"Brownie....You're Doin' A Helluva Job"

[Faun]

Mandatory evacuations in some parts of the city were issued 2 days before the storm.

There was a mandatory evacuation the day before the storm hit. Many people, including myself, and presumably the bus drivers, were under contract not to leave in the event of a hurricane, on pain of being fired. I considered staying for about 5 minutes, before I made up my mind that my job billing Medicare at Charity Hospital was not as important as saving myself and my family, and I got the hell out of town. I seriously doubt that any of those bus drivers would have felt so concerned about their school bus driving job that they would have put their family at risk and report to work. New Orleans had never had a mandatory evacuation before.

Nevertheless. The issue is not about bus drivers. The issue is about the slow emergency response from various government agencies after the storm.

Let me give you a hypothetical then...

Let's pretend that Ray Nagin had his shit together and as that storm crossed Florida and regained strength out in the Gulf...he informed the people of New Orleans that if the storm WERE to head towards the city that he would be declaring a mandatory evacuation and that transportation for that evacuation would be provided with city school buses for anyone who did not have a car as was outlined in the city's emergency evacuation plan!

Let's pretend that people got on those buses and evacuated New Orleans instead of going to the Superdome.

What happens following the storm while FEMA is trying to get it's people and supplies through the giant punch bowl filled with flood waters that New Orleans had become? Is there an issue with desperate people running out of food and water at the Superdome? Obviously no, because FEMA had stocked the Superdome with supplies before the storm...just nowhere near the amounts needed to provide for all the people that Nagin didn't get out of the city! Is the Coast Guard desperately trying to rescue people off rooftops in the lower wards? Probably a few holdouts but if Nagin had gotten the majority of those people out of the city the number of deaths from the storm would have been very few.

So what government REALLY failed the people of New Orleans?

Ok, let's follow your hypothetical to it's logical conclusion. Nagin follows the plan .... somehow get hundreds of bus drivers to abandon their own families to bus folks out of New Orleans .... they follow the plan and drive to the north side of Lake Pontchartrain to wait for the storm to pass .... the hurricane follows them to the north and thousands more die, stuck in busses which can't escape the storm's path.

All that remains the same as what actually happened is righties' screaming Nagin's head on a pike.

LOL....why would the buses go north when that's the projected path of the storm? Most of the evacuees from New Orleans went west to Houston. You get more pathetic with each post where you try to excuse Nagin's incompetence, Faun.

And just to show that you're REALLY clueless...even going north and inexplicably staying in the path of the storm they would have been far safer than in New Orleans.

That was the plan you keep saying they should have followed. How quickly you abandon your own position once you hear how stupid it is.

How have I abandoned my position? The city of New Orleans had an emergency evacuation plan that recognized that a large percentage of the city did not own cars and therefore would have no means to evacuate if called on to do so. The solution to that was a plan that called for school buses to be used to transport those people out of the city. That plan was in place LONG before Katrina formed.

Yet when the city WAS threatened by a category 5 storm...Ray Nagin inexplicably didn't follow his own emergency evacuation plan! He didn't use the school buses! He left them sitting in bus yards to be destroyed by flood waters while at the last minute he told people to get rides from their neighbors or from other people at church. The only thing that was "abandoned" was the plan that was abandoned by Ray Nagin...something that you can't explain away.

The "plan" was to drive about 2 hours north to I-12 and wait for the storm to pass.

What you abandoned was your constant claim that they should have stuck to their original plan ..... until you heard what the plan was. As soon as you did, you abandoned your position that they should have stuck to it when you asked why they would do something as stupid as driving a little to the north.

 

[Pogo]

Either way the local Govt. dropped the ball by not utilizing the busses and letting people stay.

They also didn't follow their own emergency evacuation measures. None of the locals were prepared for a hurricane and that's the truth. They also had no problem looting every store they could find and not just for food.

This whole idea of "mandatory" versus "voluntary" evacuation is a complete red herring. As posted innumerable times already there are ALWAYS those who ride out, regardless of whether the government holds your hand and decides for your what you should do. That's true in Louisiana, Florida, the fucking Philippines, anywhere tropical storms exist. I literally know of NOBODY who bases their decision on whether to go or not on what a local government says. You can certainly evacuate without an 'order' to do so, and you can certainly ignore that order and stay put.

This idea that the government somehow controls what people do just has no basis in the real world.

Second, New Orleanians, Louisianans, Mississippians et al certainly WERE prepared for the storm. The storm itself did little damage in the way of human lives. The flooding was the causation there. And the flooding was due to the levee failure, and the levee failure was due to poor construction by the Army Corps of Engineers.

No it was due to the fact that they never repaired those levee's because of lack of money. It was well know that the levee system needed extensive upgrading.

No one forced those folks to stay in New Orleans and if Nagin had used those hundreds of buses many of they could have gotten to safety.

Of course there are those who will stay.

So ---- first it's "Nagin could have got them out" -- then in the next sentence "of course there are those who will stay".

