30% of our household income for healthcare insurance and out of pocket deductibles that we have had to use.... I have tried everything to find a cheaper insurance that covers more than his work's piece of crap insurance plan and it is triple the cost than what we get through his work on the group plan, so there is no hope...

See this little tidbit of knowledge you gave me here gives me HUGE insight into your strong desire for some kind of government run care. If i was paying that much of my income to health care i'd probably be uninsured and more accepting of all this talk out of pelosi and obama about a public option.

 

[AVG-JOE]

matt and I pay about 30% of our household income for healthcare insurance and out of pocket deductibles that we have had to use.... I have tried everything to find a cheaper insurance that covers more than his work's piece of crap insurance plan and it is triple the cost than what we get through his work on the group plan, so there is no hope...

Yup. The money behind the insurance industry has us enslaved to them. They have managed to enslave both the consumers of health care and the providers using fear of catastrophic illness and its related expense as the whip to keep us in line.

Placing the word "industry" after insurance is a joke.... it makes nothing, it serves nothing. It is a bureaucracy, not an industry. Bureaucracies do not deserve to make a profit.

 

[Contumacious]

Can Public Option Work?!

Ask yourself some questions:

1- Are you a parasite?

2- Do you believe that your neighbors owe you a living?

3- Do you believe that government has the right to loot and plunder on your behalf?

.

 

[Care4all]

Can Public Option Work?!

Ask yourself some questions:

1- Are you a parasite?

2- Do you believe that your neighbors owe you a living?

3- Do you believe that government has the right to loot and plunder on your behalf?

.

WHAT are you talking about?

maybe you need to tell us WHAT YOU THINK the public insurance option is....?????

HOW is choosing to PAY the public insurance option your PREMIUM instead of being FORCED to pay a Private insurance company with their overhead and profit in their premium, being a parasite?

you are clueless on this public insurance option and what it means, aren't you?

care

 

[Contumacious]

Can Public Option Work?!

Ask yourself some questions:

1- Are you a parasite?

2- Do you believe that your neighbors owe you a living?

3- Do you believe that government has the right to loot and plunder on your behalf?

.

WHAT are you talking about?

....the word insurance has become corrupted in public discourse. What most people mean when they talk about obtaining health insurance is "How can I find a third party who will provide me with unlimited consumption of health care at no or minimal cost to me?" The current health care debate seems to be about the search for a system where everyone can obtain unlimited care at no cost to anyone."

 

[Chris]

Can Public Option Work?!

Ask yourself some questions:

1- Are you a parasite?

2- Do you believe that your neighbors owe you a living?

3- Do you believe that government has the right to loot and plunder on your behalf?

.

I believe it the right thing to do for the government to take care of the old and the sick.

I also believe it is more fair and cheaper.

 

[The Rabbi]

Can Public Option Work?!

Ask yourself some questions:

1- Are you a parasite?

2- Do you believe that your neighbors owe you a living?

3- Do you believe that government has the right to loot and plunder on your behalf?

.

I believe it the right thing to do for the government to take care of the old and the sick.

I also believe it is more fair and cheaper.

Do you believe in Santa Claus and teh Easter bunny as well?
Why do you believe the government ought to do these things? In most countries historically families were responsible for this. Or communities. Why is gov't responsible?
How is it fair? Every dollar taken from me in taxation means one less dollar I can spend on my own health care or that of my family (see above). How is any of that fair?
As for cheaper, when has government ever done anything cheaper than private enterprise?

 

[Contumacious]

Ask yourself some questions:

1- Are you a parasite?

2- Do you believe that your neighbors owe you a living?

3- Do you believe that government has the right to loot and plunder on your behalf?

.

WHAT are you talking about?

maybe you need to tell us WHAT YOU THINK the public insurance option is....?????

HOW is choosing to PAY the public insurance option your PREMIUM instead of being FORCED to pay a Private insurance company with their overhead and profit in their premium, being a parasite?

you are clueless on this public insurance option and what it means, aren't you?

care

The answer is simple: the public option will keep premiums low because they have an intrinsic government guarantee, ala Fannie Mae. But what we learned is that intrinsic guarantees quickly become actual cash payments. And that is what will happen here.

Mr. Fucktard, Sir:

Are you aware that the US National Debt is :

.


Yes_____ or No______

that is ALL I want to hear.

.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Ask yourself some questions:

1- Are you a parasite?

2- Do you believe that your neighbors owe you a living?

3- Do you believe that government has the right to loot and plunder on your behalf?

.

WHAT are you talking about?

