Can Paris summit save two-state solution?

[Phoenall]

Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.

I believe the Palestinians want Palestine recognized as a state and are prepared to live in peace. Israel wants peace too but only on conditions. I also think Israel does not want Palestine as a neighbor but would prefer a system of reservations for Palestinians which they could call any name they like.

3 state solution.

This is not on the Paris agenda.

I think it's more complicated than the article lets on - it's a bit one sided.

Yes the settlements are an obstacle, a big one from the Palestinian perspective as it literally prevents a second viable state and yes, Netanyahu has been giving lip service to a two state solution and buying time by ramping up the settlements.

BUT

There are other obstacles to negotiation that need to be recognized.

Lack of a negotiating partner who can speak for all the Palestinians.
Continued violence against Israeli civilians.

I think a 3-state solution should be considered...

The PLO can negotiate with the Israelis if they want to waste another half century.

There is continued violence by the IDF and settlers against Palestinians.

The first step to even sitting at the same table is to get the arab league to rescind the Khartoum resolution. Until that is done the talking is just a waste of everyones time

 

[Phoenall]

Likely they won't accept it, which is why they will be eliminated. Over a million Palestinians in a recent survey, said they planned to move. Leave Palestine. Which is what they should do.

That isn't good news. Palestinians outside of country are a bigger threat to Israel than those inside.

I don't know. But that is the only solution. Once Gaza and West bank are annexed, complaining about a lost cause should eventually go away.

You don't hear much about Crimea anymore, do you?

The old will die and the young will forget.

That was said about 70 years ago.

But that's because they have not removed them yet. They are still in Gaza and West Bank. Yeah, as long as they stay there, stay shooting rockets, and stay in constant conflict, then it isn't going away.

But Israel isn't going to just disband, and let the Arabs wipe them out.

So eventually they will leave or they will die.

So my I assume that you side with the thieves and liars?

We leave that to you, who is the worst islamonazi propagandist on any board

 

[Andylusion]

Likely they won't accept it, which is why they will be eliminated. Over a million Palestinians in a recent survey, said they planned to move. Leave Palestine. Which is what they should do.

That isn't good news. Palestinians outside of country are a bigger threat to Israel than those inside.

I don't know. But that is the only solution. Once Gaza and West bank are annexed, complaining about a lost cause should eventually go away.

You don't hear much about Crimea anymore, do you?

The old will die and the young will forget.

That was said about 70 years ago.

But that's because they have not removed them yet. They are still in Gaza and West Bank. Yeah, as long as they stay there, stay shooting rockets, and stay in constant conflict, then it isn't going away.

But Israel isn't going to just disband, and let the Arabs wipe them out.

So eventually they will leave or they will die.

So my I assume that you side with the thieves and liars?

You can call them whatever you want. I'm on the side of G-d. G-d wrote a book. In that book he said certain things would happen.

Those certain things are happening. There is only one group of people on the face of this Earth, that has been living in the land of Israel consistently for over 3.5 thousand years. The Jews.

The Arabs in Israel today, are liars and thieves. They are not indigenous. They moved there for Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and Lebanon.

The Jews are the only people with a claim to Israel. And the book says:

This is what the Lord says: As I have brought all this great calamity on this people, so I will give them all the prosperity I have promised them. Once more fields will be bought in this land of which you say, ‘It is a desolate waste, without people or animals, for it has been given into the hands of the Babylonians.’ Fields will be bought for silver, and deeds will be signed, sealed and witnessed in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem, in the towns of Judah and in the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, because I will restore their fortunes, declares the Lord.”​

And it is happening. Right now, as we speak.

In fact, there is some parts that seem to imply the West Bank, and Gaza.

For example Zephaniah chapter 2, down at verse 8:

“I have heard the insults of Moab
and the taunts of the Ammonites,
who insulted my people
and made threats against their land.
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”
​

Where is Moab and Ammon? Just next to where the West Bank is.

And what he declares will happen, is as you have pointed out... happening.

As for Gaza:

Woe to you who live by the sea,
you Kerethite people;
the word of the Lord is against you,
Canaan, land of the Philistines.
He says, “I will destroy you,
and none will be left.”
The land by the sea will become pastures
having wells for shepherds
and pens for flocks.
That land will belong
to the remnant of the people of Judah;
there they will find pasture.
In the evening they will lie down
in the houses of Ashkelon.
The Lord their God will care for them;
he will restore their fortunes.
​

The land of the Philistines is where Gaza is. Ashkelon is a city just a few miles north of Gaza. Kerethite were allies of the Philitines and Egypt. Ironic given that Ashkelon was a forward base for Egyptian military.

