Bush Strategy Has Aided Terrorism

[rayboyusmc]

If we had finished the job in Afghanistan, the Taliban there would be severely weakened by now and Ossamer would probably be dead.

Instead Bush's attack on Iraq, took a country, where Al Quaeda had no real influence, and created a breeding and recruting grounds for them Now they are able to export their terrorism to neighboring countries.

When will the dikheads in charge realize that we will defeat terrorism with good intelligence and police work, not some fukking grandstanding on a conventional battlefield? But their friends will get millions/billions.
MTABIH

WASHINGTON - The director of national intelligence said Tuesday he is concerned that al-Qaida in Iraq is shifting its focus to attacks elsewhere in the region.

"They may deploy resources to mount attacks outside the country." Mike McConnell told a Senate hearing, although he also said that fewer than 100 terrorists have moved to establish cells in other countries.

McConnell also told the Senate Intelligence Committee that the Taliban, once thought to be routed from Afghanistan, has expanded its operations into previously peaceful areas of the west and around the capital of Kabul, despite the death or capture of three top commanders in the last year.

http://tinyurl.com/ywtjk6

 

[midcan5]

Conservative American MSM doesn't know what do with tough topics. Times have sure changed.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/05/6848/

 

[shepherdboy]

Rayboyusmc-"Good police work"? What ever gave you the idea this was a job for law enforcement officials?

 

[Diuretic]

Rayboyusmc-"Good police work"? What ever gave you the idea this was a job for law enforcement officials?

Have a look at Germany, they have used good police work. Same for the Brits and there are probably more - eg in Spain. Think about it for a minute. The attacks on 9/11 were, when broken down, a series of criminal acts. It would have been far smarter to respond with a criminal investigation aimed at identifying the offenders and then building evidence against them so that they could be tried in competent courts in the jurisdiction where the crimes took place (the principal offenders all died but the conspirators could face trial).

That's why this was a job for law enforcement officials.

 

[eots]

frontline: the man who knew | PBSFBI Special Agent John O'Neill was the FBI's leading expert on Al Qaeda. But to people at FBI headquarters he was too much of a maverick and they stopped ...


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/john/timeline.html


From the spring through summer of 2001, the FBI receives a number of indications that there is a serious threat of another terrorist attack. O'Neill focuses on the USS Cole investigation on the theory that it will lead to a better understanding of Al Qaeda and the intelligence necessary to thwart another attack.


June 2001
FBI Pulls Out of Yemen Due to Security Threat

O'Neill and Barry Mawn agree their agents in Yemen could not be protected. "We were operating with three SWAT personnel as support as far as security goes, and an open hotel just wasn't going to work. We couldn't provide protection," says former FBI agent Clint Guenther.


Summer 2001
Intelligence Indicates Attack on U.S. Interests Likely

By now, O'Neill is more marginalized than ever at the FBI because of his deteriorating relationship with headquarters. He discusses the threats with his friend Chris Isham, who tells FRONTLINE: "He knew that there was a lot of noise out there and that there were a lot of warnings, a lot of red flags, and that it was a similar level that they were hearing before the millennium, which was an indication that there was something going on. Yet, he felt that he was frozen out, that he was not in a capacity to really do anything about it anymore because of his relationship with the FBI. So it was a source of real anguish for him."


June 21, 2001
Louis Freeh Resigns as FBI Director; Thomas Pickard Appointed Interim Director



July 2001
O'Neill Decides to Retire from FBI

He hears about a job opening as head of security at the World Trade Center. It would mean a significant salary increase, but also it would mean leaving the FBI. By this point, however, O'Neill realizes his chances for a promotion were severely hurt by the briefcase incident. In addition to career problems, entertaining foreign visitors and O'Neill's lifestyle had left him in debt. The job at the World Trade Center would give him a chance to pay off that debt.


July 10, 2001
Speech to Spanish Police Foundation

While vacationing in Spain with Valerie James and her son, O'Neill gives a speech to Spanish police on interagency cooperation. He asks the audience, "How much more successful could we all be if we really knew what our agencies really knew?"