....the word insurance has become corrupted in public discourse. What most people mean when they talk about obtaining health insurance is "How can I find a third party who will provide me with unlimited consumption of health care at no or minimal cost to me?" The current health care debate seems to be about the search for a system where everyone can obtain unlimited care at no cost to anyone."

Contumacious,

Anyone who does not look for the best price for a good or service, quality notwithstanding, is a fool.

Reducing the cost of seeing a doctor is definitely part of the public debate - the question before us is do we allow a private corporation to profit from the management of our health and financial data base or, do We, The People hire a bunch of clerks and bureaucrats at reasonable middle class salaries and tell the million dollar insurance executives currently deciding if a person is deserving of coverage to go **** themselves?

 

[The Rabbi]

WHAT are you talking about?

....the word insurance has become corrupted in public discourse. What most people mean when they talk about obtaining health insurance is "How can I find a third party who will provide me with unlimited consumption of health care at no or minimal cost to me?" The current health care debate seems to be about the search for a system where everyone can obtain unlimited care at no cost to anyone."

Contumacious,

Anyone who does not look for the best price for a good or service, quality notwithstanding, is a fool.

Reducing the cost of seeing a doctor is definitely part of the public debate - the question before us is do we allow a private corporation to profit from the management of our health and financial data base or, do We, The People hire a bunch of clerks and bureaucrats reasonable middle class salaries and tell the million dollar insurance executives currently deciding if a person is deserving of coverage to go **** themselves?

Because we know that all government services are provided at better prices and with better quality than private services, right?
If you really believe that you are an idiot. If you believe health insurers are simply greedy vultures, you are a bigger idiot. ANd if you think this debate is simply about making life better for all Americans you are King Fool.

 

[Care4all]

matt and I pay about 30% of our household income for healthcare insurance and out of pocket deductibles that we have had to use.... I have tried everything to find a cheaper insurance that covers more than his work's piece of crap insurance plan and it is triple the cost than what we get through his work on the group plan, so there is no hope...

See this little tidbit of knowledge you gave me here gives me HUGE insight into your strong desire for some kind of government run care. If i was paying that much of my income to health care i'd probably be uninsured and more accepting of all this talk out of pelosi and obama about a public option.

I don;t want a public plan that is paid for by others, I want to buy our own insurance as we are now, but we need the prices for health care insurance to come down...we need real competition and real reform to take place so we can afford food, property taxes and health insurance...the only reason we can afford to pay the 30% is because we don;t have a mortgage, we own our home....but there are many much worse off than us because they also have to pay a mortgage or rent and health insurance, so they don;t pay for health care, because they can't afford to and also get by....

yes, I am closer to those in need than you are, for certain! But we still have it better than others, so the glass is half full to me, not half empty....

we just need access to AFFORDABLE health care that we can buy, I don;t give a hoot on how we actually get there....we just need THIS to be the end result....and with making it mandatory that we buy the private insurers policy.....with no other competition on the table, this is a GIFT HORSE to the insurance industry and there is absolutely no incentive to compete with eachother to capture more of the market share.....THAT'S A REAL PROBLEM....

And I honestly see this as keeping the prices high, not lowering them plymco.

 

[Care4all]

I don;t believe health insurers are necessarily greedy, nor do i believe the greatest savings in our health care costs are in the Insurers...

Our greatest costs in health care now a days are prescription drugs....and what the medicare pill bill for the seniors costs us each year in taxes.....this was another gift horse...only given to PHARMA by the Republicans in congress on that one....

the deal the republicans made with PHARMA on us not being able to negotiate bulk discounts is ABSURD and not being able to buy drugs cheaper from Canada is absurd....and yes, the profit margins of the PHARMA industry are absurd...they are not free market earned profits, they are tax payer's money handed to them with the pill bill and regulations that keeps them profitable such as the 2 i mentioned above....

And the inefficiencies in hospitals is also something that could give us huge savings if they corrected them...

and medical mal practice reform....

the most important thing that could have been done, is rid insurance companies of "group" policies and allow us all to buy our own health insurance policy, with the help of a company benefit....like a credit given to us and then we can choose which policy is best for us....this truly gives us control of our own health care instead of being enslaved to ones employer and their choices in insurance.

we should ALL be considered ONE BIG GROUP, after all...they have a captive audience....

 

[The Rabbi]

matt and I pay about 30% of our household income for healthcare insurance and out of pocket deductibles that we have had to use.... I have tried everything to find a cheaper insurance that covers more than his work's piece of crap insurance plan and it is triple the cost than what we get through his work on the group plan, so there is no hope...

See this little tidbit of knowledge you gave me here gives me HUGE insight into your strong desire for some kind of government run care. If i was paying that much of my income to health care i'd probably be uninsured and more accepting of all this talk out of pelosi and obama about a public option.