They were destroyed, and Ashkelon is now a Jewish city.

The rest has not yet come to pass... but it will.

Now again, you want to say I'm with thieves and liars.... that's your take. You are allowed that opinion obviously.

In reality, I'm on the side of this book. And here's the kicker... it's coming true whether on I'm this side, or that side, or any side. The book is coming true. Even if I was completely against it.... it's still coming true.

You have to determine whether you will fight against G-d and his book, or if you are on his side. Because this is going to happen whether you want it to, or not.

That passage is 2,000 years old. It hasn't changed in thousands of years, and it's happening exactly as G-d said it would.

What you think you are going to do about it, is your deal. For me... I'm on G-d's side. Not that he needs my help.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You can call them whatever you want. I'm on the side of G-d.

Oh jeese, not another one of those.

 

[Andylusion]

You can call them whatever you want. I'm on the side of G-d.

Oh jeese, not another one of those.

Absolutely. You can't argue with the prophesies can you?

It's ok. I don't blame you for moving on. Obviously you can't deny a prediction thousands of years old. Nor can you deny it's coming true.

I would suggest you read the prophesies, just to see what they say. See what it claims will happen in the middle east. Then you can determine for yourself if they happen.

So no hard feelings. Best to you.

 

[Lipush]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

It never was a "solution". Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict. One side must defeat the other side. Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory. That is the only solution.

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

View attachment 106657

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you because USMessageBoard is for people to express their opinions no matter how dumb others think of them.

So, I will keep it brief. Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line. This is the country which is a member state of the United Nations. The UN member state of Israel then does not include any part of the Occupied Territories. For decades the UN has held the opinion that these Occupied Territories should become the state of Palestine with mutually agreed land swaps along the 1967 de facto border.

It is hoped that the seventy countries represented at the Paris summit tomorrow (John Kerry included) will kick-start a serious effort on the part of Israel and Palestine to a two-state solution. This means, according to the draft of the topics, that Israel will stop its opposition to a Palestinian state.

For the reasons I gave earlier in the Opening Post, I cannot see this happening. Consequently, countries will continue to recognize Palestine and the conflict will continue as Israel becomes an apartheid Jewish state in all of the former British Mandate territory or it will change its mind and also recognize Palestine. The world will most certainly not be spectators of an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs who are going nowhere.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter.

The point wasn't to insult you. And there are many many topics we can discuss that perhaps we can reach some conclusion.

The problem with this specific topic, is that everyone's opinion on it, really doesn't matter. The opinions of the people in Israel (Arabs and Jews), are the only opinions that matter. They are the ones being attacked, and attacking back.

If I have a guy move into the house next door to me, and he is set and determined to rape my daughter, and I'm set and determined to stop him.... you or anyone else coming along saying "Well I think you should accept him", I'm not going to care what you think. Me and this dude next door are going to be having a war.

Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line.

That's like saying you don't agree that Crimea is part of Russia now. Do you think the Russians care that we don't accept Crimea as part of Russia? Do you seem them pulling back? Do you see them withdrawing troops? Do you see them stopping the fighting in Ukraine?

That's my point to you.

What you, and the rest of the world "agrees" or "accepts", doesn't matter to either the Jews or the Arabs.

The Jews see the entire land as their rightful ancient home land, and they stake a claim on all of it, whether you or the rest of the world 'agrees' it's theirs or not.

The Arabs see the entire Israeli nation as unacceptable, and they will fight against it until they die, whether you or the rest of the world 'accepts' it or not.

The problem with the "world opinion" is that you are looking at it from the outside, from an outside perspective, with outside views and values.

You need to look at this conflict from the inside perspective, with inside views and perspectives.

Which is why I have said the "two-state solution" is simply not a solution. It simply isn't. All you are going to do, is setup a new way for the Arabs to arm themselves, and form an organized military to fight the Jews with. And the Jews will fight back, and the Arabs will lose, and one of two things will happen... Either we'll end up back where we are now, with Israel occupying Gaza and the west bank, or the conflict will draw in the world, and end up a world war.

It's simply NOT a solution. One of these two groups must win, and the other must lose.

The only good news is that a record number of Palestinians are leaving Gaza.