--- Which way you wanna go here? Do people have free will, or do they not?

Again... NOBODY bases their decision on whether to evacuate or not on what the local government says. I've stayed when they said "go" and I've gone when they didn't. And that's true of, literally everybody I know.

As for the levees themselves, they were simply not constructed the way they should have been (not a matter of "repair" but original design), and that's on the ACofE, and that's been determined in court.

>> Corps officials initially said they had never known a levee to fail this way, and they suggested that no one could have predicted it. But the civil engineers panel said yesterday that the failure was foreseen by the Corps' own studies, dating to the mid-1980s. It said the Corps' failure to anticipate the problem reflected an "overall pattern of engineering judgment inconsistent with that required for critical structures." << -- Army Corps Faulted​

But as far as those who stayed being prepared for the storm --- which was your original point --- they were.

There are always those who chose to stay and have no problem expecting someone to risk their lives to come rescue them.

Glad you think they were prepared. Kinda funny all that looting of food and water was done because they were so prepared.

Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

Tell me again who's to blame??

Tell me again where you get this cockamamie idea that the city designs and builds the levees and not the ACofE.

With a link.

Something that will somehow make the Flood Control Act of 1965 go away.

 

[Faun]

Mandatory evacuations in some parts of the city were issued 2 days before the storm.

There was a mandatory evacuation the day before the storm hit. Many people, including myself, and presumably the bus drivers, were under contract not to leave in the event of a hurricane, on pain of being fired. I considered staying for about 5 minutes, before I made up my mind that my job billing Medicare at Charity Hospital was not as important as saving myself and my family, and I got the hell out of town. I seriously doubt that any of those bus drivers would have felt so concerned about their school bus driving job that they would have put their family at risk and report to work. New Orleans had never had a mandatory evacuation before.

Nevertheless. The issue is not about bus drivers. The issue is about the slow emergency response from various government agencies after the storm.

Let me give you a hypothetical then...

Let's pretend that Ray Nagin had his shit together and as that storm crossed Florida and regained strength out in the Gulf...he informed the people of New Orleans that if the storm WERE to head towards the city that he would be declaring a mandatory evacuation and that transportation for that evacuation would be provided with city school buses for anyone who did not have a car as was outlined in the city's emergency evacuation plan!

Let's pretend that people got on those buses and evacuated New Orleans instead of going to the Superdome.

What happens following the storm while FEMA is trying to get it's people and supplies through the giant punch bowl filled with flood waters that New Orleans had become? Is there an issue with desperate people running out of food and water at the Superdome? Obviously no, because FEMA had stocked the Superdome with supplies before the storm...just nowhere near the amounts needed to provide for all the people that Nagin didn't get out of the city! Is the Coast Guard desperately trying to rescue people off rooftops in the lower wards? Probably a few holdouts but if Nagin had gotten the majority of those people out of the city the number of deaths from the storm would have been very few.

So what government REALLY failed the people of New Orleans?

Ok, let's follow your hypothetical to it's logical conclusion. Nagin follows the plan .... somehow get hundreds of bus drivers to abandon their own families to bus folks out of New Orleans .... they follow the plan and drive to the north side of Lake Pontchartrain to wait for the storm to pass .... the hurricane follows them to the north and thousands more die, stuck in busses which can't escape the storm's path.

All that remains the same as what actually happened is righties' screaming Nagin's head on a pike.

LOL....why would the buses go north when that's the projected path of the storm? Most of the evacuees from New Orleans went west to Houston. You get more pathetic with each post where you try to excuse Nagin's incompetence, Faun.

And just to show that you're REALLY clueless...even going north and inexplicably staying in the path of the storm they would have been far safer than in New Orleans.

New levels of Stupid... if a storm is coming from the south, i.e. travelling north... THEN YOU GO NORTH, TO GET AHEAD OF IT.

Where else would you go? SOUTH?

What a collossal fucking IDIOT.

Further, except for a very limited 24-mile-long Causeway bridge which is by design severely limited (i.e. if you get partially across and traffic stops, you're sitting directly over a soon-to-rise Lake Ponchartrain), there is no route to the north -- you have to go west or east first.

Most evacuees from NOLA btw habitually go to Baton Rouge. I have no idea why that is other than it being not below sea level. Me, I went northwest -- both NORTH and WEST being AWAY from the path of the hurricane.

Holy SHIT that was a stupid post.

I wasn't the person who SAID they should go north and remain in the path of the storm...that was Faun...trying desperately to come up with an excuse for why Ray Nagin didn't evacuate people out of that city. He's the "idiot" who thinks the only way out of New Orleans is to go north. I was saying that the exit route that would have made the most sense given Katrina's track was to go west towards Texas. You're right...that really WAS a stupid post! Unfortunately for you...Faun is the one who made it!

You're a fucking retard. I never said they should go north. Can't you read? I pointed out what could have happened had they followed the plan you've been saying all along they should have followed.

SULLIVAN: The plan says the buses would drive two hours north of the city, past a highway called I-12.

