Bush and Officials Lied leading up to Iraq war

[DeadCanDance]

74% of Americans supported the war at the onset.....I don't think it takes a mathmetician to figure out that would translate to a majority of democrats as well.

I followed the wiki link for the 74% number to the actual poll. You didn't.

The poll said 74% supported military action IF and only IF, the inspections ran their course, and if Bush proved his case. And further, that a large majority preferred a diplomatic solution.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

not a tapdance the truth...you seem to have troubles with that...LOL

You must learn that Maineman gets pissed if someone won't lick his boots and shine his shoes. He thinks he gets to set how and in what manner a discussion will occur. He thinks he gets to redefine words and meanings at his pleasure. And if you do not just let him he resorts to name calling foul language and personal attacks. And if you even remotely respond he plays the victim and pretends he has done nothing to deserve the response you give to his attacks.

Being a liberal he thinks that he wins by trying to make YOU look bad. He seldom can prove any of his supposed points so resorts to the tried and true method of his party of attacking the messenger in the hopes others will not read the message.

 

[mattskramer]

By 73% to 24%, Americans said the war was morally justified when it began; today the public is divided, with 47% saying it is morally justified and 50% saying it is not.

Are you saying that in 2003 the electorate wasn't pretty close to split between Republicans and Democrats???

No. I am saying that you can’t logically conclude that most Democrats thought that we should go to war based on the survey that you presented. Show me one that actually explicitly accounts for the number of Democrats and Republicans that were polled. Without it, all that you have is crude rough speculation and guesses.

Many polls will break down the demographics for you. They will tell you what percentage consisted of women and what percentage consisted of men. They often say what percentage was Blacks, Whites, Asians, Mexicans, etc. Give me more information. Without it, all that I see is that most Americans thought that we should go to war. Can I be any more clear.

 

[DeadCanDance]

74% of Americans supported the war at the onset.....I don't think it takes a mathmetician to figure out that would translate to a majority of democrats as well.

If you actually follow the wiki link for the 74% number you cited, to the actual poll, here what is says:

CBS) According to a CBS News/New York Times poll, (64%, 74% last month) Americans support the idea of using military force to remove Saddam Hussein. But they overwhelmingly want diplomatic efforts and the inspections to run their course first -- they would want to see clear evidence against Iraq before going to war.

If the inspectors haven’t found any weapons by next Tuesday -- a deadline for U.N. weapons inspectors to report their findings -- Americans say give them more time. Most Americans think those weapons are there to be found, though many doubt inspectors will find them.

The poll found 63% of Americans want President Bush to find a diplomatic solution.

It also found support for military action -- if it becomes necessary -- is still high, but it has slipped from just two months ago -- 64% now compared to 70% last November.

What's more, Americans seem to want hard evidence that Iraq is cheating. More than two-thirds (77% to 17%) say if inspectors haven't found a smoking gun, they should keep looking.

For the moment, diplomacy is the clearly favored course with regard to Iraq, a feeling that hasn’t changed from two weeks ago.

 

[mattskramer]

You must learn that Maineman gets pissed if someone won't lick his boots and shine his shoes.

LOL. The more accurate statement would be that he challenges people who disagree with him.

He thinks he gets to set how and in what manner a discussion will occur.

That was a nice attempt at mind reading. Now tell me what do I think?

He thinks he gets to redefine words and meanings at his pleasure.

He does not define words. Words have clear precise meanings. There is a difference between the words “Congress”, “Senate”, and “House of Representatives”. You seem to try to cloud the meanings.

And if you do not just let him he resorts to name calling foul language and personal attacks.

I agree that he tends to resort to name-calling.

And if you even remotely respond he plays the victim and pretends he has done nothing to deserve the response you give to his attacks.

I disagree. He sticks to his guns and keeps people from sidestepping the challenges and counterchallenges.

Being a liberal he thinks that he wins by trying to make YOU look bad

What does being a liberal or a conservative have to do with it? Are you resorting to categorization and confusing the person with the group and the group with the person?

He seldom can prove any of his supposed points so resorts to the tried and true method of his party of attacking the messenger in the hopes others will not read the message.

He often presents links that explicitly support his claims. People make mistakes but compared to other people here, he rarely attacks the messenger and often sticks to debating the issues.

 

[jreeves]

No. I am saying that you can’t logically conclude that most Democrats thought that we should go to war based on the survey that you presented. Show me one that actually explicitly accounts for the number of Democrats and Republicans that were polled. Without it, all that you have is crude rough speculation and guesses.

Many polls will break down the demographics for you. They will tell you what percentage consisted of women and what percentage consisted of men. They often say what percentage was Blacks, Whites, Asians, Mexicans, etc. Give me more information. Without it, all that I see is that most Americans thought that we should go to war. Can I be any more clear.

That these polls are unreliable for their polling sample?

 

[jreeves]

I followed the wiki link for the 74% number to the actual poll. You didn't.

The poll said 74% supported military action IF and only IF, the inspections ran their course, and if Bush proved his case. And further, that a large majority preferred a diplomatic solution.

The other poll....was that the same case??

 

[jreeves]

You should have clicked on the wiki link to the actual poll. Here's what it said:

This poll;

http://www.emergingdemocraticmajorityweblog.com/donkeyrising/archives/001414.php

 

[Dr Grump]

When all is said and done, the US should never have gone into Iraq. The bottom line was, it was none of their business, but once again they have to put their nose in where it's not wanted. Now there are almost 4000 families without loved ones...and that's just in the US, let alone other "coalition" countries or the poor everyday Iraqis themselves. It was a major fuckup from day one, and all down to a bunch of chickenhawk neocons...

