Can Obama save the Democrats?

[berg80]

When Trump won in 2016, I expressed concern that the blowback from the hardcore Left would be so strong that the Democratic Party would be taken over by the illiberal, authoritarian Regressive Left, leaving us with a truly fucked up choice in 2020.

But you weren't concerned Trump's election marked a GOP takeover by the illiberal, authoritarian, bigoted, regressive Right?

Of course I was. I voted against him. That's the point: That leaves us with a lousy choice next year.
.

Just curious, do you view the democratization of health care as authoritarian? Personally, I'm in favor of an expansion of a public option so those who want to stay with employer based health care can. But I suspect the bargaining power gained by a public option will attract so many participants employer based policies may go by the wayside over time.

 

[Mac1958]

Just curious, do you view the democratization of health care as authoritarian?

No, I think most of the authoritarianism coming from the Left is cultural, in the form of Political Correctness and Identity Politics and the intimidation and dishonesty that stems from that. That's not liberalism. So I call those who are pushing that stuff illiberal Leftist Authoritarians.

Regarding health care, I sure don't like seeing Bernie and the Democrats lie when they call what they actually want - Single Payer - "Medicare for All". The actual Medicare system includes a strong free market component that promotes competition and innovation with Medicare Advantage and Medicare Supplement plans. What I'd like to see is an expansion of the REAL Medicare system to all, with some tweaks.
.

 

[BrokeLoser]

Just curious, do you view the democratization of health care as authoritarian?

No, I think most of the authoritarianism coming from the Left is cultural, in the form of Political Correctness and Identity Politics and the intimidation and dishonesty that stems from that. That's not liberalism. So I call those who are pushing that stuff illiberal Leftist Authoritarians.

Regarding health care, I sure don't like seeing Bernie and the Democrats lie when they call what they actually want - Single Payer - "Medicare for All". The actual Medicare system includes a strong free market component that promotes competition and innovation with Medicare Advantage and Medicare Supplement plans. What I'd like to see is an expansion of the REAL Medicare system to all, with some tweaks.
.

"What I'd like to see is an expansion of the REAL Medicare system to all, with some tweaks."
berg80 ask Mac if he'd like this "expansion" to be extended to Mexico's citizens whom traverse our border?

 

[Mac1958]

Just curious, do you view the democratization of health care as authoritarian?

No, I think most of the authoritarianism coming from the Left is cultural, in the form of Political Correctness and Identity Politics and the intimidation and dishonesty that stems from that. That's not liberalism. So I call those who are pushing that stuff illiberal Leftist Authoritarians.

Regarding health care, I sure don't like seeing Bernie and the Democrats lie when they call what they actually want - Single Payer - "Medicare for All". The actual Medicare system includes a strong free market component that promotes competition and innovation with Medicare Advantage and Medicare Supplement plans. What I'd like to see is an expansion of the REAL Medicare system to all, with some tweaks.
.

"What I'd like to see is an expansion of the REAL Medicare system to all, with some tweaks."
berg80 ask Mac if he'd like this "expansion" to be extended to Mexico's citizens whom traverse our border?

Of course not.

Unfortunately, you've already admitted that my view on that topic is just "smart guy mumbo jumbo", so I don't think I can help you.
.

 

[BrokeLoser]

Just curious, do you view the democratization of health care as authoritarian?

No, I think most of the authoritarianism coming from the Left is cultural, in the form of Political Correctness and Identity Politics and the intimidation and dishonesty that stems from that. That's not liberalism. So I call those who are pushing that stuff illiberal Leftist Authoritarians.

Regarding health care, I sure don't like seeing Bernie and the Democrats lie when they call what they actually want - Single Payer - "Medicare for All". The actual Medicare system includes a strong free market component that promotes competition and innovation with Medicare Advantage and Medicare Supplement plans. What I'd like to see is an expansion of the REAL Medicare system to all, with some tweaks.
.