 

[Faun]

Faun seems to think that if they HAD evacuated with buses that they would have stopped just north of the city and waited for the storm to hit. How he arrived at THAT conclusion you'd have to ask him yourself. I'm pretty sure that WASN'T how the evacuation plan was drawn up! LOL

Ummm... that was the plan you insist they should have followed.

Now what?

 

[Faun]

Either way the local Govt. dropped the ball by not utilizing the busses and letting people stay.

They also didn't follow their own emergency evacuation measures. None of the locals were prepared for a hurricane and that's the truth. They also had no problem looting every store they could find and not just for food.

This whole idea of "mandatory" versus "voluntary" evacuation is a complete red herring. As posted innumerable times already there are ALWAYS those who ride out, regardless of whether the government holds your hand and decides for your what you should do. That's true in Louisiana, Florida, the fucking Philippines, anywhere tropical storms exist. I literally know of NOBODY who bases their decision on whether to go or not on what a local government says. You can certainly evacuate without an 'order' to do so, and you can certainly ignore that order and stay put.

This idea that the government somehow controls what people do just has no basis in the real world.

Second, New Orleanians, Louisianans, Mississippians et al certainly WERE prepared for the storm. The storm itself did little damage in the way of human lives. The flooding was the causatiohn there. And the flooding was due to the levee failure, and the levee failure was due to poor construction by the Army Corps of Engineers.

Gee, you live in an area that is below sea level protected by levees built to protect the city from storms up to a category 3 and there is a monster storm out in the Gulf headed your way...do you think that "flooding" might be a concern that would prompt you to evacuate?

As for poor construction by the Army Corps of Engineers? Millions of dollars in Federal funds were approved to be used along with matching State and local funds to repair the levee system in New Orleans but those funds were never put into use because local politicians spent local money on OTHER projects that benefited them or the people who were giving them payoffs and there were no funds left to match the Federal money.

You really aren't capable of learning, huh? The storm was projected to hit elsewhere until about 2 days before it actually hit -- at which time, evacuations began. Some mandatory, others urged. That's what cities do.

 

[Claudette]

Either way the local Govt. dropped the ball by not utilizing the busses and letting people stay.

They also didn't follow their own emergency evacuation measures. None of the locals were prepared for a hurricane and that's the truth. They also had no problem looting every store they could find and not just for food.

This whole idea of "mandatory" versus "voluntary" evacuation is a complete red herring. As posted innumerable times already there are ALWAYS those who ride out, regardless of whether the government holds your hand and decides for your what you should do. That's true in Louisiana, Florida, the fucking Philippines, anywhere tropical storms exist. I literally know of NOBODY who bases their decision on whether to go or not on what a local government says. You can certainly evacuate without an 'order' to do so, and you can certainly ignore that order and stay put.

This idea that the government somehow controls what people do just has no basis in the real world.

Second, New Orleanians, Louisianans, Mississippians et al certainly WERE prepared for the storm. The storm itself did little damage in the way of human lives. The flooding was the causation there. And the flooding was due to the levee failure, and the levee failure was due to poor construction by the Army Corps of Engineers.

No it was due to the fact that they never repaired those levee's because of lack of money. It was well know that the levee system needed extensive upgrading.

No one forced those folks to stay in New Orleans and if Nagin had used those hundreds of buses many of they could have gotten to safety.

Of course there are those who will stay.

So ---- first it's "Nagin could have got them out" -- then in the next sentence "of course there are those who will stay".

--- Which way you wanna go here? Do people have free will, or do they not?

Again... NOBODY bases their decision on whether to evacuate or not on what the local government says. I've stayed when they said "go" and I've gone when they didn't. And that's true of, literally everybody I know.

As for the levees themselves, they were simply not constructed the way they should have been (not a matter of "repair" but original design), and that's on the ACofE, and that's been determined in court.

>> Corps officials initially said they had never known a levee to fail this way, and they suggested that no one could have predicted it. But the civil engineers panel said yesterday that the failure was foreseen by the Corps' own studies, dating to the mid-1980s. It said the Corps' failure to anticipate the problem reflected an "overall pattern of engineering judgment inconsistent with that required for critical structures." << -- Army Corps Faulted​

But as far as those who stayed being prepared for the storm --- which was your original point --- they were.

There are always those who chose to stay and have no problem expecting someone to risk their lives to come rescue them.

Glad you think they were prepared. Kinda funny all that looting of food and water was done because they were so prepared.

Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

Tell me again who's to blame??

Tell me again where you get this cockamamie idea that the city designs and builds the levees and not the ACofE.

With a link.

Something that will somehow make the Flood Control Act of 1965 go away.

Hope that answers your question and no one said anyting about the city designing and repairing the levees. That's the Army Corp of Engineers.

Katrina: Louisiana Federal Money Not Spent on Levees

 

[Faun]

This whole idea of "mandatory" versus "voluntary" evacuation is a complete red herring. As posted innumerable times already there are ALWAYS those who ride out, regardless of whether the government holds your hand and decides for your what you should do. That's true in Louisiana, Florida, the fucking Philippines, anywhere tropical storms exist. I literally know of NOBODY who bases their decision on whether to go or not on what a local government says. You can certainly evacuate without an 'order' to do so, and you can certainly ignore that order and stay put.