July 10, 2001
Phoenix FBI Office Recommends Agency-Wide Investigation of Flight Schools

The memo makes its way to FBI headquarters but it is not passed on to O'Neill or Mawn in the New York office -- nor is the struggle the following month of the Minnesota FBI office to investigate the alleged 20th hijacker, Zacarias Moussaoui.


Aug. 19, 2001
The New York Times Reports on O'Neill's Briefcase Incident and Pending Retirement

The Times story quotes an anonymous source, whom O'Neill believes is Tom Pickard. O'Neill confronts Pickard who denies that he was the source of the leak.


Aug. 22, 2001
Last Day at the FBI

In his final hours on the job, O'Neill signs an authorization for the FBI to return to Yemen. Calling Fran Townsend at the Justice Department from his desk, O'Neill explains, "I wasn't leaving here until I did it, because I promised that we would send them back. When I pulled them out, I had to. But I was determined to be the one who signed the piece of paper to send them back."

O'Neill also e-mails Lou Gunn, whose son had died in the Cole attack, to tell him that he was retiring, but that the FBI was returning to Yemen.


Late August 2001
New Job: The World Trade Center

According to Chris Isham, O'Neill recognized the threat still posed to the World Trade Center. "When he had first gotten the job at the World Trade Center, he told me, 'I've got this great job. I'm head of security at the World Trade Center.' And I joked with him and said, 'Well, that will be an easy job. They're not going to bomb that place again.' And he said, 'Well actually -- he immediately came back and he said, 'actually they've always wanted to finish that job. I think they're going to try again."


Sept. 10, 2001
Intimations

On the eve of Sept. 11, O'Neill is with friends on the town. According to Jerry Hauer, O'Neill warns him that night: "We're due for something big." O'Neill explains, "I don't like the way things are lining up in Afghanistan." Still, O'Neill tells friends that he is happy about his new job. "[It] doesn't get better than this," he says.


Sept. 11, 2001
Two Hijacked Planes Hit World Trade Center Towers

O'Neill is in his 34th floor office in the North Tower at 8:46 a.m. when American Airlines Flight 11 crashes into it. Among others, O'Neill calls Valerie James once he is outside the building. He asks her what hit the building and tells her, "Val, it's horrible. There are body parts everywhere." A few seconds later he tells her, "Okay, I'll call you in a little bit." O'Neill also sends a text message to Fran Townsend to report that he is okay.

In the minutes after the attack, O'Neill makes his way to the command center that had been set up. There he sees FBI agent Wesley Wong. Wong would tell Esquire magazine later, "He was in FBI mode. Then he turned and kind of looked at me and went toward the interior of the complex. From the time John walked away to the time the building collapsed was certainly not more than a half hour or 20 minutes." Wong is the last person to see him alive.


Sept. 28, 2001
Memorial Service for O'Neill

A week after his body is found in the debris of the South Tower, about a thousand mourners attend John O'Neill's service in Atlantic City. Barry Mawn, one of the speakers, tells the gathering that O'Neill didn't resign from the FBI because of the briefcase incident. Mawn says that he felt it was important to clear up some of the things people were saying about O'Neill's departure. "He didn't run from a fight. He didn't retire because this was a serious matter. He retired because circumstances were right and it was a good job," Mawn tells FRONTLINE.

Following the service, John O'Neill is buried in the churchyard of St. Nicholas of Tolentine Church, the church where he once served as an altar boy.

 

[Taomon]

If we had finished the job in Afghanistan, the Taliban there would be severely weakened by now and Ossamer would probably be dead.

Instead Bush's attack on Iraq, took a country, where Al Quaeda had no real influence, and created a breeding and recruting grounds for them Now they are able to export their terrorism to neighboring countries.

When will the dikheads in charge realize that we will defeat terrorism with good intelligence and police work, not some fukking grandstanding on a conventional battlefield? But their friends will get millions/billions.
MTABIH





http://tinyurl.com/ywtjk6

Actually, had we secured the borders and sent in coalition troops instead of carpet bombing, the Taliban would be dead or surrendered, al Qaeda would be dead and public enemy number one would be dead.

But let's think about this, if Osama bin Laden were dead, would Bush still be able to tout terrorism as a reason to invade and occupy other countries?

 

[rayboyusmc]

Rayboyusmc-"Good police work"? What ever gave you the idea this was a job for law enforcement officials?