Finally a good realistic post

 

[Lipush]

It never was a "solution". Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict. One side must defeat the other side. Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory. That is the only solution.

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

View attachment 106657

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you because USMessageBoard is for people to express their opinions no matter how dumb others think of them.

So, I will keep it brief. Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line. This is the country which is a member state of the United Nations. The UN member state of Israel then does not include any part of the Occupied Territories. For decades the UN has held the opinion that these Occupied Territories should become the state of Palestine with mutually agreed land swaps along the 1967 de facto border.

It is hoped that the seventy countries represented at the Paris summit tomorrow (John Kerry included) will kick-start a serious effort on the part of Israel and Palestine to a two-state solution. This means, according to the draft of the topics, that Israel will stop its opposition to a Palestinian state.

For the reasons I gave earlier in the Opening Post, I cannot see this happening. Consequently, countries will continue to recognize Palestine and the conflict will continue as Israel becomes an apartheid Jewish state in all of the former British Mandate territory or it will change its mind and also recognize Palestine. The world will most certainly not be spectators of an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs who are going nowhere.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter.

The point wasn't to insult you. And there are many many topics we can discuss that perhaps we can reach some conclusion.

The problem with this specific topic, is that everyone's opinion on it, really doesn't matter. The opinions of the people in Israel (Arabs and Jews), are the only opinions that matter. They are the ones being attacked, and attacking back.

If I have a guy move into the house next door to me, and he is set and determined to rape my daughter, and I'm set and determined to stop him.... you or anyone else coming along saying "Well I think you should accept him", I'm not going to care what you think. Me and this dude next door are going to be having a war.

Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line.

That's like saying you don't agree that Crimea is part of Russia now. Do you think the Russians care that we don't accept Crimea as part of Russia? Do you seem them pulling back? Do you see them withdrawing troops? Do you see them stopping the fighting in Ukraine?

That's my point to you.

What you, and the rest of the world "agrees" or "accepts", doesn't matter to either the Jews or the Arabs.

The Jews see the entire land as their rightful ancient home land, and they stake a claim on all of it, whether you or the rest of the world 'agrees' it's theirs or not.

The Arabs see the entire Israeli nation as unacceptable, and they will fight against it until they die, whether you or the rest of the world 'accepts' it or not.

The problem with the "world opinion" is that you are looking at it from the outside, from an outside perspective, with outside views and values.

You need to look at this conflict from the inside perspective, with inside views and perspectives.

Which is why I have said the "two-state solution" is simply not a solution. It simply isn't. All you are going to do, is setup a new way for the Arabs to arm themselves, and form an organized military to fight the Jews with. And the Jews will fight back, and the Arabs will lose, and one of two things will happen... Either we'll end up back where we are now, with Israel occupying Gaza and the west bank, or the conflict will draw in the world, and end up a world war.

It's simply NOT a solution. One of these two groups must win, and the other must lose.

The only good news is that a record number of Palestinians are leaving Gaza.

The Israelis seem not to care about the views of other countries except the USA yet they have a habit of defending Israel through Friends of Israel in foreign political parties and making many accusations about "antisemitism" in other countries, an accusation which puts the fear of God into European politicians given the history of the Final Solution. So, what other countries think does seem to matter to Israelis at the same time.

It matters because we're not on the globe, and it does not matter because, bluntly and honestly speaking, the Gentiles rarely decide in benefit of the Jews.

 

[Lipush]

Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.

I believe the Palestinians want Palestine recognized as a state and are prepared to live in peace. Israel wants peace too but only on conditions. I also think Israel does not want Palestine as a neighbor but would prefer a system of reservations for Palestinians which they could call any name they like.

3 state solution.

This is not on the Paris agenda.

I think it's more complicated than the article lets on - it's a bit one sided.

Yes the settlements are an obstacle, a big one from the Palestinian perspective as it literally prevents a second viable state and yes, Netanyahu has been giving lip service to a two state solution and buying time by ramping up the settlements.

BUT

There are other obstacles to negotiation that need to be recognized.

Lack of a negotiating partner who can speak for all the Palestinians.
Continued violence against Israeli civilians.

I think a 3-state solution should be considered...

The PLO can negotiate with the Israelis if they want to waste another half century.

There is continued violence by the IDF and settlers against Palestinians.

And there is permanent terror acts and incitements against civilians in Israel by the Palestinians.

How conveniently you ignore that.

 

[Lipush]

I think it's more complicated than the article lets on - it's a bit one sided.