This idea that the government somehow controls what people do just has no basis in the real world.

Second, New Orleanians, Louisianans, Mississippians et al certainly WERE prepared for the storm. The storm itself did little damage in the way of human lives. The flooding was the causation there. And the flooding was due to the levee failure, and the levee failure was due to poor construction by the Army Corps of Engineers.

No it was due to the fact that they never repaired those levee's because of lack of money. It was well know that the levee system needed extensive upgrading.

No one forced those folks to stay in New Orleans and if Nagin had used those hundreds of buses many of they could have gotten to safety.

Of course there are those who will stay.

So ---- first it's "Nagin could have got them out" -- then in the next sentence "of course there are those who will stay".

--- Which way you wanna go here? Do people have free will, or do they not?

Again... NOBODY bases their decision on whether to evacuate or not on what the local government says. I've stayed when they said "go" and I've gone when they didn't. And that's true of, literally everybody I know.

As for the levees themselves, they were simply not constructed the way they should have been (not a matter of "repair" but original design), and that's on the ACofE, and that's been determined in court.

>> Corps officials initially said they had never known a levee to fail this way, and they suggested that no one could have predicted it. But the civil engineers panel said yesterday that the failure was foreseen by the Corps' own studies, dating to the mid-1980s. It said the Corps' failure to anticipate the problem reflected an "overall pattern of engineering judgment inconsistent with that required for critical structures." << -- Army Corps Faulted​

But as far as those who stayed being prepared for the storm --- which was your original point --- they were.

There are always those who chose to stay and have no problem expecting someone to risk their lives to come rescue them.

Glad you think they were prepared. Kinda funny all that looting of food and water was done because they were so prepared.

Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

Tell me again who's to blame??

Tell me again where you get this cockamamie idea that the city designs and builds the levees and not the ACofE.

With a link.

Something that will somehow make the Flood Control Act of 1965 go away.

Hope that answers your question and no one said anyting about the city designing and repairing the levees. That's the Army Corp of Engineers.

Katrina: Louisiana Federal Money Not Spent on Levees

Wait... weren't you the one who said,

"Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

 

[Claudette]

No it was due to the fact that they never repaired those levee's because of lack of money. It was well know that the levee system needed extensive upgrading.

No one forced those folks to stay in New Orleans and if Nagin had used those hundreds of buses many of they could have gotten to safety.

Of course there are those who will stay.

So ---- first it's "Nagin could have got them out" -- then in the next sentence "of course there are those who will stay".

--- Which way you wanna go here? Do people have free will, or do they not?

Again... NOBODY bases their decision on whether to evacuate or not on what the local government says. I've stayed when they said "go" and I've gone when they didn't. And that's true of, literally everybody I know.

As for the levees themselves, they were simply not constructed the way they should have been (not a matter of "repair" but original design), and that's on the ACofE, and that's been determined in court.

>> Corps officials initially said they had never known a levee to fail this way, and they suggested that no one could have predicted it. But the civil engineers panel said yesterday that the failure was foreseen by the Corps' own studies, dating to the mid-1980s. It said the Corps' failure to anticipate the problem reflected an "overall pattern of engineering judgment inconsistent with that required for critical structures." << -- Army Corps Faulted​

But as far as those who stayed being prepared for the storm --- which was your original point --- they were.

There are always those who chose to stay and have no problem expecting someone to risk their lives to come rescue them.

Glad you think they were prepared. Kinda funny all that looting of food and water was done because they were so prepared.

Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

Tell me again who's to blame??

Tell me again where you get this cockamamie idea that the city designs and builds the levees and not the ACofE.

With a link.

Something that will somehow make the Flood Control Act of 1965 go away.

Hope that answers your question and no one said anyting about the city designing and repairing the levees. That's the Army Corp of Engineers.

Katrina: Louisiana Federal Money Not Spent on Levees

Wait... weren't you the one who said,

"Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

Yup and the Govt. in LA did want that money spent elsewhere

Read the link and it will tell you all about it and how and where that money was spent.

Yup. The Govt. of LA did its citizens proud.

 

[Pogo]

Either way the local Govt. dropped the ball by not utilizing the busses and letting people stay.

They also didn't follow their own emergency evacuation measures. None of the locals were prepared for a hurricane and that's the truth. They also had no problem looting every store they could find and not just for food.

This whole idea of "mandatory" versus "voluntary" evacuation is a complete red herring. As posted innumerable times already there are ALWAYS those who ride out, regardless of whether the government holds your hand and decides for your what you should do. That's true in Louisiana, Florida, the fucking Philippines, anywhere tropical storms exist. I literally know of NOBODY who bases their decision on whether to go or not on what a local government says. You can certainly evacuate without an 'order' to do so, and you can certainly ignore that order and stay put.

