Calling Out Alang1216: The God of Abraham is a myth

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I think not being around to see it is a perfectly good excuse. If God expects us to believe in him, and not just take someone's word for it, I think he needs to step up his game. The evidence you've offered certainly would never stand up in any court.

Other than for us to exist I don't know what God expects.

As for the evidence not standing up in court, Sir Lionel Luckhoo would disagree and he is an expert on evidence and courts.

“I say unequivocally, the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”

Did Jesus Really Rise from the Dead? A Lawyer’s Perspective | Leomisnter Spanaish Youth

Sir Lionel Luckhoo, a world-renowned defense attorney, applied legal reasoning to the resurrection of Jesus and concluded that the evidence was overwhelming and left no room for doubt. Key factors supporting the resurrection include multiple eyewitness testimonies, the undisputed empty tomb...

leominsterspanishadventistyouth.com

 

[alang1216]

Other than for us to exist I don't know what God expects.

As for the evidence not standing up in court, Sir Lionel Luckhoo would disagree and he is an expert on evidence and courts.

“I say unequivocally, the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”

Weak effort. All the evidence comes from the NT and Paul's letters. No chain of custody, no eyewitnesses, only hearsay. None of what he wrote about would be admissible in court and he knows it.

Hearsay is an out-of-court statement offered in court to prove the truth of the matter asserted in that statement, making it generally inadmissible as evidence because it is considered unreliable and cannot be cross-examined. The rule against hearsay is a fundamental principle in many legal systems, designed to ensure that evidence presented in court is based on firsthand knowledge and can be tested for truthfulness, although numerous exceptions exist where such statements are deemed reliable or offered for a non-hearsay purpose.

We know the NT is NOT a reliable historical document since, as you noted, the authors can take license with the facts to make theological points.

 

[alang1216]

Other than for us to exist I don't know what God expects.

You said I was without excuse. Is that your judgement or God's or Paul's?

 

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All the evidence comes from the NT and Paul's letters.

Babylonian Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin 43a.

This is the most significant text in the Talmud dealing with the crucifixion of Yeshua outside of the Gospels. It is based on the Mishnah of Sanhedrin. The Mishnah was collected by Rabbi Judah the Nasi, the President, who lived in Zippori, the Jewish capital city in the Galilee, located about three miles from Nazareth. Rabbi Judah died in the year 210 CE. The Mishnah was finished just before the year 210 CE.

MISHNAH.

“IF THEN THEY FIND HIM INNOCENT, THEY DISCHARGE HIM; BUT IF NOT, HE GOES FORTH TO BE STONED, AND A HERALD PRECEDES HIM [CRYING]: SO, AND SO, THE SON OF SO AND SO, IS GOING FORTH TO BE STONED BECAUSE HE COMMITTED SUCH AND SUCH AN OFFENSE, AND SO AND SO ARE HIS WITNESSES. WHOEVER KNOWS ANYTHING IN HIS FAVOR, LET HIM COME AND STATE IT.”

GEMARA - Talmud

“Abaye said; It must also be announced: On such and such a day, at such and such an hour, and in such and such a place [the crime was committed], in case there are some who know [to the contrary], so that they can come forward and prove the witnesses Zomemim. AND A HERALD PRECEDES HIM. This implies, only immediately before [the execution], but not previous thereto. [In contradiction to this] it was taught: On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu the Nazarene (Deut. 18:9) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, ‘He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.’ But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! — ’Ulla retorted: Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith [enticer], concerning whom Scripture says, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him? With Yeshu, however, it was different, for he was connected with the government [or royalty, i.e., influential].”
Click to expand...

What does it mean that Yeshua was connected with royalty or with the government? To which royalty was he related? The only possibility is to go to the house of David. It was unfathomable to imagine that Yeshua was related to the house of Herod. From the very beginning, Yeshua was born according to prophetic predictions in Bethlehem. Yeshua visited Jerusalem several times during the three years of his ministry, but the story of the entrance on a donkey is associated only with Yeshua’s coming with his disciples for the last Passover feast before his crucifixion, also in fulfillment of prophecy. Yeshua’s burial in a rich man’s grave is also a fulfillment of prophecy.

Yeshua in the Talmud | Netivyah

Read this article by Joseph Shulam to learn about the mentions of Yeshua in Jewish literature, contradictions in talmudic accounts and much more.

netivyah.org

 

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All the evidence comes from the NT and Paul's letters.

In the Talmud, Yeshua is a healer well into the second century CE.

Examine the following:

The Jerusalem Talmud Tractate Aboda Zara 40b

“His grandson (the grandson of Jehoshua ben Levi) had swallowed something. A man came and whispered to him (a spell) in the name of Jesus’ son of Pandera, and he got well. When he went out, he (Jehoshua’ ben Levi) asked him: What did you say over him? He answered according to the word of somebody. He said: What had been his fate had he died and not heard this word? And it happened to him, “as it were an error which the ruler made.” (Eccles. 10:5).”