Yes the settlements are an obstacle, a big one from the Palestinian perspective as it literally prevents a second viable state and yes, Netanyahu has been giving lip service to a two state solution and buying time by ramping up the settlements.

BUT

There are other obstacles to negotiation that need to be recognized.

Lack of a negotiating partner who can speak for all the Palestinians.
Continued violence against Israeli civilians.

I think a 3-state solution should be considered...

The fact that there are Jewish people who might one day be living in a State of Palestine is in no way a barrier to peace or a two State solution -- unless the Palestinians make it one by refusing to permit Jews to live in their State.

But the reason behind the argument that they ARE a barrier is truly an obstacle. And they are part of the same problem which leads to continued violence against Israeli civilians. Its all cut from the same ideological cloth.

The conflict won't be solved until the Palestinians make some ideological changes. The problem with the Palestinians trying to make these ideological changes is that a good portion of Palestinian/Arab/Muslim society is vehemently against making these changes. They continue to hold to the, let's be honest here, extremist idea that the Jewish people absolutely can not have a nation, nor have self-determination, nor have even a single acre of land unless thoroughly subjugated under Arab Muslim rule, as per the example of modern Iran. They continue to hold to the extremist idea that the Jewish people had no history in the land and thus have no rights to it. They continue to believe that there was never a Temple on the Temple Mount and that Jewish religion and history is corrupt and fundamentally untrue in fact, as well as theology.

The problem for a government of Palestine is that if they negotiate for peace with Israel half the population will be satisfied and the other half will see it as a betrayal and start a rebellion. (witness the events in Gaza after the 2005 Israeli withdrawal). It is the risk of a civil war within Palestine and the resulting aftermath, which is good for no one (again witness Gaza). A government of Palestine, in even negotiating a peace treaty, let alone accomplishing one, is writing the letter of its own demise, at best and potentially far, far worse. If the choice is between a civil war within your own country, a war you are probably going to lose, and fighting an enemy -- its pretty darn easy to go after the "enemy".

The idea of "land for peace" died with the Gaza withdrawal. Israel is not going to play that game again. Because Israel is fully aware that the problem is not land, or settlements. Or Israel. Or Jews. Its extremists. Its extremist thinking.

Arab Muslims all over the Middle East and their governments live in peace with Israel so there is no reason to deny Palestinian Arabs will not do the same given the opportunity by their occupiers.

Arab states who have peace with Israel came to the solution of peace because they had something to lose and by benefiting from peace they chose the benefit of the people.

Hamas does not care for the benefit of the Palestinians. It never had.

 

[Phoenall]

You can call them whatever you want. I'm on the side of G-d.

Oh jeese, not another one of those.

What did your fake prophet ever say would happen in time, so you could be ready for the end times. He could not even prophesy his own death

 

[ForeverYoung436]

How about a solution where the Israelis and Palestinians work it out for themselves and where the rest of the world keeps their sticky beaks out of it.

It affects the rest of the world...and...I doubt a just solution would be arrived at.

You just said a dirty word...just solution.

All of the so called peace process is to see what lever of injustice can we get the Palestinians to accept.

Likely they won't accept it, which is why they will be eliminated. Over a million Palestinians in a recent survey, said they planned to move. Leave Palestine. Which is what they should do.

That isn't good news. Palestinians outside of country are a bigger threat to Israel than those inside.

I don't know. But that is the only solution. Once Gaza and West bank are annexed, complaining about a lost cause should eventually go away.

You don't hear much about Crimea anymore, do you?

Unfortunately, you cannot compare Crimea or Kurdistan or Northern Cyprus or Tibet or Western Sahara or Kashmir to Israel and the West Bank. 70 countries will not participate in a conference about those territories. The world has always been OBSESSED with Israel.

 

[fncceo]

The world has always been OBSESSED with Israel.

Actually, just obsessed with one particular ethnic group in Israel.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

It never was a "solution". Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict. One side must defeat the other side. Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory. That is the only solution.

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

View attachment 106657

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

It's not only a Divine Right issue. For 2,000 years the Jews have been subject to pogroms, blood libels, inquisitions, Crusades, expulsions, massacres, and a Holocaust. They want only one tiny corner of the world to call their own. My own grandparents were forced out of Europe and they couldn't get visas to America at that time (now it's much easier), so they HAD to go to Israel. Ethiopian Jews went there because of famine, Russian Jews when the USSR collapsed, and French Jews now due to anti-Semitism. One dot on the globe.