This idea that the government somehow controls what people do just has no basis in the real world.

Second, New Orleanians, Louisianans, Mississippians et al certainly WERE prepared for the storm. The storm itself did little damage in the way of human lives. The flooding was the causatiohn there. And the flooding was due to the levee failure, and the levee failure was due to poor construction by the Army Corps of Engineers.

Gee, you live in an area that is below sea level protected by levees built to protect the city from storms up to a category 3 and there is a monster storm out in the Gulf headed your way...do you think that "flooding" might be a concern that would prompt you to evacuate?

As for poor construction by the Army Corps of Engineers? Millions of dollars in Federal funds were approved to be used along with matching State and local funds to repair the levee system in New Orleans but those funds were never put into use because local politicians spent local money on OTHER projects that benefited them or the people who were giving them payoffs and there were no funds left to match the Federal money.

You really aren't capable of learning, huh? The storm was projected to hit elsewhere until about 2 days before it actually hit -- at which time, evacuations began. Some mandatory, others urged. That's what cities do.

About a day and a half before, less than 36 hours, is when the Hurricane Center predicted the storm would turn north. And again that doesn't mean < 36 hours to act, but a < 36 hour window in which all action must be completed including any evacuation, because you don't move with storm knocking on the door; you move when you first see it turning up your street.

 

[Pogo]

one said anyting about the city designing and repairing the levees. That's the Army Corp of Engineers.

AND I QUOTE:.

The flooding was the causation there. And the flooding was due to the levee failure, and the levee failure was due to poor construction by the Army Corps of Engineers.

No it was due to the fact that they never repaired those levee's because of lack of money. It was well know that the levee system needed extensive upgrading.

So ---- first it's "Nagin could have got them out" -- then in the next sentence "of course there are those who will stay".

--- Which way you wanna go here? Do people have free will, or do they not?

Again... NOBODY bases their decision on whether to evacuate or not on what the local government says. I've stayed when they said "go" and I've gone when they didn't. And that's true of, literally everybody I know.

As for the levees themselves, they were simply not constructed the way they should have been (not a matter of "repair" but original design), and that's on the ACofE, and that's been determined in court.

>> Corps officials initially said they had never known a levee to fail this way, and they suggested that no one could have predicted it. But the civil engineers panel said yesterday that the failure was foreseen by the Corps' own studies, dating to the mid-1980s. It said the Corps' failure to anticipate the problem reflected an "overall pattern of engineering judgment inconsistent with that required for critical structures." << -- Army Corps Faulted​

But as far as those who stayed being prepared for the storm --- which was your original point --- they were.

There are always those who chose to stay and have no problem expecting someone to risk their lives to come rescue them.

Glad you think they were prepared. Kinda funny all that looting of food and water was done because they were so prepared.

Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

Tell me again who's to blame??

Tell me again where you get this cockamamie idea that the city designs and builds the levees and not the ACofE.

With a link.

Something that will somehow make the Flood Control Act of 1965 go away.

Hope that answers your question and no one said anyting about the city designing and repairing the levees. That's the Army Corp of Engineers.

Katrina: Louisiana Federal Money Not Spent on Levees

Wait... weren't you the one who said,

"Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

Yup and the Govt. in LA did want that money spent elsewhere

Read the link and it will tell you all about it and how and where that money was spent.

Yup. The Govt. of LA did its citizens proud.

Oh fer fuckin' Chissake....

I see selective reading stops where convenient, in this case nine-year-old crap:

>> A high-profile 2006 report, underwritten by the National Science Foundation, upheld a common refrain: that local officials in New Orleans had contributed to the disaster by forcing the corps to build less-effective protection for the city than the corps had wanted to build.

The corps had proposed a plan that would have put gates at the mouths of the canals that could be closed as a storm approached. The city’s levee board members and other officials pushed for an alternate corps plan: the construction of several miles of levees and flood walls along the canals.

The gates “would have been the superior technical solution,” the 2006 report stated. “Dysfunctional interaction” between local officials led to the long stretches of levees and flood walls, which failed catastrophically. News accounts after the storm echoed these findings.

But Professor Rogers, who was one of the authors of the 2006 report, has concluded that those earlier findings “may have been both historically and logically flawed.”

The authors of the study looked through a more extensive record, including hundreds of pages of meeting minutes examined by researchers from Levees.org, a New Orleans activist group. They found nothing to suggest that local officials had “behaved irresponsibly,” or that the corps or levee board had “believed that the risk would be significantly increased” by raising the levees and flood walls instead of building the gates.
....
The corps had proposed the gates as an equally effective but far less expensive option, Professor Rogers said, but once the flood walls were chosen, its engineers failed to notice some critical warning signs in their studies, with disastrous results.

.... “We’re not ducking our accountability and responsibility in this,” Lt. Gen. Carl A. Strock, who was chief engineer of the corps, said in a 2006 interview, upon the release of a 6,000-page federal report that found that the flood-control complex surrounding New Orleans had been “a system in name only.”

