Calling Out Alang1216: The God of Abraham is a myth

[ding]

Math exists outside of our space and time but does not meet the definition of supernatural. The supernatural has to interact with the natural world or it is just an unfalsifiable theory.


Again, not a falsifiable theory.

You are literally proving my point that the only thing that can exist outside of space and time (i.e. our nature) is the incorporeal. That no THING can exist outside of space and time without creating space time. The God of Abraham is no thing. The God of Abraham is love, logic, truth and every other extant attribute of reality that exists. I'm not saying the God of Abraham has those traits. I am saying the God of Abraham IS those traits.

But we digress... your objective is to prove the God of Abraham is a myth. People don't believe and live their lives for 6,000 years based upon a myth. Mythologies die out and never last anywhere near 6,000 years.

 

[alang1216]

I think a lot of them are, yes. That's not the point of the account though. So the question you have to ask yourself is why were they embellished and what was the point of the account.

Theology and politics. The account was first written down in Babylon by Jews living in a foreign land. I think they knew they would be allowed to return and, as they were descended from the Jewish elite, expected to take power on their return. What better way to establish their right than to embellish ancient oral histories.

Because the evidence shows it did not occur in the numbers, it's not clear if they were forced slaves or indentured servants, but it is likely that something did happen. That there were a group of Jews that were at least indentured servants, that did leave in mass and did establish their identity that they were chosen by the God of Abraham to raise standards and follow his laws. This was their belief and it is undeniable that they did believe that. That is not a myth. That is history.

Outside of the Bible, there is no evidence of Jews leaving Egypt and settling in Palestine. In fact the archeological evidence show no population or religion changes in Palestine during this period.

And as a result they did have a special relationship with the God of Abraham. And by all accounts they did receive blessings and were prosperous disproportionate to their tiny numbers. It wasn't the myth that made them prosperous, it was their worship of the God of Abraham that made them prosperous.

That is theology not fact.

 

[alang1216]

No. They believed that they were chosen by the God of Abraham to raise standards and follow laws. They believed they had a covenant with the God of Abraham which was conditional to the obedience of God's laws and would result in blessings and a special relationship with God. Which is what history shows.

OK, they were Henotheists originally and that evolved into monotheism.

What success? Really? It's amazing that you say that given that historians see the continued existence and disproportionate success of the Jews as inexplicable. That such a tiny group could have such an impact of all of history.

They were always a tiny group with a tiny impact. It was Christianity that had the impact, not Judiasm.

If you want to keep arguing this point, I'll be bringing up what Toynbee, Blaise Pascal and Mark Twain said about them as well as a long list of their achievements. I'd like to say I am surprised by your ignorance on this, but it is in keeping with your bias.

To be a good Jewish man you must be educated and literate. In many places, Jews could do things that others could not, like lending money, so many Jews were both educated and wealthy.

 

[alang1216]

You are literally proving my point that the only thing that can exist outside of space and time (i.e. our nature) is the incorporeal. That no THING can exist outside of space and time without creating space time. The God of Abraham is no thing. The God of Abraham is love, logic, truth and every other extant attribute of reality that exists. I'm not saying the God of Abraham has those traits. I am saying the God of Abraham IS those traits.

Theology not evidence.

But we digress... your objective is to prove the God of Abraham is a myth. People don't believe and live their lives for 6,000 years based upon a myth. Mythologies die out and never last anywhere near 6,000 years.

Think about how Judaism has changed over the millennia (not 6,000, more like 3,000 years). Henotheists evolved into monotheists, the God of the people became the God of the person, the temple became synagogues, priests became rabbis. Judaism today would not be recognized by the original Hebrews.

 

[ding]

Theology and politics. The account was first written down in Babylon by Jews living in a foreign land. I think they knew they would be allowed to return and, as they were descended from the Jewish elite, expected to take power on their return. What better way to establish their right than to embellish ancient oral histories.


Outside of the Bible, there is no evidence of Jews leaving Egypt and settling in Palestine. In fact the archeological evidence show no population or religion changes in Palestine during this period.


That is theology not fact.

Not theology or politics. These accounts were how they passed down information. You are missing the point of the accounts because of embellishment.

The Jews really did establish monotheistic beliefs which were predicated on the belief that divine providence is predicated on good behaviors.

They really did believe that they were chosen to lead moral lives and that good things would happen because of it.

 

[ding]

OK, they were Henotheists originally and that evolved into monotheism.


They were always a tiny group with a tiny impact. It was Christianity that had the impact, not Judiasm.


