Can Paris summit save two-state solution?

[Phoenall]

Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.

I believe the Palestinians want Palestine recognized as a state and are prepared to live in peace. Israel wants peace too but only on conditions. I also think Israel does not want Palestine as a neighbor but would prefer a system of reservations for Palestinians which they could call any name they like.

So you ignore the well published and much touted palestinian demands for pre conditions before they will even meet. Demands that are illegal and unworkable to such an extent that even the UN finds fault with then.

It is already recognised as a state, what it wants is the world to lavish it with money so they wont start a terrorist war that will spread. They dont want to work and earn their place in society, they want to be free loaders

 

[Andylusion]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

It never was a "solution". Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict. One side must defeat the other side. Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory. That is the only solution.

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

 

[Eloy]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

It never was a "solution". Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict. One side must defeat the other side. Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory. That is the only solution.

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

View attachment 106657

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you because USMessageBoard is for people to express their opinions no matter how dumb others think of them.

So, I will keep it brief. Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line. This is the country which is a member state of the United Nations. The UN member state of Israel then does not include any part of the Occupied Territories. For decades the UN has held the opinion that these Occupied Territories should become the state of Palestine with mutually agreed land swaps along the 1967 de facto border.

It is hoped that the seventy countries represented at the Paris summit tomorrow (John Kerry included) will kick-start a serious effort on the part of Israel and Palestine to a two-state solution. This means, according to the draft of the topics, that Israel will stop its opposition to a Palestinian state.

For the reasons I gave earlier in the Opening Post, I cannot see this happening. Consequently, countries will continue to recognize Palestine and the conflict will continue as Israel becomes an apartheid Jewish state in all of the former British Mandate territory or it will change its mind and also recognize Palestine. The world will most certainly not be spectators of an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs who are going nowhere.

 

[montelatici]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

It never was a "solution". Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict. One side must defeat the other side. Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory. That is the only solution.

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

View attachment 106657

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

Most of the ancestors of the Palestinians practiced Judaism before the birth of Christ and spoke Aramaic. That they adopted Arabic as a language and most (but not all) converted from Christianity to Islam does not change who their ancestors are. The European converts to Judaism that invaded Palestine have very little, if any native ancestry in Palestine.

By the way, Arab (like Hispanic) is cultural and linguistic construct, not an ethnicity. A black Sudanese or a red haired berber will describe themselves as Arab. You are confusing Arabian (a Bedouin from Arabia) with Arab, or in the case of Palestine Muslim and Christian Levantines that speak Arabic.

"Most Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of European women who converted to Judaism, possibly around the time of the early Roman empire,"
read more: Study traces Ashkenazi roots to European women who probably converted to Judaism

 

[esthermoon]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

I don't believe in international summit. 99% of times they end up with nothing...
They just talk during the summit.... and live lavish
Israelis and Palestinians shouldn't think this summit can be useful for them!

 

[rhodescholar]

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

Decades ago I believed a 2-state might be possible, but after the ma'alot massacre and other arab muslim-driven terrorist attacks that were widely supported by them, plus the lebanese civil war started by the muslims, convinced me that peace is not possible with musims - they can only be eliminated and crushed. Thomas Jefferson and Winston Churchill said the same thing, and it is true to this day. islam is a death cult and must be destroyed; either do it now, or in a few decades when it will be much harder.

 

[rhodescholar]

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you because USMessageBoard is for people to express their opinions no matter how dumb others think of them.

So, I will keep it brief. Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line. This is the country which is a member state of the United Nations. The UN member state of Israel then does not include any part of the Occupied Territories. For decades the UN has held the opinion that these Occupied Territories should become the state of Palestine with mutually agreed land swaps along the 1967 de facto border.

It is hoped that the seventy countries represented at the Paris summit tomorrow (John Kerry included) will kick-start a serious effort on the part of Israel and Palestine to a two-state solution. This means, according to the draft of the topics, that Israel will stop its opposition to a Palestinian state.

For the reasons I gave earlier in the Opening Post, I cannot see this happening. Consequently, countries will continue to recognize Palestine and the conflict will continue as Israel becomes an apartheid Jewish state in all of the former British Mandate territory or it will change its mind and also recognize Palestine. The world will most certainly not be spectators of an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs who are going nowhere.

Dishonest scum like this is a big part of the problem; if there were 2 states the hostile arab muslim filth (a majority of them) and the iranian vermin would simply move their terrorism and violence closer, just as this filth did in lebanon and gaza when Israel exited those places. There is nothing in the PA's policies or school curriculum that show that the arab muslims/iran have any intention of ever accepting peace with Israel, none.