The disciple of Yeshua answered with an intelligent answer. Like a typical Rabbinical Jew with any question asked: “What had been his fate, had he died and not heard this word?” Yeshua’s disciple is smart because he answers with a question: What would have been had I not said these words in the name of Yeshua?

This text is about an event from the 2nd century CE. A true story of the healing of a grandson of one of the great Rabbis of the Talmud. The boy is ill, and a disciple of Yeshua comes and prays for the child, and the child is healed.

This story shows that the Talmudic Rabbi who has several interludes with Yeshua, Rabbi Jehoshua ben Levi, had received the disciple of Yeshua to come and pray in Yeshua’s name for his grandson, who was healed. This is a great witness to the continuation of the power of Yeshua’s name for healing even into the second century CE. This is not the only story in the Talmud that witnesses the power of the name of Yeshua in healing the sick.

 

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No chain of custody, no eyewitnesses, only hearsay. None of what he wrote about would be admissible in court and he knows it.

1. Eyewitness Testimonies: The Foundation of Any Case

In legal trials, multiple eyewitness accounts strengthen a case. When Luckhoo examined the resurrection, he found that Jesus appeared to:

Peter and the twelve disciples

Over 500 people at once (many still alive at the time of writing, meaning their testimony could be verified)

James, Jesus’ skeptical brother

Paul, a former persecutor of Christians

(See 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 for these eyewitness claims.)

Why does this matter? People don’t risk torture and execution for something they know is a lie. Yet, Jesus’ followers—who had been scared and in hiding—suddenly became bold preachers willing to die rather than deny seeing Him alive.

2. The Empty Tomb: A Fact No One Disputed

Even Jesus’ enemies never denied the tomb was empty—they just tried to explain it away.

• Jewish leaders claimed the disciples stole the body (Matthew 28:11-15).

• Romans had every reason to stop Christianity but never produced a body.

• If the body were still in the tomb, Christianity would have collapsed immediately in Jerusalem.

Legal Principle: When both hostile and friendly sources agree on a fact (the tomb was empty), it strengthens its credibility.

3. The First Witnesses Were Women—A Mark of Authenticity

In first-century Jewish and Roman culture, women’s testimonies were not considered reliable.

• Yet, all four Gospels report that women (Mary Magdalene and others) were the first to see the empty tomb and the risen Jesus (Mark 16:1-8, John 20:11-18).

• If this story were made up, it would have been smarter to list men as the first witnesses for credibility.

Legal Principle: If a testimony includes culturally inconvenient details but is still reported, it suggests authenticity rather than fabrication.

4. Enemies of Jesus Became His Followers

Two of the biggest skeptics and enemies of Christianity became believers after seeing Jesus alive:

• James (Jesus’ brother) – Did not believe in Jesus during His ministry (John 7:5) but became the leader of the Jerusalem church and was later killed for his faith.

• Paul (formerly Saul) – A fierce persecutor of Christians, but after encountering Jesus, he became Christianity’s greatest missionary and endured intense persecution (2 Corinthians 11:23-28).

What could cause such a dramatic transformation? Seeing the risen Jesus.

5. The Explosion of Christianity Against All Odds

• Christianity spread rapidly in the very city where Jesus was crucified—a place where people could have easily disproven it.

• The Romans and Jewish leaders tried to crush it, yet it thrived.

• It grew without military power, wealth, or political influence—only through the testimony of ordinary people.

If the resurrection were a lie, why didn’t it collapse under persecution?

Luckhoo’s Final Verdict

After examining all this evidence, Sir Lionel Luckhoo became a Christian and dedicated his life to sharing the message of Jesus. His conclusion:

“The evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”

 

[alang1216]

The Mishnah was collected by Rabbi Judah the Nasi, the President, who lived in Zippori, the Jewish capital city in the Galilee, located about three miles from Nazareth. Rabbi Judah died in the year 210 CE. The Mishnah was finished just before the year 210 CE.

How does Rabbi Judah know these things about Jesus since he certainly never met him?

 

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You said I was without excuse. Is that your judgement or God's or Paul's?

It is reality.

 

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How does Rabbi Judah know these things about Jesus since he certainly never met him?

Joseph Shulam explains:

"I would have difficulty believing in the truthfulness of the story of Yeshua (Jesus) if He were not mentioned anywhere in Jewish literature. What if a fantastic story like the story of Yeshua (from his birth to his resurrection from the dead to his ascension to heaven) were not mentioned anywhere else except in the texts of what is commonly called “The New Testament”? A person like Yeshua was a stone of contention, an Archimedes point, a pivotal point of human history, and a controversial personality. He was King of the Jews, as it was written on a plaque on top of the cross of His crucifixion.