 

[mattskramer]

That these polls are unreliable for their polling sample?

The question is valid extrapolation – not reliability. Again, I think that you should do a basic study of statistics.

How many times do I need to repeat myself until you grasp what I an trying to communicate? The poll probably has high validity to suggest that most Americans at one point in time supported our going to Iraq. It would not be accurate to say that it shows that most Democrats supported our going to war. One would need more information from the poll to arrive at that conclusion.

 

[Dr Grump]

No matter how Jwees manages to wriggle and wiggle, the bottom line is the war was approved by a Repub pres and congress. End of story.

 

[jreeves]

No. I am saying that you can’t logically conclude that most Democrats thought that we should go to war based on the survey that you presented. Show me one that actually explicitly accounts for the number of Democrats and Republicans that were polled. Without it, all that you have is crude rough speculation and guesses.

Many polls will break down the demographics for you. They will tell you what percentage consisted of women and what percentage consisted of men. They often say what percentage was Blacks, Whites, Asians, Mexicans, etc. Give me more information. Without it, all that I see is that most Americans thought that we should go to war. Can I be any more clear.

If you believe in the reliability of these polls, then one can conclude, if Gallup or CBS news is reporting what Americans think then you have to believe they got an accurate polling sample of both Democrats and Republicans...are you suggesting something different?

 

[jreeves]

No matter how Jwees manages to wriggle and wiggle, the bottom line is the war was approved by a Repub pres and congress. End of story.

Supported the war until they saw an opening to get political gain from bashing Republicans on the war.

 

[Dr Grump]

Supported the war until they saw an opening to get political gain from bashing Republicans on the war.

SOME Democrats..

What I love about you right-wing nutjobs is that you are really really really hot on people taking responsbilities for their actions. So in this case, instead of attempting to defend the actions of your boys, you try and bob and weave by saying "the dems did it too". Tough shit, they were not in charge. Your boys were.Deal with it.

 

[jreeves]

SOME Democrats..

What I love about you right-wing nutjobs is that you are really really really hot on people taking responsbilities for their actions. So in this case, instead of attempting to defend the actions of your boys, you try and bob and weave by saying "the dems did it too". Tough shit, they were not in charge. Your boys were.Deal with it.

A majority of Americans(including democrats) supported the war. So put at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself you are bad boy...LOL

 

[mattskramer]

If you believe in the reliability of these polls, then one can conclude, if Gallup or CBS news is reporting what Americans think then you have to believe they got an accurate polling sample of both Democrats and Republicans...are you suggesting something different?

Even if they took an equal number of Democrats and Republicans, it is still mathematically possible to have 74 percent of them combined support going to war and conclude that a majority Democrats did not support it. Simple math:

Total Sample Size: 100 (50 Democrats + 50 Republicans)
Number of Republicans supporting going to war: 50 out of 50.
Number of Democrats supporting going to war: 24 out of 50.

Conclusion:
74 percent of Americans supported going to war.
100 percent of Republicans supported going to war.
Less that 50 percent of Democrats supported going to war.

I grant you that the example that I gave was an extreme example but it was meant to prove a point. I want more information in a poll before I conclude anything that the poll does not explicitly state.

 

[jreeves]

Even if they took an equal number of Democrats and Republicans, it is still mathematically possible to have 74 percent of them combined support going to war and conclude that a majority Democrats did not support it. Simple math:

Total Sample Size: 100 (50 Democrats + 50 Republicans)
Number of Republicans supporting going to war: 50 out of 50.
Number of Democrats supporting going to war: 24 out of 50.

Conclusion:
74 percent of Americans supported going to war.
100 percent of Republicans supported going to war.
Less that 50 percent of Democrats supported going to war.

I grant you that the example that I gave was an extreme example but it was meant to prove a point. I want more information in a poll before I conclude anything that the poll does not explicitly state.

Ironious conclusion....we both know that Bush didn't win the 2004 election in a landslide....that would have had to happen to give you your numbers. We both know the electorate in 2002 was evenly split. But by the poll we know that 74% of Americans supported the removal of Saddam....LOL

 

[Dr Grump]

A majority of Americans(including democrats) supported the war. So put at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself you are bad boy...LOL

They supported the war because they believed in their leaders. Their leaders were found wanting. Their leaders were GoPers. When are you going to take responsibility for your actions. That mantra is now found wanting. So when all is said and done, like most conservatives you like to pass the buck. Well done....

 

[mattskramer]

Ironious conclusion....we both know that Bush didn't win the 2004 election in a landslide....that would have had to happen to give you your numbers. We both know the electorate in 2002 was evenly split. But by the poll we know that 74% of Americans supported the removal of Saddam....LOL

I’m not talking about Bush’s election. I am demonstrating that just because 74 percent of Americans supposedly supported going to war does not necessarily mean that most Democrats supported going to war. We don’t even know what percentage of those polled were “true Democrats” and “true Republicans”. Perhaps the Democrats were underrepresented. I stand by my example. We need more information.

Speaking of the presidential election, we have exit polls and other sources of information to find out how many Democrats voted for Bush and how many Republicans voted for Bush. I don’t see such a political breakdown with respect to the poll concerning Americans supporting the notion that we should go to war.

 

[maineman]

not a tapdance the truth...you seem to have troubles with that...LOL

the truth is what I stated and what you disagreed with. A majority of congressional democrats voted against the use of force resolution. You need a remedial math course.