To be a good Jewish man you must be educated and literate. In many places, Jews could do things that others could not, like lending money, so many Jews were both educated and wealthy.

No. Prior to Abraham they were polytheists. And that continued for thousands of years after Abraham. The transition from polytheism to monotheism took thousands of years. Exodus was the culmination of that transition.

 

[ding]

Theology not evidence.


Think about how Judaism has changed over the millennia (not 6,000, more like 3,000 years). Henotheists evolved into monotheists, the God of the people became the God of the person, the temple became synagogues, priests became rabbis. Judaism today would not be recognized by the original Hebrews.

Again… not theology. A core belief in divine providence and that they were chosen to lead moral lives.

There is nothing mythical about these beliefs. These beliefs were the foundation of their continued success.

 

[alang1216]

Welcome back, I was afraid you got heat stroke on the golf course or got washed out to sea.

Not theology or politics. These accounts were how they passed down information. You are missing the point of the accounts because of embellishment.

You are missing the point as to why THESE accounts were passed down and preserved.

The Jews really did establish monotheistic beliefs which were predicated on the belief that divine providence is predicated on good behaviors.

Not really true. Many homes in Palestine had alters to the God of the Jews but also contained alters to other gods. There are recurring stories where the Jewish Temple had to be cleansed of other gods.

Divine providence was predicated on the good behavior of Israel, not individuals.

They really did believe that they were chosen to lead moral lives and that good things would happen because of it.

With that I agree

 

[alang1216]

No. Prior to Abraham they were polytheists. And that continued for thousands of years after Abraham. The transition from polytheism to monotheism took thousands of years. Exodus was the culmination of that transition.

They were Henotheists for centuries after Exodus.

 

[alang1216]

Again… not theology. A core belief in divine providence and that they were chosen to lead moral lives.

Sounds like theology to me.

There is nothing mythical about these beliefs. These beliefs were the foundation of their continued success.

Their 'success' is debatable but beliefs = theology.

 

[ding]

Welcome back, I was afraid you got heat stroke on the golf course or got washed out to sea.


You are missing the point as to why THESE accounts were passed down and preserved.


Not really true. Many homes in Palestine had alters to the God of the Jews but also contained alters to other gods. There are recurring stories where the Jewish Temple had to be cleansed of other gods.

Divine providence was predicated on the good behavior of Israel, not individuals.


With that I agree

Nope. I was dealing with having no kitchen or utility room and having the grandkids for a couple of weeks. Not much room or time to post.

I know full well why these accounts were passed down, but please do tell me why you think they were. Make sure to distinguish between pre and post exodus.

Again… the transition from polytheism to monotheism occurred over thousands of years and even persisted after the exodus. So not myths. History. You can’t see it because you get hung up on embellishments and your flawed concept of the word of god.

Incorrect. Divine providence applies at every level but the vast majority is at the individual level.

If you agree that they believed that leading moral lives leads to success and prosperity, you just shot a hole in your argument that it’s all a myth.

 

[ding]

They were Henotheists for centuries after Exodus.

Which are effectively monotheists as henotheists believe in a supreme being who is the creator God. Hindus - who are still henotheists to this day - argue they were the first monotheists.

But setting that aside, the argument that Jews were henotheists is weak. They are confusing the transition from polytheism to monotheism for henotheism.

And none of this is making an argument that the God of Abraham is a myth.

 

[ding]

Sounds like theology to me.


Their 'success' is debatable but beliefs = theology.

Their success is not debatable. Not even close. It’s vastly disproportionate to their tiny numbers.

Theology is the study of God. How is believing successful behaviors naturally lead to success the study of God? You can be an atheist and believe that successful behaviors naturally lead to success and failed behaviors naturally lead to failure. All that is required to believe that is logic and experience. Besides even if you call it theology it’s still not mythical.

 

[alang1216]

Nope. I was dealing with having no kitchen or utility room

and having the grandkids for a couple of weeks.

I know full well why these accounts were passed down, but please do tell me why you think they were. Make sure to distinguish between pre and post exodus.

Myths have always been enjoyed, even to day. They all contain action, love, and lessons. We have Superman they had Samson.

Not sure the why the need to distinguish between pre and post exodus since all the stories were written post exodus. The more fundamental question is how much were of the stories were pure fantasy, slightly embellished, somewhat historically accurate, taken from older cultures as their own.

Again… the transition from polytheism to monotheism occurred over thousands of years and even persisted after the exodus. So not myths. History. You can’t see it because you get hung up on embellishments and your flawed concept of the word of god.