I am not willing to sacrifice 5 MM jews to prove my point correct as I do not need to; the recent wave of stabbings and other terrorist attacks already do so nicely except to lying arab muslim filth like the dogshit I quoted above, and their useful idiot leftist allies/apologists in the West, who are responsible for enabling the arab muslim terrorists and their terrorism for decades.

 

[rhodescholar]

I don't believe in international summit. 99% of times they end up with nothing...
They just talk during the summit.... and live lavish
Israelis and Palestinians shouldn't think this summit can be useful for them!

You have to realize there is an entire INDUSTRY of people, in the UN, EU and amongst the fakestinians, who make a very successful living off of stoking and maintaining this conflict.

As you pointed out, lots of people get to enjoy weeks at nice hotels with fine meals in beautiful places discussing nonsense for a week or more at a time, pretending to be "solving" this conflict. What would a completely useless piece of shit like saeb erekat be doing if he couldn't pretend to be a "top negotiator" for the fakestinians? What has he accomplished over the past 30 years or so in his role?

Even more to the point, how much aid dollars will the fakestinians get the day a peace accord is signed? Does anyone sane think that they would willingly give up those handouts? Why do you think arafat never did and never would sign a peace deal? It's hard to convince deluded, clueless people to support you and shower money on you if the "revolution" is over, and a peace deal signed. That's a cash cow the fakestinians will ride for the next 1,000 years if they can, all the way from suha arafat's $100K per month budget for life provided by the PA onward.

 

[Phoenall]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

It never was a "solution". Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict. One side must defeat the other side. Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory. That is the only solution.

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

View attachment 106657

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you because USMessageBoard is for people to express their opinions no matter how dumb others think of them.

So, I will keep it brief. Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line. This is the country which is a member state of the United Nations. The UN member state of Israel then does not include any part of the Occupied Territories. For decades the UN has held the opinion that these Occupied Territories should become the state of Palestine with mutually agreed land swaps along the 1967 de facto border.

It is hoped that the seventy countries represented at the Paris summit tomorrow (John Kerry included) will kick-start a serious effort on the part of Israel and Palestine to a two-state solution. This means, according to the draft of the topics, that Israel will stop its opposition to a Palestinian state.

For the reasons I gave earlier in the Opening Post, I cannot see this happening. Consequently, countries will continue to recognize Palestine and the conflict will continue as Israel becomes an apartheid Jewish state in all of the former British Mandate territory or it will change its mind and also recognize Palestine. The world will most certainly not be spectators of an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs who are going nowhere.

The nations of the world do not think of Israel as a nation to the 1967 ceasefire lines at all, they accept Israel full stop. Tthe Jews were a nation in 1948 and had sovereignty over their lands.
Your words show how little regard you hold for international laws when they are in Israel's favour as the LoN granted Isreal 22% of palestine in 1922, the rest went to the arab muslims. The delineation is available for anyone willing to look for it. The UN illegally tried to partition the Jewish national home in 1947 and the arab muslims showed their views by invading the mandate of palestine with the intention of wiping out the Jews.

There is already a two state solution in place with the arab muslims getting 78% of palestine and the Jews having the remainder. The world accepted that from 1922 to 1947 so why the change of heart in the mid 1940's, was it a rise in Nazism amongst the world leaders that led to the Jews being nearly wiped out. A stain on the whole world that is raising its ugly head once more, fired by arab nationalism and their attempt at world domination. The first step that must be taken by the world nations is to get the arab league to revoke the Khartoum agreement and leave the way open for the arab muslims to start negotiations with Israel without that there can not be a start on peace talks.

 

[Eloy]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

I don't believe in international summit. 99% of times they end up with nothing...
They just talk during the summit.... and live lavish
Israelis and Palestinians shouldn't think this summit can be useful for them!

The Israelis have already written it off as a dead loss.

 

[Lipush]

Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.

I believe the Palestinians want Palestine recognized as a state and are prepared to live in peace.

 

[esthermoon]

Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.

Unfortunately I think you can be right

 

[Lipush]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

It never was a "solution". Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict. One side must defeat the other side. Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory. That is the only solution.

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

So Jews returning to Israel is the problem now? That is such an Anti Israeli Bullshit! Israel agreed to the 1948 two states solution, the Arabs refused, the opened a war, lost, and then for 70 years whine about us not willing to lose to them!

That is like the little sibling crying "It all started when he slapped me back".

 

[Andylusion]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

It never was a "solution". Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict. One side must defeat the other side. Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory. That is the only solution.