General Strock did say in that interview that some of the decisions behind the system had been influenced by local officials, who had disliked earlier plans. But, he said, “at the end of the day, we have to stand by the decisions". -- Decade After Katrina, Pointing Finger More Firmly at Corps​

Get that?? The ACofE itself says you're full of shit.

 

[Claudette]

There are always those who chose to stay and have no problem expecting someone to risk their lives to come rescue them.

Glad you think they were prepared. Kinda funny all that looting of food and water was done because they were so prepared.

Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

Tell me again who's to blame??

Tell me again where you get this cockamamie idea that the city designs and builds the levees and not the ACofE.

With a link.

Something that will somehow make the Flood Control Act of 1965 go away.

Hope that answers your question and no one said anyting about the city designing and repairing the levees. That's the Army Corp of Engineers.

Katrina: Louisiana Federal Money Not Spent on Levees

Wait... weren't you the one who said,

"Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

Yup and the Govt. in LA did want that money spent elsewhere

Read the link and it will tell you all about it and how and where that money was spent.

Yup. The Govt. of LA did its citizens proud.

Oh fer fuckin' Chissake....

I see selective reading stops where convenient, in this case nine-year-old crap:

>> A high-profile 2006 report, underwritten by the National Science Foundation, upheld a common refrain: that local officials in New Orleans had contributed to the disaster by forcing the corps to build less-effective protection for the city than the corps had wanted to build.

The corps had proposed a plan that would have put gates at the mouths of the canals that could be closed as a storm approached. The city’s levee board members and other officials pushed for an alternate corps plan: the construction of several miles of levees and flood walls along the canals.

The gates “would have been the superior technical solution,” the 2006 report stated. “Dysfunctional interaction” between local officials led to the long stretches of levees and flood walls, which failed catastrophically. News accounts after the storm echoed these findings.

But Professor Rogers, who was one of the authors of the 2006 report, has concluded that those earlier findings “may have been both historically and logically flawed.”

The authors of the study looked through a more extensive record, including hundreds of pages of meeting minutes examined by researchers from Levees.org, a New Orleans activist group. They found nothing to suggest that local officials had “behaved irresponsibly,” or that the corps or levee board had “believed that the risk would be significantly increased” by raising the levees and flood walls instead of building the gates.
....
The corps had proposed the gates as an equally effective but far less expensive option, Professor Rogers said, but once the flood walls were chosen, its engineers failed to notice some critical warning signs in their studies, with disastrous results.

.... “We’re not ducking our accountability and responsibility in this,” Lt. Gen. Carl A. Strock, who was chief engineer of the corps, said in a 2006 interview, upon the release of a 6,000-page federal report that found that the flood-control complex surrounding New Orleans had been “a system in name only.”

General Strock did say in that interview that some of the decisions behind the system had been influenced by local officials, who had disliked earlier plans. But, he said, “at the end of the day, we have to stand by the decisions". -- Decade After Katrina, Pointing Finger More Firmly at Corps​

Get that?? The ACofE itself says you're full of shit.

Oh for fucks sake.
Money Flowed to Questionable Projects (WaPo, A1)

Before Hurricane Katrina breached a levee on the New Orleans Industrial Canal, the Army Corps of Engineers had already launched a $748 million construction project at that very location. But the project had nothing to do with flood control. The Corps was building a huge new lock for the canal, an effort to accommodate steadily increasing barge traffic. Except that barge traffic on the canal has been steadily decreasing.

In Katrina’s wake, Louisiana politicians and other critics have complained about paltry funding for the Army Corps in general and Louisiana projects in particular. But over the five years of President Bush’s administration, Louisiana has received far more money for Corps civil works projects than any other state, about $1.9 billion; California was a distant second with less than $1.4 billion, even though its population is more than seven times as large.

Much of that Louisiana money was spent to try to keep low-lying New Orleans dry. But hundreds of millions of dollars have gone to unrelated water projects demanded by the state’s congressional delegation and approved by the Corps, often after economic analyses that turned out to be inaccurate. Despite a series of independent investigations criticizing Army Corps construction projects as wasteful pork-barrel spending, Louisiana’s representatives have kept bringing home the bacon.

They brought home the bacon all right and ignored the levee's.

 

[Pogo]

Tell me again where you get this cockamamie idea that the city designs and builds the levees and not the ACofE.

With a link.

Something that will somehow make the Flood Control Act of 1965 go away.

Hope that answers your question and no one said anyting about the city designing and repairing the levees. That's the Army Corp of Engineers.

Katrina: Louisiana Federal Money Not Spent on Levees

Wait... weren't you the one who said,

"Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

Yup and the Govt. in LA did want that money spent elsewhere

Read the link and it will tell you all about it and how and where that money was spent.

Yup. The Govt. of LA did its citizens proud.

Oh fer fuckin' Chissake....

I see selective reading stops where convenient, in this case nine-year-old crap:

>> A high-profile 2006 report, underwritten by the National Science Foundation, upheld a common refrain: that local officials in New Orleans had contributed to the disaster by forcing the corps to build less-effective protection for the city than the corps had wanted to build.