"What I'd like to see is an expansion of the REAL Medicare system to all, with some tweaks."
berg80 ask Mac if he'd like this "expansion" to be extended to Mexico's citizens whom traverse our border?

Of course not.

Unfortunately, you've already admitted that my view on that topic is just "smart guy mumbo jumbo", so I don't think I can help you.
.

Oh okay..got it.
There's been lots of discussion about free healthcare for illegals and I couldn't recall you ever posting a condemnation of such lunacy in prior threads...I'm certain you can link us to atleast one...right?

 

[Mac1958]

Just curious, do you view the democratization of health care as authoritarian?

No, I think most of the authoritarianism coming from the Left is cultural, in the form of Political Correctness and Identity Politics and the intimidation and dishonesty that stems from that. That's not liberalism. So I call those who are pushing that stuff illiberal Leftist Authoritarians.

Regarding health care, I sure don't like seeing Bernie and the Democrats lie when they call what they actually want - Single Payer - "Medicare for All". The actual Medicare system includes a strong free market component that promotes competition and innovation with Medicare Advantage and Medicare Supplement plans. What I'd like to see is an expansion of the REAL Medicare system to all, with some tweaks.
.

"What I'd like to see is an expansion of the REAL Medicare system to all, with some tweaks."
berg80 ask Mac if he'd like this "expansion" to be extended to Mexico's citizens whom traverse our border?

Of course not.

Unfortunately, you've already admitted that my view on that topic is just "smart guy mumbo jumbo", so I don't think I can help you.
.

Oh okay..got it.
There's been lots of discussion about free healthcare for illegals and I couldn't recall you ever posting a condemnation of such lunacy in prior threads...I'm certain you can link us to atleast one...right?

I don't recall, and don't care enough about your opinion to look it up. But I just gave you a direct answer to your direct question.

Hopefully you understood it.
.

 

[BrokeLoser]

Just curious, do you view the democratization of health care as authoritarian?

No, I think most of the authoritarianism coming from the Left is cultural, in the form of Political Correctness and Identity Politics and the intimidation and dishonesty that stems from that. That's not liberalism. So I call those who are pushing that stuff illiberal Leftist Authoritarians.

Regarding health care, I sure don't like seeing Bernie and the Democrats lie when they call what they actually want - Single Payer - "Medicare for All". The actual Medicare system includes a strong free market component that promotes competition and innovation with Medicare Advantage and Medicare Supplement plans. What I'd like to see is an expansion of the REAL Medicare system to all, with some tweaks.
.

"What I'd like to see is an expansion of the REAL Medicare system to all, with some tweaks."
berg80 ask Mac if he'd like this "expansion" to be extended to Mexico's citizens whom traverse our border?

Of course not.

Unfortunately, you've already admitted that my view on that topic is just "smart guy mumbo jumbo", so I don't think I can help you.
.

Oh okay..got it.
There's been lots of discussion about free healthcare for illegals and I couldn't recall you ever posting a condemnation of such lunacy in prior threads...I'm certain you can link us to atleast one...right?

I don't recall, and don't care enough about your opinion to look it up. But I just gave you a direct answer to your direct question.

Hopefully you understood it.
.

Cool thanks.

 

[task0778]

“He’s warning Democrats that if you buy an agenda that is not relevant or salable in November, you’re guaranteeing Donald Trump a second term.”

I think Obama is right about this, but I also think it's too late for them in 2020. The trajectory the Dems are on is an absolute political disaster and their party is fucked until somebody emerges from the moderate wing to combat the far left loons. I don't think Obama is the person though, he can't run for president again and they need an electable candidate to get behind that isn't bat-shit crazy with nonsensical ideas like the GND. A modern-day FDR if you will. I doubt that such a person could win the Dem primaries this time; maybe in 2024, we'll see how things go after they get their asses kicked.