We are fortunate that we have a vast store of literature from the Pharisees of Yeshua’s day. They collected and preserved the discussions and controversies of the time. Most Christians are not educated in the literature of the Pharisees. This literature is divided into three different forms. The first is the Mishnah, a collection of Rabbinical sources and quotations from Rabbis who lived in the 2nd century BC until the middle of the 2nd century CE. The second is the Jerusalem Talmud, a collection of similar discussions from the 5th century CE. The third is the Babylonian Talmud, which was finished in the 6th century CE and dealt with material similar to that of the Jerusalem Talmud.

We are fortunate that Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian of the first century, mentions Yeshua in his books. We are also fortunate that we have the Midrashic literature, a collection of various homiletic material and quasi-commentaries of the Torah. These commentaries include those of Rabbis from before the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, through to medieval Rabbinical commentators. Understand that most of the material that was written in this Rabbinical literature was written against Yeshua and His disciples. However, what was written against is also a witness to what was real and important for the Jews in the diaspora, who were opponents of Yeshua and his disciples. Often, these Rabbis referred to Yeshua in order to oppose Him, but by opposing Him, they affirmed Him. What was intended to negate Yeshua turns out to affirm the positive. The Jewish rabbinical opponents of Jesus and his disciples did not write about Him for several centuries after His death, burial, and resurrection. But, when they began to discuss Yeshua, Rabbis attributed stories to Him that affirm the historical Yeshua. The story's origins date back to the 2nd century B.C. The records of this material written against Yeshua by the Pharisaic Rabbis are preserved in the rabbinical materials in the Mishnah, Midrashic Literature, and in both the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud.

In this article, I will attempt to capture the most interesting stories about Jesus in Rabbinical literature and try to make lemonade from the rotten lemons grown in rabbinical gardens in the dark valleys of religious prejudice, hate, and ignorance. What was meant for evil will turn out to be for good!"

Yeshua in the Talmud | Netivyah

 

[alang1216]

In the Talmud, Yeshua is a healer well into the second century CE.

Examine the following:

The Jerusalem Talmud Tractate Aboda Zara 40b


The disciple of Yeshua answered with an intelligent answer. Like a typical Rabbinical Jew with any question asked: “What had been his fate, had he died and not heard this word?” Yeshua’s disciple is smart because he answers with a question: What would have been had I not said these words in the name of Yeshua?

This text is about an event from the 2nd century CE. A true story of the healing of a grandson of one of the great Rabbis of the Talmud. The boy is ill, and a disciple of Yeshua comes and prays for the child, and the child is healed.

This story shows that the Talmudic Rabbi who has several interludes with Yeshua, Rabbi Jehoshua ben Levi, had received the disciple of Yeshua to come and pray in Yeshua’s name for his grandson, who was healed. This is a great witness to the continuation of the power of Yeshua’s name for healing even into the second century CE. This is not the only story in the Talmud that witnesses the power of the name of Yeshua in healing the sick.

When and why did the power of Yeshua’s name for healing cease or is it still as powerful today?

 

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When and why did the power of Yeshua’s name for healing cease or is it still as powerful today?

No idea. I can only speculate. I can only testify to his power in my life.

 

[ding]

All the evidence comes from the NT and Paul's letters.

Another story about Rabbi Jehoshua ben Levi.

“R. Joshua b. Levi met Elijah standing by the entrance of R. Simeon b. Yohai’s tomb. He asked him, ‘Have I a portion in the world to come?’ He replied, ‘if this Master desires it.’ R. Joshua b. Levi said, ‘I saw two, but heard the voice of a third.’ He then asked him, ‘When will the Messiah come?’ – 'Go and ask him himself’, was his reply. 'Where is he sitting?’ – ‘At the entrance (of the city).' – 'And by what sign may I recognize him?’ – ‘He is sitting among the poor lepers: all of them untie [them] all at once, and rebandage them together, whereas he unties and rebandages each separately, [before treating the next], thinking, should I be wanted, [it being time for my appearance as the Messiah] I must not be delayed [through having to bandage a number of sores].’ So, he went to him and greeted him, saying, ‘peace upon thee, Master and Teacher.’ ‘Peace upon thee, O son of Levi,’ he replied. ‘When wilt thou come Master?’ asked he, “To-day’, was his answer. On his returning to Elijah, the latter enquired, “What did he say to thee?’ – ‘peace Upon thee, O son of Levi,’ he answered, thereupon he [Elijah] observed, ‘He thereby assured thee and thy father of [a portion in] the world to come.’ ‘He spoke falsely to me,’ he rejoined, ‘stating that he would come to-day, but has not.’ He [Elijah] answered him, ‘This is what he said to thee, To-day, if ye will hear his voice.’"