Police = Local & state Police, FBI, CIA, etc, here and similar organizations in other countries. Look at the plots that have been uncovered and stopped. It was done by police/intelligence work, not battlefield operations.

If you were able to soundly defeat their capability on the battlefield they will simply move underground until they are strong enought to re-emerge with their acts of terrorism.

You infiltrate them when they are in the underground status and kill them then, not on a frigging conventional battlefield.

 

[jillian]

Rayboyusmc-"Good police work"? What ever gave you the idea this was a job for law enforcement officials?

Terrorism IS a law enforcement issue. Same as the Israeli's treat it. For example, if an extremist psycho from this country went to France and set off a bomb or blew himself up in a marketplace, would you think the appropriate remedy would be bombing this country because it happened to be where the psycho came from? Or, would you think that intel and police work should be used to delve into where the guy came from, the groups he was affiliated with and ascertain what that group's future agenda is?

 

[Alpha1]

Terrorism IS a law enforcement issue. Same as the Israeli's treat it. For example, if an extremist psycho from this country went to France and set off a bomb or blew himself up in a marketplace, would you think the appropriate remedy would be bombing this country because it happened to be where the psycho came from? Or, would you think that intel and police work should be used to delve into where the guy came from, the groups he was affiliated with and ascertain what that group's future agenda is?

Terrorism IS a law enforcement issue.

Really ?

Clinton....Aug. 1998

Today I ordered our armed forces to strike at terrorist-related facilities in Afghanistan and Sudan because of the imminent threat they presented to our national security.
Our target was terror. Our mission was clear -- to strike at the network of radical groups affiliated with and funded by Osama bin Laden, perhaps the preeminent organizer and financier of international terrorism in the world today.

The groups associated with him come from diverse places, but share a hatred for democracy, a fanatical glorification of violence, and a horrible distortion of their religion to justify the murder of innocents.

They have made the United States their adversary precisely because of what we stand for and what we stand against.
----------------------------------------------------

So Clinton uses the military to fight terror...Uses US military to make attacks
inside other sovereign countries......
THAT MUST HAVE PISSED THE LIBERALS OFF..............................not...

Spent at least 2 years hunting OBL....FAILED MISERABLY

And LO AND BEHOLD.....what does Clinton say.....

"They have made the United States their adversary precisely because of what we stand for and what we stand against. "

What do we stand for....Freedom? Democracy?

Freekin' Bush says relatively the same thing and the left-wing morons still bring it up as a joke....and damn.....Clinton said it first......

 

[eots]

Terrorism IS a law enforcement issue.

Really ?

Clinton....Aug. 1998

Today I ordered our armed forces to strike at terrorist-related facilities in Afghanistan and Sudan because of the imminent threat they presented to our national security.
Our target was terror. Our mission was clear -- to strike at the network of radical groups affiliated with and funded by Osama bin Laden, perhaps the preeminent organizer and financier of international terrorism in the world today.

The groups associated with him come from diverse places, but share a hatred for democracy, a fanatical glorification of violence, and a horrible distortion of their religion to justify the murder of innocents.

They have made the United States their adversary precisely because of what we stand for and what we stand against.
----------------------------------------------------

So Clinton uses the military to fight terror...Uses US military to make attacks
inside other sovereign countries......
THAT MUST HAVE PISSED THE LIBERALS OFF..............................not...

Spent at least 2 years hunting OBL....FAILED MISERABLY

And LO AND BEHOLD.....what does Clinton say.....

"They have made the United States their adversary precisely because of what we stand for and what we stand against. "

What do we stand for....Freedom? Democracy?

Freekin' Bush says relatively the same thing and the left-wing morons still bring it up as a joke....and damn.....Clinton said it first......

its nothing to do with left or right only a fool believes there is any real difference between the bush/ Clinton sham.. it is how completely ineffective it was and has been.. but acting on john Oneil's recommendations and warnings would of almost certainly averted 911..but then maybe they didnt want that.. maybe they wanted a pretext for war

 

[jillian]

Terrorism IS a law enforcement issue.

Really ?

Clinton....Aug. 1998

Today I ordered our armed forces to strike at terrorist-related facilities in Afghanistan and Sudan because of the imminent threat they presented to our national security.
Our target was terror. Our mission was clear -- to strike at the network of radical groups affiliated with and funded by Osama bin Laden, perhaps the preeminent organizer and financier of international terrorism in the world today.