Full disclosure: I ain't a Democrat and I ain't a Republican either for that matter. I have over my lifetime voted for both parties and also a time or two for a 3rd party person. I've never been happy with the choices (most of the time), but these days it always seems to be the lesser of two evils. I'll be very upfront and honest about it, I do not like Donald Trump. I don't like his personality or his character, and some of his decisions and policies are questionable. But on the whole, what he has done is in my estimation far better than what Clinton would have done and better than whoever the Dems nominate against him next year. Results are what counts, and despite all the distractions and nonsensical obstruction from the Dems he has done very well. And there is no way in hell I can vote for any of the Dems running on their side.

 

[Mac1958]

“He’s warning Democrats that if you buy an agenda that is not relevant or salable in November, you’re guaranteeing Donald Trump a second term.”

I think Obama is right about this, but I also think it's too late for them in 2020. The trajectory the Dems are on is an absolute political disaster and their party is fucked until somebody emerges from the moderate wing to combat the far left loons. I don't think Obama is the person though, he can't run for president again and they need an electable candidate to get behind that isn't bat-shit crazy with nonsensical ideas like the GND. A modern-day FDR if you will. I doubt that such a person could win the Dem primaries this time; maybe in 2024, we'll see how things go after they get their asses kicked.

Full disclosure: I ain't a Democrat and I ain't a Republican either for that matter. I have over my lifetime voted for both parties and also a time or two for a 3rd party person. I've never been happy with the choices (most of the time), but these days it always seems to be the lesser of two evils. I'll be very upfront and honest about it, I do not like Donald Trump. I don't like his personality or his character, and some of his decisions and policies are questionable. But on the whole, what he has done is in my estimation far better than what Clinton would have done and better than whoever the Dems nominate against him next year. Results are what counts, and despite all the distractions and nonsensical obstruction from the Dems he has done very well. And there is no way in hell I can vote for any of the Dems running on their side.

I would have thought that Obama had enough influence to change the party's course, but I'm not sure that will happen. And I'm sure if he knows, either.

This move out from under him has happened at lightning speed.
.

 

[Olde Europe]

Now, the length of our process is part of the problem, where they are pretty much off and running after the midterms, while most of the middle that Vichy Mac longs for doesn't engage until after Labor Day before the election, and then votes for the guy they'd like to have a beer with.

Made me chuckle, that one.

On October 25, 2019, the House of Commons scheduled the next election for December 12, 2019. Barely five weeks ago there was the starting shot, and in less than two weeks it's going to be over.

Now... having what would be a 22 months marathon toward the presidential election makes sense, provided it would result in an astute, well-informed electorate. And after all that, and after billions spent on the educational effort, as you rightly say, they vote for the guy (definitely not the gal) with whom they'd like to have a beer. Or, failing that, for the guy who "sticks it to Them".

There is something utterly grotesque about it all.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

When Trump won in 2016, I expressed concern that the blowback from the hardcore Left would be so strong that the Democratic Party would be taken over by the illiberal, authoritarian Regressive Left, leaving us with a truly fucked up choice in 2020.

So, bang, here we are. Obama sees it, too: Obama looms over divided Democratic primary

So, can Obama save the party?

His latest remarks came last week as Obama met with party donors in California, where he urged Democrats to “chill out” about the primary contest and prepare to rally behind the eventual nominee. But he also appeared to warn against calling for too drastic of change.

“When you listen to the average voter — even ones who aren’t stalwart Democrats, but who are more independent or are low-information voters — they don’t feel that things are working well, but they’re also nervous about changes that might take away what little they have,” Obama said.

For some Democrats, Obama’s remarks reinforced their concerns that the primary field has lurched too far to the left and that the party may be barreling toward a loss in 2020 unless it can unite behind a moderate nominee capable of appealing to a broader swath of voters in the general election.

“I think that to some extent Obama is the canary in the coal mine,” said Dick Harpootlian, a former chair of the South Carolina Democratic Party who is supporting former Vice President Joe Biden’s presidential bid. “He’s warning Democrats that if you buy an agenda that is not relevant or salable in November, you’re guaranteeing Donald Trump a second term.”
.