The corps had proposed a plan that would have put gates at the mouths of the canals that could be closed as a storm approached. The city’s levee board members and other officials pushed for an alternate corps plan: the construction of several miles of levees and flood walls along the canals.

The gates “would have been the superior technical solution,” the 2006 report stated. “Dysfunctional interaction” between local officials led to the long stretches of levees and flood walls, which failed catastrophically. News accounts after the storm echoed these findings.

But Professor Rogers, who was one of the authors of the 2006 report, has concluded that those earlier findings “may have been both historically and logically flawed.”

The authors of the study looked through a more extensive record, including hundreds of pages of meeting minutes examined by researchers from Levees.org, a New Orleans activist group. They found nothing to suggest that local officials had “behaved irresponsibly,” or that the corps or levee board had “believed that the risk would be significantly increased” by raising the levees and flood walls instead of building the gates.
....
The corps had proposed the gates as an equally effective but far less expensive option, Professor Rogers said, but once the flood walls were chosen, its engineers failed to notice some critical warning signs in their studies, with disastrous results.

.... “We’re not ducking our accountability and responsibility in this,” Lt. Gen. Carl A. Strock, who was chief engineer of the corps, said in a 2006 interview, upon the release of a 6,000-page federal report that found that the flood-control complex surrounding New Orleans had been “a system in name only.”

General Strock did say in that interview that some of the decisions behind the system had been influenced by local officials, who had disliked earlier plans. But, he said, “at the end of the day, we have to stand by the decisions". -- Decade After Katrina, Pointing Finger More Firmly at Corps​

Get that?? The ACofE itself says you're full of shit.

Oh for fucks sake.
Money Flowed to Questionable Projects (WaPo, A1)

Before Hurricane Katrina breached a levee on the New Orleans Industrial Canal, the Army Corps of Engineers had already launched a $748 million construction project at that very location. But the project had nothing to do with flood control. The Corps was building a huge new lock for the canal, an effort to accommodate steadily increasing barge traffic. Except that barge traffic on the canal has been steadily decreasing.

In Katrina’s wake, Louisiana politicians and other critics have complained about paltry funding for the Army Corps in general and Louisiana projects in particular. But over the five years of President Bush’s administration, Louisiana has received far more money for Corps civil works projects than any other state, about $1.9 billion; California was a distant second with less than $1.4 billion, even though its population is more than seven times as large.

Much of that Louisiana money was spent to try to keep low-lying New Orleans dry. But hundreds of millions of dollars have gone to unrelated water projects demanded by the state’s congressional delegation and approved by the Corps, often after economic analyses that turned out to be inaccurate. Despite a series of independent investigations criticizing Army Corps construction projects as wasteful pork-barrel spending, Louisiana’s representatives have kept bringing home the bacon.

They brought home the bacon all right and ignored the levee's.

Dated September 8 ---- 2005. Ten years ago and one week after flooding, a full MONTH before residents were even allowed back in, and long before any physical assessment could be undertaken.

As I said --- selective reading which is easily debunked. Yanno I bet if you looked hard enough you could come up with somebody writing that the earth is flat too.

Once AGAIN -- Flood Control Act of 1965 isn't going away. That's when Congress ordered the ACofE to build this shit. It did not authorize the city or the parish to do it.

 

[Claudette]

Doesn't matter. They used that money for other than the repair of the levee's.

If they had repaired the levee's Katrina wouldn't have blooded everything.

Oh and you have that selective reading syndrome.

Did you stop to think that's when the story was written, not when it all occurred. Of course you didn't.

 

[Pogo]

Doesn't matter. They used that money for other than the repair of the levee's.

If they had repaired the levee's Katrina wouldn't have blooded everything.

THEY.
DO.
NOT.
"REPAIR".
LEVEES.

The ACofE does that.

 

[Oldstyle]

Before hurricane Charlie hit the Fort Myers area most of the models had it making landfall up around Tampa. Funny thing though, Faun...local officials in Southwest Florida prepared like the storm might hit us. Now why would they do that? An even better question...WHY DIDN'T RAY NAGIN?

Why didn't you answer? Remind me.... how many days before Charley hiy Florida did they evacuate Miami-Dade, Broward & Palm Beach counties?

Still no answer to the question above??

What gives?

Why would they call for an evacuation from a storm that was barely a category 1 as it approached the Atlantic Coast of Florida? Do you not grasp the difference between a category 1 storm and a category 5 storm? Anyone that knows how hurricanes generally operate down here in the Gulf understands that hurricanes can "regenerate" over the much warmer Gulf waters and become much more powerful than they were in the Atlantic before they make landfall again.

Dayam. It's like you just don't want to answer my question. Now you're answering questions I didn't ask. I didn't ask what categories those hurricanes were when evacuations were underway, which you got wrong anyway. I asked, when we're evacuations ordered for Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties? That question seeks a time, not a level of a hurricane.