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

View attachment 106657

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you because USMessageBoard is for people to express their opinions no matter how dumb others think of them.

So, I will keep it brief. Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line. This is the country which is a member state of the United Nations. The UN member state of Israel then does not include any part of the Occupied Territories. For decades the UN has held the opinion that these Occupied Territories should become the state of Palestine with mutually agreed land swaps along the 1967 de facto border.

It is hoped that the seventy countries represented at the Paris summit tomorrow (John Kerry included) will kick-start a serious effort on the part of Israel and Palestine to a two-state solution. This means, according to the draft of the topics, that Israel will stop its opposition to a Palestinian state.

For the reasons I gave earlier in the Opening Post, I cannot see this happening. Consequently, countries will continue to recognize Palestine and the conflict will continue as Israel becomes an apartheid Jewish state in all of the former British Mandate territory or it will change its mind and also recognize Palestine. The world will most certainly not be spectators of an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs who are going nowhere.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter.

The point wasn't to insult you. And there are many many topics we can discuss that perhaps we can reach some conclusion.

The problem with this specific topic, is that everyone's opinion on it, really doesn't matter. The opinions of the people in Israel (Arabs and Jews), are the only opinions that matter. They are the ones being attacked, and attacking back.

If I have a guy move into the house next door to me, and he is set and determined to rape my daughter, and I'm set and determined to stop him.... you or anyone else coming along saying "Well I think you should accept him", I'm not going to care what you think. Me and this dude next door are going to be having a war.

Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line.

That's like saying you don't agree that Crimea is part of Russia now. Do you think the Russians care that we don't accept Crimea as part of Russia? Do you seem them pulling back? Do you see them withdrawing troops? Do you see them stopping the fighting in Ukraine?

That's my point to you.

What you, and the rest of the world "agrees" or "accepts", doesn't matter to either the Jews or the Arabs.

The Jews see the entire land as their rightful ancient home land, and they stake a claim on all of it, whether you or the rest of the world 'agrees' it's theirs or not.

The Arabs see the entire Israeli nation as unacceptable, and they will fight against it until they die, whether you or the rest of the world 'accepts' it or not.

The problem with the "world opinion" is that you are looking at it from the outside, from an outside perspective, with outside views and values.

You need to look at this conflict from the inside perspective, with inside views and perspectives.

Which is why I have said the "two-state solution" is simply not a solution. It simply isn't. All you are going to do, is setup a new way for the Arabs to arm themselves, and form an organized military to fight the Jews with. And the Jews will fight back, and the Arabs will lose, and one of two things will happen... Either we'll end up back where we are now, with Israel occupying Gaza and the west bank, or the conflict will draw in the world, and end up a world war.

It's simply NOT a solution. One of these two groups must win, and the other must lose.

The only good news is that a record number of Palestinians are leaving Gaza.

 

[Eloy]

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build ad infinitum.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.

It never was a "solution". Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict. One side must defeat the other side. Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory. That is the only solution.

We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron. Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"

This statement is entirely false. 100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land. This is a fact. They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact. This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode. So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda. When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that forbade "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited.​

See? They didn't kick these guys out. Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.
​

So let's recap. The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves. They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights. Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.

No, you don't understand my position. I'm not saying what there should, or should not be. That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in? "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in? "But this is judged to not be a solution...." WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!! Nations around the world will say...."

WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?

See a problem there sparky? One group says there can not be an Israeli state. Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group....... which goal..... do you think.... can be met half way?

View attachment 106657

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal: Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal: Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution..... here's a Palestine Arab state.

What do you think, has been fixed here?

You fixed nothing. The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed. There is no co-exist solution. Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think. None of that matters. These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail. There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you because USMessageBoard is for people to express their opinions no matter how dumb others think of them.

So, I will keep it brief. Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line. This is the country which is a member state of the United Nations. The UN member state of Israel then does not include any part of the Occupied Territories. For decades the UN has held the opinion that these Occupied Territories should become the state of Palestine with mutually agreed land swaps along the 1967 de facto border.

It is hoped that the seventy countries represented at the Paris summit tomorrow (John Kerry included) will kick-start a serious effort on the part of Israel and Palestine to a two-state solution. This means, according to the draft of the topics, that Israel will stop its opposition to a Palestinian state.

For the reasons I gave earlier in the Opening Post, I cannot see this happening. Consequently, countries will continue to recognize Palestine and the conflict will continue as Israel becomes an apartheid Jewish state in all of the former British Mandate territory or it will change its mind and also recognize Palestine. The world will most certainly not be spectators of an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs who are going nowhere.