Still looking for references to "far left" ideas in anything he said. He only referred to "change", period. He is basically telling them, "Just run on steadying the ship and against the current occupant", it appears.

 

[NightFox]

I think Obama is right about this, but I also think it's too late for them in 2020. The trajectory the Dems are on is an absolute political disaster and their party is fucked until somebody emerges from the moderate wing to combat the far left loons.

What about Bloomberg? He's about as "moderate" as you're going to get from the Democrats these days and can probably BUY the nomination and possibly the Presidency if he chooses to.

 

[Mac1958]

When Trump won in 2016, I expressed concern that the blowback from the hardcore Left would be so strong that the Democratic Party would be taken over by the illiberal, authoritarian Regressive Left, leaving us with a truly fucked up choice in 2020.

So, bang, here we are. Obama sees it, too: Obama looms over divided Democratic primary

So, can Obama save the party?

His latest remarks came last week as Obama met with party donors in California, where he urged Democrats to “chill out” about the primary contest and prepare to rally behind the eventual nominee. But he also appeared to warn against calling for too drastic of change.

“When you listen to the average voter — even ones who aren’t stalwart Democrats, but who are more independent or are low-information voters — they don’t feel that things are working well, but they’re also nervous about changes that might take away what little they have,” Obama said.

For some Democrats, Obama’s remarks reinforced their concerns that the primary field has lurched too far to the left and that the party may be barreling toward a loss in 2020 unless it can unite behind a moderate nominee capable of appealing to a broader swath of voters in the general election.

“I think that to some extent Obama is the canary in the coal mine,” said Dick Harpootlian, a former chair of the South Carolina Democratic Party who is supporting former Vice President Joe Biden’s presidential bid. “He’s warning Democrats that if you buy an agenda that is not relevant or salable in November, you’re guaranteeing Donald Trump a second term.”
.

Still looking for references to "far left" ideas in anything he said. He only referred to "change", period. He is basically telling them, "Just run on steadying the ship and against the current occupant", it appears.

All that stuff is/was just standard bullshit partisan hyperbole.

If you're not a Trumpster you're a commie, that kinda thing.
.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

This move out from under him has happened at lightning speed.

Obama campaigned on free community college, covering evryone with health insurance, and raising taxes on the rich. He also got through a student loan forgiveness program, and called for something even bigger.

To which ideas, specifically, are you referring?

 

[Mac1958]

This move out from under him has happened at lightning speed.

Obama campaigned on free community college, covering evryone with health insurance, and raising taxes on the rich. He also got through a student loan forgiveness program, and called for something even bigger.

To which ideas, specifically, are you referring?

You'd have to ask Obama for his specifics. For him to bring this up is pretty telling. I'm sure it's not something he wants to do.

Those in the party who don't know what he's talking about must be the people he's talking about, I'd think.
.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You'd have to ask Obama for his specifics.

No, I am asking the guy who mentioned lurching to the far left and who started a thread on it. I don't find the idea crazy, but it doesn't seem to stand up under scrutiny


So, to which ideas were you referring? Single payer? Hmm, dems have been pushing for that for 30 years. Taxing billionaires? Same.

 

[JoeB131]

Made me chuckle, that one.

On October 25, 2019, the House of Commons scheduled the next election for December 12, 2019. Barely five weeks ago there was the starting shot, and in less than two weeks it's going to be over.

Now... having what would be a 22 months marathon toward the presidential election makes sense, provided it would result in an astute, well-informed electorate. And after all that, and after billions spent on the educational effort, as you rightly say, they vote for the guy (definitely not the gal) with whom they'd like to have a beer. Or, failing that, for the guy who "sticks it to Them".

There is something utterly grotesque about it all.

A couple of things have caused this grotesque marathon.