The groups associated with him come from diverse places, but share a hatred for democracy, a fanatical glorification of violence, and a horrible distortion of their religion to justify the murder of innocents.

They have made the United States their adversary precisely because of what we stand for and what we stand against.
----------------------------------------------------

So Clinton uses the military to fight terror...Uses US military to make attacks
inside other sovereign countries......
THAT MUST HAVE PISSED THE LIBERALS OFF..............................not...

Spent at least 2 years hunting OBL....FAILED MISERABLY

And LO AND BEHOLD.....what does Clinton say.....

"They have made the United States their adversary precisely because of what we stand for and what we stand against. "

What do we stand for....Freedom? Democracy?

Freekin' Bush says relatively the same thing and the left-wing morons still bring it up as a joke....and damn.....Clinton said it first......

And what he did was a targeted strike taking out terrorist installations. But he didn't stupidly occupy a country, did he?

Nope... he didn't. Nice try, though. But one gets to terrorist plots through police work; intel.... the kind that's not cherry-picked.

Oh yea, you also pay attention to PDB's and actually have people start fleshing out vague plots that your intelligence people tell you about.

 

[Alpha1]

And what he did was a targeted strike taking out terrorist installations. But he didn't stupidly occupy a country, did he?

Nope... he didn't. Nice try, though. But one gets to terrorist plots through police work; intel.... the kind that's not cherry-picked.

Oh yea, you also pay attention to PDB's and actually have people start fleshing out vague plots that your intelligence people tell you about.

So ...you've been shown you are wrong about fighting terrorism with police type methods...that is IF you defend the way Clinton reacted ....he used military action.....
Now what ... you want divert attention from that to occupying a country....another military method of fighting terrorism....?
that would mean its only certain military tactics that you object to....
Police don't use missles and jet fighters you realize.....and the kind of intell gathered in foreign countries is MILITARY intell....you know the CIA is not a police force, right....?

Yeah...Clinton should have sent troops into Afghan. in at least 1998....might have prevented numerous attacks by OBL....but he really didn't have the balls needed to fight terror....he thought the police would take care of things after the bombs when off....

 

[jillian]

So ...you've been shown you are wrong about fighting terrorism with police type methods...that is IF you defend the way Clinton reacted ....he used military action.....
Now what ... you want divert attention from that to occupying a country....another military method of fighting terrorism....?
that would mean its only certain military tactics that you object to....
Police don't use missles and jet fighters you realize.....and the kind of intell gathered in foreign countries is MILITARY intell....you know the CIA is not a police force, right....?

Yeah...Clinton should have sent troops into Afghan. in at least 1998....might have prevented numerous attacks by OBL....but he really didn't have the balls needed to fight terror....he thought the police would take care of things after the bombs when off....

In 1998? You mean when the idiots were investigating him up the yin yang and impeaching him? And everything he did the imbeciles on the right said was "wagging the dog"?

Yah, right. I'm sure Newt and the Contract On America boys would really have worked with him.

And, btw, all you showed was there are times when a targeted response is necesssary... also same as the Israelis.

 

[Alpha1]

In 1998? You mean when the idiots were investigating him up the yin yang and impeaching him? And everything he did the imbeciles on the right said was "wagging the dog"?

Yah, right. I'm sure Newt and the Contract On America boys would really have worked with him.

Even back into 1996 I believe.....spent 6 years trying and failed miserably.....
and I think foreign policy is the President's domain....not some Congressman...

 

[Alpha1]

The Democratic Underground claims 1995....so it might me 7 years of failure...

Starting in 1995, Clinton took actions against terrorism that were unprecedented in American history. He poured billions and billions of dollars into counterterrorism activities across the entire spectrum of the intelligence community. He poured billions more into the protection of critical infrastructure. He ordered massive federal stockpiling of antidotes and vaccines to prepare for a possible bioterror attack. He order a reorganization of the intelligence community itself, ramming through reforms and new procedures to address the demonstrable threat. Within the National Security Council, “threat meetings” were held three times a week to assess looming conspiracies. His National Security Advisor, Sandy Berger, prepared a voluminous dossier on al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, actively tracking them across the planet.