I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter.

The point wasn't to insult you. And there are many many topics we can discuss that perhaps we can reach some conclusion.

The problem with this specific topic, is that everyone's opinion on it, really doesn't matter. The opinions of the people in Israel (Arabs and Jews), are the only opinions that matter. They are the ones being attacked, and attacking back.

If I have a guy move into the house next door to me, and he is set and determined to rape my daughter, and I'm set and determined to stop him.... you or anyone else coming along saying "Well I think you should accept him", I'm not going to care what you think. Me and this dude next door are going to be having a war.

Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line.

That's like saying you don't agree that Crimea is part of Russia now. Do you think the Russians care that we don't accept Crimea as part of Russia? Do you seem them pulling back? Do you see them withdrawing troops? Do you see them stopping the fighting in Ukraine?

That's my point to you.

What you, and the rest of the world "agrees" or "accepts", doesn't matter to either the Jews or the Arabs.

The Jews see the entire land as their rightful ancient home land, and they stake a claim on all of it, whether you or the rest of the world 'agrees' it's theirs or not.

The Arabs see the entire Israeli nation as unacceptable, and they will fight against it until they die, whether you or the rest of the world 'accepts' it or not.

The problem with the "world opinion" is that you are looking at it from the outside, from an outside perspective, with outside views and values.

You need to look at this conflict from the inside perspective, with inside views and perspectives.

Which is why I have said the "two-state solution" is simply not a solution. It simply isn't. All you are going to do, is setup a new way for the Arabs to arm themselves, and form an organized military to fight the Jews with. And the Jews will fight back, and the Arabs will lose, and one of two things will happen... Either we'll end up back where we are now, with Israel occupying Gaza and the west bank, or the conflict will draw in the world, and end up a world war.

It's simply NOT a solution. One of these two groups must win, and the other must lose.

The only good news is that a record number of Palestinians are leaving Gaza.

The Israelis seem not to care about the views of other countries except the USA yet they have a habit of defending Israel through Friends of Israel in foreign political parties and making many accusations about "antisemitism" in other countries, an accusation which puts the fear of God into European politicians given the history of the Final Solution. So, what other countries think does seem to matter to Israelis at the same time.

 

[Coyote]

Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.

I believe the Palestinians want Palestine recognized as a state and are prepared to live in peace. Israel wants peace too but only on conditions. I also think Israel does not want Palestine as a neighbor but would prefer a system of reservations for Palestinians which they could call any name they like.

3 state solution.

This is not on the Paris agenda.

I think it's more complicated than the article lets on - it's a bit one sided.

Yes the settlements are an obstacle, a big one from the Palestinian perspective as it literally prevents a second viable state and yes, Netanyahu has been giving lip service to a two state solution and buying time by ramping up the settlements.

BUT

There are other obstacles to negotiation that need to be recognized.

Lack of a negotiating partner who can speak for all the Palestinians.
Continued violence against Israeli civilians.

I think a 3-state solution should be considered...

 

[fncceo]

I think a 3-state solution should be considered...

How about a solution where the Israelis and Palestinians work it out for themselves and where the rest of the world keeps their sticky beaks out of it.

 

[Coyote]

I think a 3-state solution should be considered...

How about a solution where the Israelis and Palestinians work it out for themselves and where the rest of the world keeps their sticky beaks out of it.

It affects the rest of the world...and...I doubt a just solution would be arrived at.

 

[Eloy]

Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.

I believe the Palestinians want Palestine recognized as a state and are prepared to live in peace. Israel wants peace too but only on conditions. I also think Israel does not want Palestine as a neighbor but would prefer a system of reservations for Palestinians which they could call any name they like.

3 state solution.

This is not on the Paris agenda.

I think it's more complicated than the article lets on - it's a bit one sided.

Yes the settlements are an obstacle, a big one from the Palestinian perspective as it literally prevents a second viable state and yes, Netanyahu has been giving lip service to a two state solution and buying time by ramping up the settlements.

BUT

There are other obstacles to negotiation that need to be recognized.

Lack of a negotiating partner who can speak for all the Palestinians.
Continued violence against Israeli civilians.

I think a 3-state solution should be considered...

The PLO can negotiate with the Israelis if they want to waste another half century.

There is continued violence by the IDF and settlers against Palestinians.

 

[fncceo]

It affects the rest of the world

How ... precisely ... does it affect the rest of the world? Any more than any other regional dispute? Why not have 75 nation summits over Ukraine or Kashmir or the Chagos Archipelago?