I don;t want a public plan that is paid for by others, I want to buy our own insurance as we are now, but we need the prices for health care insurance to come down...we need real competition and real reform to take place so we can afford food, property taxes and health insurance...the only reason we can afford to pay the 30% is because we don;t have a mortgage, we own our home....but there are many much worse off than us because they also have to pay a mortgage or rent and health insurance, so they don;t pay for health care, because they can't afford to and also get by....

yes, I am closer to those in need than you are, for certain! But we still have it better than others, so the glass is half full to me, not half empty....

we just need access to AFFORDABLE health care that we can buy, I don;t give a hoot on how we actually get there....we just need THIS to be the end result....and with making it mandatory that we buy the private insurers policy.....with no other competition on the table, this is a GIFT HORSE to the insurance industry and there is absolutely no incentive to compete with eachother to capture more of the market share.....THAT'S A REAL PROBLEM....

And I honestly see this as keeping the prices high, not lowering them plymco.

Well, latest scoring from CBO says the gov't option will be MORE expensive than private insurance. So I guess that goal is down the toilet.
You still have not managed a coherent answer as to how a gov't option would lower costs. As I've pointed out, often, margins are low in the industry. With gov'ts well known aptitude for waste any savings from being non-profit making will quickly evaporate. Even if the public drones were as efficient as private industry rates would be 2-3% lower. Is that really worth imposing huge mandates and taxes on everyone?
No.
This bill sucks. Any bill likely to be produced by the Dums is going to suck. People who have never created wealth have no business telling those of us who have what to do.

 

[Care4all]

See this little tidbit of knowledge you gave me here gives me HUGE insight into your strong desire for some kind of government run care. If i was paying that much of my income to health care i'd probably be uninsured and more accepting of all this talk out of pelosi and obama about a public option.

I don;t want a public plan that is paid for by others, I want to buy our own insurance as we are now, but we need the prices for health care insurance to come down...we need real competition and real reform to take place so we can afford food, property taxes and health insurance...the only reason we can afford to pay the 30% is because we don;t have a mortgage, we own our home....but there are many much worse off than us because they also have to pay a mortgage or rent and health insurance, so they don;t pay for health care, because they can't afford to and also get by....

yes, I am closer to those in need than you are, for certain! But we still have it better than others, so the glass is half full to me, not half empty....

we just need access to AFFORDABLE health care that we can buy, I don;t give a hoot on how we actually get there....we just need THIS to be the end result....and with making it mandatory that we buy the private insurers policy.....with no other competition on the table, this is a GIFT HORSE to the insurance industry and there is absolutely no incentive to compete with eachother to capture more of the market share.....THAT'S A REAL PROBLEM....

And I honestly see this as keeping the prices high, not lowering them plymco.

Well, latest scoring from CBO says the gov't option will be MORE expensive than private insurance. So I guess that goal is down the toilet.
You still have not managed a coherent answer as to how a gov't option would lower costs. As I've pointed out, often, margins are low in the industry. With gov'ts well known aptitude for waste any savings from being non-profit making will quickly evaporate. Even if the public drones were as efficient as private industry rates would be 2-3% lower. Is that really worth imposing huge mandates and taxes on everyone?
No.
This bill sucks. Any bill likely to be produced by the Dums is going to suck. People who have never created wealth have no business telling those of us who have what to do.

Got a link for the cbo scoring and for what public option they scored Rabbi?

I did answer your post and questions on this:

prove it rabbi, that it is like a fannie mae.... no where is there a guarantee in the public option that our gvt taxes will pay for it....hr3200 specifically states that premiums are to pay for the whole shebang AND SOME....the plan has to take in even more than it costs to run the plan, in case they do need more money from any miscalculations?

and, having worked my entire life for corporations....there is a ton of waste to be skimmed.... just the 'expenses' alone that are turned in by employees could save a ton, and the twice a year company meetings at 5 star resorts for a week, with massages at spas etc.... we did all of that...paying $300 bucks a night for a hotel room for every executive and every salesman of the company...we could eat anything we wanted...lobster, surf and turf, caviar....we drank until we fell over....all on ''the company''.... all of this exorbitant spending was unnecessary....we could have put on a great Sales meeting on our home turf or a hotel nearby....but noooo, we spent a fortune shipping all of the next season's product, from massachusetts to scottsdale arizona's 5 star marriott camelback resort for our sales reps to preview it.... and that ain't even a smidgen of the waste....

then, the salaries of the big guns....wayyyyyy to high for what they actually produce....all of that comes out BEFORE the shareholder's profits....

the 3-6% in corporate profits is NOT the only money to be saved through a public insurance option....and as i said previously....if they mess up, or can find no savings then the premiums for those who chose this option will have no savings...and will drop them or stay with the private option....and the public option falls by the wayside....