 

[Eloy]

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

View attachment 106657

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you because USMessageBoard is for people to express their opinions no matter how dumb others think of them.

So, I will keep it brief. Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line. This is the country which is a member state of the United Nations. The UN member state of Israel then does not include any part of the Occupied Territories. For decades the UN has held the opinion that these Occupied Territories should become the state of Palestine with mutually agreed land swaps along the 1967 de facto border.

It is hoped that the seventy countries represented at the Paris summit tomorrow (John Kerry included) will kick-start a serious effort on the part of Israel and Palestine to a two-state solution. This means, according to the draft of the topics, that Israel will stop its opposition to a Palestinian state.

For the reasons I gave earlier in the Opening Post, I cannot see this happening. Consequently, countries will continue to recognize Palestine and the conflict will continue as Israel becomes an apartheid Jewish state in all of the former British Mandate territory or it will change its mind and also recognize Palestine. The world will most certainly not be spectators of an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs who are going nowhere.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter.

The point wasn't to insult you. And there are many many topics we can discuss that perhaps we can reach some conclusion.

The problem with this specific topic, is that everyone's opinion on it, really doesn't matter. The opinions of the people in Israel (Arabs and Jews), are the only opinions that matter. They are the ones being attacked, and attacking back.

If I have a guy move into the house next door to me, and he is set and determined to rape my daughter, and I'm set and determined to stop him.... you or anyone else coming along saying "Well I think you should accept him", I'm not going to care what you think. Me and this dude next door are going to be having a war.

Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line.

That's like saying you don't agree that Crimea is part of Russia now. Do you think the Russians care that we don't accept Crimea as part of Russia? Do you seem them pulling back? Do you see them withdrawing troops? Do you see them stopping the fighting in Ukraine?

That's my point to you.

What you, and the rest of the world "agrees" or "accepts", doesn't matter to either the Jews or the Arabs.

The Jews see the entire land as their rightful ancient home land, and they stake a claim on all of it, whether you or the rest of the world 'agrees' it's theirs or not.

The Arabs see the entire Israeli nation as unacceptable, and they will fight against it until they die, whether you or the rest of the world 'accepts' it or not.

The problem with the "world opinion" is that you are looking at it from the outside, from an outside perspective, with outside views and values.

You need to look at this conflict from the inside perspective, with inside views and perspectives.

Which is why I have said the "two-state solution" is simply not a solution. It simply isn't. All you are going to do, is setup a new way for the Arabs to arm themselves, and form an organized military to fight the Jews with. And the Jews will fight back, and the Arabs will lose, and one of two things will happen... Either we'll end up back where we are now, with Israel occupying Gaza and the west bank, or the conflict will draw in the world, and end up a world war.

It's simply NOT a solution. One of these two groups must win, and the other must lose.

The only good news is that a record number of Palestinians are leaving Gaza.

The Israelis seem not to care about the views of other countries except the USA yet they have a habit of defending Israel through Friends of Israel in foreign political parties and making many accusations about "antisemitism" in other countries, an accusation which puts the fear of God into European politicians given the history of the Final Solution. So, what other countries think does seem to matter to Israelis at the same time.

That's true. Israel does not care about the views of other countries.

Which country determines how to defend its citizens, by asking the opinion of Russia? Or China? Or Saudi Arabia? Or anywhere?

If Mexico right now fired rockets into Texas, do you think we would be asking the UN what they think about it?

NO. We'd be rolling tanks into Mexico, in a matter of days.

Did Russia care what other countries thought when they claimed Crimea?

Did the UK care what Europe thought, when they voted to leave the EU?

Did Saudi Arabia care what other countries thought, when they started a war in Yemen?

Across the entire planet, you don't see countries caring much what other countries think.

Yet with Israel, you think they should? Why are you singling them out? Why is the standard different for Israel, than everyone else?

It is important for most countries to have political cover for their activities and it is the reason for them to engage in propaganda. What other people think of a country justifies all the work of their outreach over and above the governments of other countries to persuade the citizens of other countries to have a positive attitude toward the propagandists' country.

No country needs the consent or approval of other countries to defend themselves, of course, but it is best to have allies and failing that, at least a favorable opinion of foreign citizens to put pressure on the governments of potential enemies. When it comes to a shooting war, propaganda goes into overdrive.

Mexico is a friendly neighbor of the USA and it is inconceivable that it would fire rockets at its most powerful ally.