 

[Diuretic]

The Brits have resolved the issue of IRA terrorism, it was done with a mix of methods, some of those methods involved police work in Northern Ireland and elsewhere. The Army was used to assist peackeeping operations in the province and that was entirely appropriate.

 

[Alpha1]

The IRA was essentially domestic terrorism where common police methods could have a successful result...

If the IRA was a group based in Turkey or Japan....those police methods would be next to useless, (except as a defensive measure after the terrorists are in your country)...and the terrorists would have the component of being sheltered by a foreign government.....

Do you think that local city cops a equipped to deal with a political or religious fanatic bent on killing any American that happens to be within his range...
Local city cops can't deal adequately with the common street crime of teen gangs......

Terrorism born 2000 miles away must be dealt with 2000 miles away....
We must pro-active instead of only reactive....

 

[Diuretic]

The IRA was essentially domestic terrorism where common police methods could have a successful result...

If the IRA was a group based in Turkey or Japan....those police methods would be next to useless, (except as a defensive measure after the terrorists are in your country)...and the terrorists would have the component of being sheltered by a foreign government.....

Do you think that local city cops a equipped to deal with a political or religious fanatic bent on killing any American that happens to be within his range...
Local city cops can't deal adequately with the common street crime of teen gangs......

Terrorism born 2000 miles away must be dealt with 2000 miles away....
We must pro-active instead of only reactive....

The point was about police methods as opposed to military methods I think. An act of terrorism is best dealt with by police methods (or more to the point, criminal investigation methods), that was really the point wasn't it?

Take the attacks of 9/11. They were a series of criminal offences occurring in New York state, Pennsylvania and DC. The actual perpetrators, the principals, were killed (I'm assuming none got out alive). The conspirators and accessories before the fact were probably in various US jurisdictions and also other jurisdictions. Some have been investigated, charged, convicted, sentenced and imprisoned. Some haven't been caught yet (bin Laden and his closest associates). The one who have been charged, convicted, sentenced, imprisoned were dealt with by criminal investigation and the criminal justice system. Those that weren't (bin Laden and his closest associates) were attempted to be dealt with by the military option. It seems to me that that the criminal investigation option has been more successful and that it should be the preferred method.

 

[Alpha1]

The point was about police methods as opposed to military methods I think. An act of terrorism is best dealt with by police methods (or more to the point, criminal investigation methods), that was really the point wasn't it?

Take the attacks of 9/11. They were a series of criminal offences occurring in New York state, Pennsylvania and DC. The actual perpetrators, the principals, were killed (I'm assuming none got out alive).
Right...no direct perps to apprehend, try, or punish
The conspirators and accessories before the fact were probably in various US jurisdictions and also other jurisdictions.
Conspirators and accessories....ALL IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES
Some have been investigated, charged, convicted, sentenced and imprisoned. Some haven't been caught yet (bin Laden and his closest associates).
All captured overseas by military and CIA I believe, not by ordinary police
The one who have been charged, convicted, sentenced, imprisoned were dealt with by criminal investigation and the criminal justice system.
Again by military or CIA as far as I know
Those that weren't (bin Laden and his closest associates) were attempted to be dealt with by the military option.
I don't really know what you're talking about...ordinary polic had nothing to do with bringing ANY 9/11 conspirators to justice, NONE AT ALL, except Pedilla ....and his even being alive was fluke a best
It seems to me that that the criminal investigation option has been more successful and that it should be the preferred method.
You'll have to be more specific

Maybe you mean those involved in the first WTC bombing.....? That actually did involve domestic police to a small degree....
The hundreds of followers of those directly responsible for 9/11 were captured on foreign soil by military and detained at Gitmo....

 

[Taomon]

Terrorism IS a law enforcement issue.

Really ?

Had we treated 9/11 like we treated the 1993 attack, the Oklahoma bombing, the Khobar Tower bombing and so on, like a criminal act, we would have not only caught the perpetrators funding the scheme...we would be addressing the larger issues that cause terrorism.

Instead we are divided as a nation and our leaders spew fear-mongering rhetoric so they can usurp all the capital for military and surveillance instead of protecting our crumbling economy.