Henotheism implies a primary devotion to one god without denying the existence of others. Judaism began when the Hebrews made their covenant with Yahweh, making them henotheism. I'm not sure when the transition from henotheism to monotheism occurred but it could even have been after Jesus' time.

Incorrect. Divine providence applies at every level but the vast majority is at the individual level.

In your scripture maybe, I'm talking about the OT.

If you agree that they believed that leading moral lives leads to success and prosperity, you just shot a hole in your argument that it’s all a myth.

How so? Both Hebrews and pagans believed making sacrifices to the gods lead to success and prosperity. Were they both right?

 

[ding]

How so? Both Hebrews and pagans believed making sacrifices to the gods lead to success and prosperity. Were they both right?

Let’s hear your pagan success stories because making animal sacrifices doesn’t lead to success. Being virtuous does. And part of being virtuous requires sacrifices to be made for others.

 

[alang1216]

Which are effectively monotheists as henotheists believe in a supreme being who is the creator God. Hindus - who are still henotheists to this day - argue they were the first monotheists.

Zeus was the supreme god but there were many others. Jews made their covenant with one of the very many gods.

But setting that aside, the argument that Jews were henotheists is weak. They are confusing the transition from polytheism to monotheism for henotheism.

• Jewish leaders were berated by their prophets for putting other idols in the Temple
• Homes of Jews also contained shrines to other gods.
• The first commandment, as found in Exodus 20:3, is "You shall have no other gods before me", not that there were no other gods.
  
  TJE asked Kimelman, a leading scholar on the Jewish liturgy, to provide a translation and line-by-line analysis of the first passage, which is the best known.
  
  Hear (Shema) Israel! the Lord is our God, the Lord is one
  
  Though this opening verse is now taken as the ultimate affirmation of monotheism, it seems likely that the ancient Israelites originally saw it as a declaration of monolatry.

And none of this is making an argument that the God of Abraham is a myth.

Think about how Judaism has changed over the millennia (not 6,000, more like 3,000 years). Henotheists evolved into monotheists, the God of the people became the God of the person, the temple became synagogues, priests became rabbis. Judaism today would not be recognized by the original Hebrews. Jesus essentially reinvented our understanding of the God of Abraham. It seems to me, that if the people who first worshipped him had no idea who or what he was, maybe they were making it up as they went along.

 

[ding]

In your scripture maybe, I'm talking about the OT.

Incorrect. Judaism teaches a personal relationship with God. While Judaism emphasizes God's transcendence and the importance of observing God's commandments, it also affirms that individuals can and should have a direct, personal connection with the divine. Prayers are offered directly to God. Individuals are expected to cultivate their own relationship with God. So the God of Abraham is not a myth.

Jewish teachings describe God as a loving Father, emphasizing a personal and familial connection. Jews believe that God is actively involved in the world and in the lives of individuals, not just a distant, uninvolved creator. So the God of Abraham is not a myth.

 

[ding]

Myths have always been enjoyed, even to day. They all contain action, love, and lessons. We have Superman they had Samson.

But these accounts aren’t myths. These were oral accounts of historical events and other important knowledge that were told in an allegorical fashion to make them more memorable so they would be easier to pass down because that’s how knowledge was passed down.

You are so hung up on the embellishments that you miss the point of the accounts.

 

[alang1216]

Their success is not debatable. Not even close. It’s vastly disproportionate to their tiny numbers.

How do you judge their success?

Theology is the study of God.

AI Overview

Theology is the systematic study of God, religious faith, and religious beliefs. It encompasses the study of religious texts, traditions, and practices, aiming to understand the nature of the divine and its relationship to humanity.

How is believing successful behaviors naturally lead to success the study of God? You can be an atheist and believe that successful behaviors naturally lead to success and failed behaviors naturally lead to failure. All that is required to believe that is logic and experience. Besides even if you call it theology it’s still not mythical.

If you believe your success will come from God, it is theology, if you believe it comes from society, it is not theology.

 

[ding]

Not sure the why the need to distinguish between pre and post exodus since all the stories were written post exodus. The more fundamental question is how much were of the stories were pure fantasy, slightly embellished, somewhat historically accurate, taken from older cultures as their own.

Because it wasn’t until after the exodus that the accounts in Genesis became known as the word of God.

For instance the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of a great migration from Mesopotamia. It wasn’t an act of God.

Your interpretations of these accounts is even worse than the interpretations of some evangelicals.