Russia cared enough about what others thought of its annexation of Crimea to use propaganda in its justification and put out its version of its action in defiance of western democracies. You have only to read the Russian version repeated by members on this discussion board to see that their propaganda worked. The acted like the Russians of Soviet days who had Radio Moscow justify tanks in the streets of Prague in 1968. Today they use Russia Today and Sputnik news.

Leaving the European Union was not wanted by the British government but it is happening because of a referendum.

The Saud family only cares about the governments who buy its oil and supply it with weapons such as outlawed cluster bombs from the UK and the USA. The Saudis have bought these two western allies with oil dollars.

Across the entire planet countries which are potential enemies or who need the support of democracies will try to get citizens on their side because it is the citizens who eventually make the decisions to form governments. The Israelis have some concern about citizens in democracies supporting them but which is why they use the antisemitic card against popular initiatives like Boycott Divestment Sanctions (BDS) and even try to 'take down' politicians judged to be unfriendly to Israel but more importantly, Israel works hard through the Jewish Lobby to keep American politicians on side, knowing that without American cover its conduct would be resisted by the world.

 

[Eloy]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

It never was a "solution". Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict. One side must defeat the other side. Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory. That is the only solution.

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

View attachment 106657

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

It's not only a Divine Right issue. For 2,000 years the Jews have been subject to pogroms, blood libels, inquisitions, Crusades, expulsions, massacres, and a Holocaust. They want only one tiny corner of the world to call their own. My own grandparents were forced out of Europe and they couldn't get visas to America at that time (now it's much easier), so they HAD to go to Israel. Ethiopian Jews went there because of famine, Russian Jews when the USSR collapsed, and French Jews now due to anti-Semitism. One dot on the globe.

The dot on the globe is a lot bigger than Gaza and it was already the property of the indigenous Arabs.

 

[Eloy]

Arab Muslims all over the Middle East and their governments live in peace with Israel so there is no reason to deny Palestinian Arabs will not do the same given the opportunity by their occupiers.

They had the opportunity with Gaza. They have the opportunity right now. Right now! Live in peace. Just do it. No more attacks on Israeli citizens. Starting today. Why is this so hard?

It doesn't matter what they do. They will still get their houses bulldozed to make room for more illegal settlements.

And they should. It is rightfully Israeli land.

Plus, if you attack Israel, you should have your house bulldozed.

They do not need to attack so called Israel. The root of Israel's settler colonialism is to get rid of the Palestinians and move in illegal Israeli settlers. What the Palestinians do or do not do does not change Israel's standard policy.

I think that does happen sometimes.

I haven't seen nearly as much proof of this, as claimed, but I think it does happen now and then.

Israel hasn't been given much reason to work with the Palestinian authority, and Hamas is a terrorist organization at heart.

So naturally it's difficult to get building permits approved. Thus many buildings are built without permit or property right. Which then causes those buildings to be demolished.

However, this is the land of Israel. It is rightfully Israeli land.

The Bible has predicted this for thousands on thousands of years. You need to either be Israeli citizens, and live under Israeli law... or leave. You are not going to win this fight. I promise you.

Forget the Bible. Establishing a Jewish state in the middle of Arab land has caused all the bloodshed. The land is rightfully Arab regardless of the Biblical myths. By going one step further and occupying the West Bank and blockading Gaza, the Israelis went one step too far. The world has had its fill of the half century brutal occupation and if the two-state solution is not saved then neither will Israel even as a pretended democracy. It is probably too late for the Paris conference to day to do anything.

 

[Hollie]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

It never was a "solution". Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict. One side must defeat the other side. Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory. That is the only solution.

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

View attachment 106657

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

It's not only a Divine Right issue. For 2,000 years the Jews have been subject to pogroms, blood libels, inquisitions, Crusades, expulsions, massacres, and a Holocaust. They want only one tiny corner of the world to call their own. My own grandparents were forced out of Europe and they couldn't get visas to America at that time (now it's much easier), so they HAD to go to Israel. Ethiopian Jews went there because of famine, Russian Jews when the USSR collapsed, and French Jews now due to anti-Semitism. One dot on the globe.

The dot on the globe is a lot bigger than Gaza and it was already the property of the indigenous Arabs.

If you are suggesting that the geographic area called Pal'istan was the "property of the indigenous Arabs", that would be wrong. That geographic area was controlled at various times by various invaders, conquerors, more recently by the Ottoman Turks. They released all rights and title to the area which fell under control of the Mandatory.