The first is the distortion of the primary system/ conventions. It used to be that the conventions were spaced out over the entire course of the summer, and usually nobody would go to the convention with enough delegates, so the convention would be where the candidates and platforms were chosen

Now, the candidate is pretty much chosen by Super Tuesday and the conventions are just tax-payer subsidized commercials for the two major parties. In order to compete in the primaries, you have to spend months getting the dedicated volunteers together months in advance, and of course, the insatiable need for money to compete. So this has extended the process, and because the most fanatical and dedicated are willing to put that much effort, you are more likely to get committed partisans than moderates... which I think is what Vichy Mac was bemoaning.

By my measure, the GOP Candidate never falls below 45% and the Democrat hasn't fallen below 48% since 1992.

Now, in Trump's defense, he really was a rejection of BOTH Party establishments.. Bernie was also rejection of the Democratic Party Establishment.... the fact is the parties themselves aren't resonating anymore. It's what guy can get your juices flowing.

Vichy Mac is bemoaning that Sanders might get the nomination and he'll be forced to vote for Trump.. a spurious argument, to be sure. I think what would be more surprising. The Democrats nominate Sanders and he beats Trump because he can speak to the dumb-ass white working class who realize they don't have a middle class lifestyle anymore.

 

[Mac1958]

You'd have to ask Obama for his specifics.

No, I am askimg the guy who mentioned lurching to the far left and who started a thread on it. I don't find the idea crazy, but it doesn't seem to stand up under scrutiny


So, to which ideas were you referring?

Okay, here are a few of the promises being made:

• Universal child care
  
• Debt-free College
• Reparations
• Guaranteed Income
• Single Payer

Even the LA Times admits it: Democrats’ presidential hopefuls jockey to outdo one another with pre-debate promises

Plus, of course, their full-on embrace of every Identity Politics and Political Correctness idea that comes down the road. And Obama himself has spoken out about PC on campus.

I know that won't be good enough. You asked, I answered.
.

 

[task0778]

“He’s warning Democrats that if you buy an agenda that is not relevant or salable in November, you’re guaranteeing Donald Trump a second term.”

I think Obama is right about this, but I also think it's too late for them in 2020. The trajectory the Dems are on is an absolute political disaster and their party is fucked until somebody emerges from the moderate wing to combat the far left loons. I don't think Obama is the person though, he can't run for president again and they need an electable candidate to get behind that isn't bat-shit crazy with nonsensical ideas like the GND. A modern-day FDR if you will. I doubt that such a person could win the Dem primaries this time; maybe in 2024, we'll see how things go after they get their asses kicked.

Full disclosure: I ain't a Democrat and I ain't a Republican either for that matter. I have over my lifetime voted for both parties and also a time or two for a 3rd party person. I've never been happy with the choices (most of the time), but these days it always seems to be the lesser of two evils. I'll be very upfront and honest about it, I do not like Donald Trump. I don't like his personality or his character, and some of his decisions and policies are questionable. But on the whole, what he has done is in my estimation far better than what Clinton would have done and better than whoever the Dems nominate against him next year. Results are what counts, and despite all the distractions and nonsensical obstruction from the Dems he has done very well. And there is no way in hell I can vote for any of the Dems running on their side.

I would have thought that Obama had enough influence to change the party's course, but I'm not sure that will happen. And I'm sure if he knows, either.

This move out from under him has happened at lightning speed.
.

I think Obama does have a lot of influence, but he can't be the next king cuz he was already the king once. Somebody else has to be the next Dem king and as Obama said, that person has to relevant and salable else he/she ain't going to make it to the Oval Office. Obama can be a kingmaker but not the next king, that's what I meant. At some point, the Dem Party has got to come back down to Earth and face the reality that America is not a far left country and they can't get elected to the presidency espousing far left policies.

There IS a caveat to all this, and that is if and when the next recession or depression or war hits. Just like when FDR ran against Hoover, there could be a lot of anti-GOP sentiment out there that could propel a Dem into the WH in 2024 or maybe 2028. Or maybe Trump does something really stupid like Nixon did. I wouldn't put it past him, I wouldn't be surprised if some of his people have already talked him out of doing several really stupid things.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Os ineptitude led us to a radical lunatic left charging towards nihilism. Hes complicit.