 

[alang1216]

1. Eyewitness Testimonies: The Foundation of Any Case

Except for Paul, none of the 'witnesses' actually wrote about seeing Jesus. Am I wrong?

2. The Empty Tomb: A Fact No One Disputed

A fact no one confirmed except for the authors of the NT. Hardly unbiased or concerned with historical accuracy.

• Romans had every reason to stop Christianity but never produced a body.

Romans had no reason to stop Christianity since it didn't exist, it was still an offshoot of Judaism.

3. The First Witnesses Were Women—A Mark of Authenticity

Valid

4. Enemies of Jesus Became His Followers

Weak

5. The Explosion of Christianity Against All Odds

Christianity exploded on the pagan world (not the Jewish one) for many reasons not just the resurrection.

• Christians told stories of miracles that showed their god was powerful.
• Christians offered a path to immortality.
• Judaism was a respected ancient religion. Jews were never big on converting pagans to Judaism but Christians were, at least to their version of Judaism.
• Christians offered pagans the chance to join a community where they shared resources and helped each other. For that reason Christians lived better and longer than other pagans.
• Pagans were ignorant of Judaism so the Christian stories of how Jesus fulfilled Jewish prophesy was powerful (Jews knew better).

Luckhoo’s Final Verdict

After examining all this evidence, Sir Lionel Luckhoo became a Christian and dedicated his life to sharing the message of Jesus. His conclusion:

“The evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”

I believe you have the story backwards. Luckhoo converted and then wrote his apologies.

 

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Except for Paul, none of the 'witnesses' actually wrote about seeing Jesus. Am I wrong?


A fact no one confirmed except for the authors of the NT. Hardly unbiased or concerned with historical accuracy.


Romans had no reason to stop Christianity since it didn't exist, it was still an offshoot of Judaism.


Valid

Weak

Christianity exploded on the pagan world (not the Jewish one) for many reasons not just the resurrection.

• Christians told stories of miracles that showed their god was powerful.
• Christians offered a path to immortality.
• Judaism was a respected ancient religion. Jews were never big on converting pagans to Judaism but Christians were, at least to their version of Judaism.
• Christians offered pagans the chance to join a community where they shared resources and helped each other. For that reason Christians lived better and longer than other pagans.
• Pagans were ignorant of Judaism so the Christian stories of how Jesus fulfilled Jewish prophesy was powerful (Jews knew better).

I believe you have the story backwards. Luckhoo converted and then wrote his apologies.

Listen to how you are describing a conspiracy.

 

[alang1216]

Listen to how you are describing a conspiracy.

A 'conspiracy' that involved thousands of people from thousands of places over thousands of years? That would have been really impressive.

 

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A 'conspiracy' that involved thousands of people from thousands of places over thousands of years? That would have been really impressive.

I agree. But that's your only option unless you believe Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[alang1216]

I agree. But that's your only option unless you believe Jesus rose from the dead.

Not my only option. Trump started the 'stolen election' theme but his supporters took it and ran with it. They weren't conspiring with Trump, they believed what he said and they were operating on their own. Turns out they were wrong. See any parallels?

 

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Paul may have been a true believer or he may have been an opportunist, not unlike some televangelists in our time.

Paul was a credible witness. He gained nothing financially and suffered greatly for his beliefs.

 

[ding]

Paul's biography was written by Paul's followers so it is impossible to separate fact from legend. Note that I only said it was possible that Paul was a fraud, not that I believed he was. We can't know for sure.

Bart Ehrman believes Paul wrote 1 Corinthians. He considers 1 Corinthians one of the "core four"letters—along with Romans, Galatians, and 2 Corinthians—that can be established as genuinely Pauline through stylometric analysis. Ehrman argues that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, though he suggests some later interpolations or insertions were made, such as 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

Why Ehrman Accepts 1 Corinthians as Genuine

• Stylometric Analysis:
  Ehrman notes that 1 Corinthians, along with Romans, Galatians, and 2 Corinthians, shares a consistent writing style, vocabulary, and theological outlook that aligns with the historical understanding of Paul.
  
  
• Historical Context:
  The letter provides detailed insights into the challenges and practices of the Corinthian church during Paul's time, which fits with a real historical situation addressed by Paul himself.
  

What part of his biography do you believe is in error?

 

[ding]

Not my only option. Trump started the 'stolen election' theme but his supporters took it and ran with it. They weren't conspiring with Trump, they believed what he said and they were operating on their own. Turns out they were wrong. See any parallels?

You can’t disprove the NT through substitution.