This silly reference to "indigenous Arabs owning the land" is another falsehood reiterated by those pressing an agenda.

 

[Hollie]

They had the opportunity with Gaza. They have the opportunity right now. Right now! Live in peace. Just do it. No more attacks on Israeli citizens. Starting today. Why is this so hard?

It doesn't matter what they do. They will still get their houses bulldozed to make room for more illegal settlements.

And they should. It is rightfully Israeli land.

Plus, if you attack Israel, you should have your house bulldozed.

They do not need to attack so called Israel. The root of Israel's settler colonialism is to get rid of the Palestinians and move in illegal Israeli settlers. What the Palestinians do or do not do does not change Israel's standard policy.

I think that does happen sometimes.

I haven't seen nearly as much proof of this, as claimed, but I think it does happen now and then.

Israel hasn't been given much reason to work with the Palestinian authority, and Hamas is a terrorist organization at heart.

So naturally it's difficult to get building permits approved. Thus many buildings are built without permit or property right. Which then causes those buildings to be demolished.

However, this is the land of Israel. It is rightfully Israeli land.

The Bible has predicted this for thousands on thousands of years. You need to either be Israeli citizens, and live under Israeli law... or leave. You are not going to win this fight. I promise you.

Forget the Bible. Establishing a Jewish state in the middle of Arab land has caused all the bloodshed. The land is rightfully Arab regardless of the Biblical myths. By going one step further and occupying the West Bank and blockading Gaza, the Israelis went one step too far. The world has had its fill of the half century brutal occupation and if the two-state solution is not saved then neither will Israel even as a pretended democracy. It is probably too late for the Paris conference to day to do anything.

Brutal occupation™

Rightfully Arab land™

".... because I say so".

 

[Indeependent]

Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.

I believe the Palestinians want Palestine recognized as a state and are prepared to live in peace. Israel wants peace too but only on conditions. I also think Israel does not want Palestine as a neighbor but would prefer a system of reservations for Palestinians which they could call any name they like.

Remember that each side is speaking from the perspective of religious madness. Neither will give up their presumed holy inheritance willingly. Not even in part.

Over 90% of Israelis are NOT religious in any way whatsoever.

That is not what I have read. Last I checked, according to a 2007 survey, 50% of self-proclaimed secular Jews, practiced Judaism.

25% of the population were orthodox Jews. That percentage is just of Jews only, and doesn't include 17% that are Israeli Muslim, 2% Israeli Christian, and 1% Israeli Druzi.

Based on that survey alone, I would conservatively estimate that more than 50% of Israelis are very religious. At the very least, 1/3rd are.

And that survey is 10 years old. The numbers were growing, not declining, on religious views. My guess is, a greater number today are practicing religion, than in 2007.

Totally incorrect.
The overwhelming numbers that are increasing in observance are from the already observant family as their birthrate is far higher than the secular Jews.

 

[Phoenall]

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

View attachment 106657

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you because USMessageBoard is for people to express their opinions no matter how dumb others think of them.

So, I will keep it brief. Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line. This is the country which is a member state of the United Nations. The UN member state of Israel then does not include any part of the Occupied Territories. For decades the UN has held the opinion that these Occupied Territories should become the state of Palestine with mutually agreed land swaps along the 1967 de facto border.

It is hoped that the seventy countries represented at the Paris summit tomorrow (John Kerry included) will kick-start a serious effort on the part of Israel and Palestine to a two-state solution. This means, according to the draft of the topics, that Israel will stop its opposition to a Palestinian state.

For the reasons I gave earlier in the Opening Post, I cannot see this happening. Consequently, countries will continue to recognize Palestine and the conflict will continue as Israel becomes an apartheid Jewish state in all of the former British Mandate territory or it will change its mind and also recognize Palestine. The world will most certainly not be spectators of an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs who are going nowhere.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter.

The point wasn't to insult you. And there are many many topics we can discuss that perhaps we can reach some conclusion.

The problem with this specific topic, is that everyone's opinion on it, really doesn't matter. The opinions of the people in Israel (Arabs and Jews), are the only opinions that matter. They are the ones being attacked, and attacking back.

If I have a guy move into the house next door to me, and he is set and determined to rape my daughter, and I'm set and determined to stop him.... you or anyone else coming along saying "Well I think you should accept him", I'm not going to care what you think. Me and this dude next door are going to be having a war.

Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line.

That's like saying you don't agree that Crimea is part of Russia now. Do you think the Russians care that we don't accept Crimea as part of Russia? Do you seem them pulling back? Do you see them withdrawing troops? Do you see them stopping the fighting in Ukraine?

That's my point to you.

What you, and the rest of the world "agrees" or "accepts", doesn't matter to either the Jews or the Arabs.

The Jews see the entire land as their rightful ancient home land, and they stake a claim on all of it, whether you or the rest of the world 'agrees' it's theirs or not.

The Arabs see the entire Israeli nation as unacceptable, and they will fight against it until they die, whether you or the rest of the world 'accepts' it or not.

The problem with the "world opinion" is that you are looking at it from the outside, from an outside perspective, with outside views and values.

You need to look at this conflict from the inside perspective, with inside views and perspectives.

Which is why I have said the "two-state solution" is simply not a solution. It simply isn't. All you are going to do, is setup a new way for the Arabs to arm themselves, and form an organized military to fight the Jews with. And the Jews will fight back, and the Arabs will lose, and one of two things will happen... Either we'll end up back where we are now, with Israel occupying Gaza and the west bank, or the conflict will draw in the world, and end up a world war.

It's simply NOT a solution. One of these two groups must win, and the other must lose.

The only good news is that a record number of Palestinians are leaving Gaza.

The Israelis seem not to care about the views of other countries except the USA yet they have a habit of defending Israel through Friends of Israel in foreign political parties and making many accusations about "antisemitism" in other countries, an accusation which puts the fear of God into European politicians given the history of the Final Solution. So, what other countries think does seem to matter to Israelis at the same time.

That's true. Israel does not care about the views of other countries.

Which country determines how to defend its citizens, by asking the opinion of Russia? Or China? Or Saudi Arabia? Or anywhere?

If Mexico right now fired rockets into Texas, do you think we would be asking the UN what they think about it?

NO. We'd be rolling tanks into Mexico, in a matter of days.

Did Russia care what other countries thought when they claimed Crimea?

Did the UK care what Europe thought, when they voted to leave the EU?

Did Saudi Arabia care what other countries thought, when they started a war in Yemen?

Across the entire planet, you don't see countries caring much what other countries think.

Yet with Israel, you think they should? Why are you singling them out? Why is the standard different for Israel, than everyone else?

It is important for most countries to have political cover for their activities and it is the reason for them to engage in propaganda. What other people think of a country justifies all the work of their outreach over and above the governments of other countries to persuade the citizens of other countries to have a positive attitude toward the propagandists' country.

No country needs the consent or approval of other countries to defend themselves, of course, but it is best to have allies and failing that, at least a favorable opinion of foreign citizens to put pressure on the governments of potential enemies. When it comes to a shooting war, propaganda goes into overdrive.

Mexico is a friendly neighbor of the USA and it is inconceivable that it would fire rockets at its most powerful ally.

Russia cared enough about what others thought of its annexation of Crimea to use propaganda in its justification and put out its version of its action in defiance of western democracies. You have only to read the Russian version repeated by members on this discussion board to see that their propaganda worked. The acted like the Russians of Soviet days who had Radio Moscow justify tanks in the streets of Prague in 1968. Today they use Russia Today and Sputnik news.

Leaving the European Union was not wanted by the British government but it is happening because of a referendum.

The Saud family only cares about the governments who buy its oil and supply it with weapons such as outlawed cluster bombs from the UK and the USA. The Saudis have bought these two western allies with oil dollars.

Across the entire planet countries which are potential enemies or who need the support of democracies will try to get citizens on their side because it is the citizens who eventually make the decisions to form governments. The Israelis have some concern about citizens in democracies supporting them but which is why they use the antisemitic card against popular initiatives like Boycott Divestment Sanctions (BDS) and even try to 'take down' politicians judged to be unfriendly to Israel but more importantly, Israel works hard through the Jewish Lobby to keep American politicians on side, knowing that without American cover its conduct would be resisted by the world.

Complete of topic waffle because you dont want to be seen as one of those that have followed the Jew hatred mantra. You are found out and dont like being stared at all the time, having the whispers start and the furtive looks. As for "taking down" politicians in the UK it means dishing the dirt on them so they are more open to suggestion and not as you in the US use it to shoot them down. Do you know that islam pays more in bribes to US politicians to get preferential treatment than Israel does. Hardlt surprising seeing as islam is founded on cheating