 

[The Rabbi]

CBO Rebuts Pros, Cons of Public Option - WSJ.com

Anyway, your "answers" are absurd and betray an ignorance of business that is profound. If you think gov't employees are somehow going to be more efficient than private employees I'd like you to recount your last visit to the DMV.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I don;t believe health insurers are necessarily greedy, nor do i believe the greatest savings in our health care costs are in the Insurers...

Our greatest costs in health care now a days are prescription drugs....and what the medicare pill bill for the seniors costs us each year in taxes.....this was another gift horse...only given to PHARMA by the Republicans in congress on that one....

the deal the republicans made with PHARMA on us not being able to negotiate bulk discounts is ABSURD and not being able to buy drugs cheaper from Canada is absurd....and yes, the profit margins of the PHARMA industry are absurd...they are not free market earned profits, they are tax payer's money handed to them with the pill bill and regulations that keeps them profitable such as the 2 i mentioned above....

And the inefficiencies in hospitals is also something that could give us huge savings if they corrected them...

and medical mal practice reform....

the most important thing that could have been done, is rid insurance companies of "group" policies and allow us all to buy our own health insurance policy, with the help of a company benefit....like a credit given to us and then we can choose which policy is best for us....this truly gives us control of our own health care instead of being enslaved to ones employer and their choices in insurance.

we should ALL be considered ONE BIG GROUP, after all...they have a captive audience....

There certainly are ways for We, The People to 'make' private insurance more fair, and true competition is a key step towards the problem of price.

The reason I lean toward a public option is that the idea of a profit motive driving the decisions behind the management of the health and financial data bases with MY personal information on them kind of scares me.

Thank (insert your preferred Deity here) for the regulations with the public interest in mind that we have!

 

[Care4all]

CBO Rebuts Pros, Cons of Public Option - WSJ.com

Anyway, your "answers" are absurd and betray an ignorance of business that is profound. If you think gov't employees are somehow going to be more efficient than private employees I'd like you to recount your last visit to the DMV.

rabbi, how was the corporate wastes listed above absurd or ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes?

are you certain it isn't YOU who lives in this idealistic world of the corporations are perfect as perfect can be?

I can assure you, that there are always ways to cut expenses in a huge corporation and there are always ways to improve and become more efficient....unfortunately, good runs on business makes us more slack and these possible efficiencies are ignored....it is only when business is tough, that more time is spent actually evaluating ones expense waste and inefficiency wastes.

NO, i didn't forsee gvt employees taking trips to 5 star resorts, or not having a cap on their expenses, nor did i think they could drink till they couldn't walk on the shareholder's dime or in their case the taxpayers dime...

yes, our gvt is filled with plenty of their own waste....but don't be thinking huge corporations don't have an equal bureaucracy and wastefulness on someone elses dime.

 

[The Rabbi]

You dont get it.
Yes, corporations do have some waste and inefficieny built into them. But they have incentives to remove them, especially when revenue is flagging, like now.
Gov't has no incentive to remove waste and inefficiency. Gov't agencies have far more waste than any private corporation does. Look at the military. Look at FEMA. Why will a public corporation of health insurance be different? It won't. It will be worse, not better.
In any case, how much does that waste and inefficiency amount to? The answer is that amounts to as much as it would cost to get rid of it.

 

[Care4all]

You dont get it.
Yes, corporations do have some waste and inefficieny built into them. But they have incentives to remove them, especially when revenue is flagging, like now.
Gov't has no incentive to remove waste and inefficiency. Gov't agencies have far more waste than any private corporation does. Look at the military. Look at FEMA. Why will a public corporation of health insurance be different? It won't. It will be worse, not better.
In any case, how much does that waste and inefficiency amount to? The answer is that amounts to as much as it would cost to get rid of it.

i don't disagree...because there is no budget restrictions with all of this government borrowing from foreign countries and from our social security surplus funds...if we don't collect enough in taxes, let's just continue to expand spending and borrow the money....attitude.

IF the government had kept borrowing down, or borrowing only within our country, then these huge expansions in gvt spending could not have occurred and ALL GVT DEPTS would have been forced in to efficiency due to the lack of their budget increase or funding....this CAN STILL BE DONE with our gvt...it may take a near miracle and perseverance from here to kingdom come, but it is feasible, we should not just give up in this respect....

same with corporations, they can always change and become better, become smarter....there is no real incentive for the guys running the show to ''tighten up'' either, as long as they show their shareholders the 3%-6% in profit or a 12% ROI either...