And for the record, Katrina wasn't a cat 5 until the day before hitting NO. She was a cat 3 the day before that when evacuations were already underway.

And Charley was a cat 2 when they began evacuating areas in Florida.

Either way the local Govt. dropped the ball by not utilizing the busses and letting people stay.

They also didn't follow their own emergency evacuation measures. None of the locals were prepared for a hurricane and that's the truth. They also had no problem looting every store they could find and not just for food.

This whole idea of "mandatory" versus "voluntary" evacuation is a complete red herring. As posted innumerable times already there are ALWAYS those who ride out, regardless of whether the government holds your hand and decides for your what you should do. That's true in Louisiana, Florida, the fucking Philippines, anywhere tropical storms exist. I literally know of NOBODY who bases their decision on whether to go or not on what a local government says. You can certainly evacuate without an 'order' to do so, and you can certainly ignore that order and stay put.

This idea that the government somehow controls what people do just has no basis in the real world.

Second, New Orleanians, Louisianans, Mississippians et al certainly WERE prepared for the storm. The storm itself did little damage in the way of human lives. The flooding was the causatiohn there. And the flooding was due to the levee failure, and the levee failure was due to poor construction by the Army Corps of Engineers.

Gee, you live in an area that is below sea level protected by levees built to protect the city from storms up to a category 3 and there is a monster storm out in the Gulf headed your way...do you think that "flooding" might be a concern that would prompt you to evacuate?

As for poor construction by the Army Corps of Engineers? Millions of dollars in Federal funds were approved to be used along with matching State and local funds to repair the levee system in New Orleans but those funds were never put into use because local politicians spent local money on OTHER projects that benefited them or the people who were giving them payoffs and there were no funds left to match the Federal money.

You really aren't capable of learning, huh? The storm was projected to hit elsewhere until about 2 days before it actually hit -- at which time, evacuations began. Some mandatory, others urged. That's what cities do.

You're incapable of admitting that when the storm was projected to hit New Orleans...the mayor of that city, Ray Nagin failed to implement the evacuation plan that had been formulated for just such an emergency! Explain to me how it is that at the very moment that people without transportation most desperately needed it...Ray Nagin suddenly made the call that he couldn't use school buses because of concerns over insurance liability? How exactly does that happen? How do you tell people that if the shit hits the fan we'll get you out using school buses and then when the shit really DOES hit the fan you tell them to hitch a ride with someone from church? I mean...SERIOUSLY? Did Ray Nagin actually tell people that?

 

[Oldstyle]

Doesn't matter. They used that money for other than the repair of the levee's.

If they had repaired the levee's Katrina wouldn't have blooded everything.

THEY.
DO.
NOT.
"REPAIR".
LEVEES.

The ACofE does that.

And where does the Army Corps of Engineers get the funding to do those repairs?

 

[Oldstyle]

The answer to that question is Federal matching funds and local funds. Perhaps you don't understand the concept of "matching funds". It's rather simple. You as a local government put up funds and then the Federal Government matches those funds with taxpayer monies. If you don't have the local funds (and New Orleans has a LONG history of those funds being diverted for projects that lined the pockets of politicians) then you don't get the Federal funds!

 

[Oldstyle]

one said anyting about the city designing and repairing the levees. That's the Army Corp of Engineers.

AND I QUOTE:.

The flooding was the causation there. And the flooding was due to the levee failure, and the levee failure was due to poor construction by the Army Corps of Engineers.

No it was due to the fact that they never repaired those levee's because of lack of money. It was well know that the levee system needed extensive upgrading.

There are always those who chose to stay and have no problem expecting someone to risk their lives to come rescue them.

Glad you think they were prepared. Kinda funny all that looting of food and water was done because they were so prepared.

Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

Tell me again who's to blame??

Tell me again where you get this cockamamie idea that the city designs and builds the levees and not the ACofE.

With a link.

Something that will somehow make the Flood Control Act of 1965 go away.

Hope that answers your question and no one said anyting about the city designing and repairing the levees. That's the Army Corp of Engineers.

Katrina: Louisiana Federal Money Not Spent on Levees

Wait... weren't you the one who said,

"Those levee's needed work and the Govt. in LA decided that money needed to be spent somewhere else.

Yup and the Govt. in LA did want that money spent elsewhere

Read the link and it will tell you all about it and how and where that money was spent.

Yup. The Govt. of LA did its citizens proud.

Oh fer fuckin' Chissake....

I see selective reading stops where convenient, in this case nine-year-old crap:

>> A high-profile 2006 report, underwritten by the National Science Foundation, upheld a common refrain: that local officials in New Orleans had contributed to the disaster by forcing the corps to build less-effective protection for the city than the corps had wanted to build.

The corps had proposed a plan that would have put gates at the mouths of the canals that could be closed as a storm approached. The city’s levee board members and other officials pushed for an alternate corps plan: the construction of several miles of levees and flood walls along the canals.

The gates “would have been the superior technical solution,” the 2006 report stated. “Dysfunctional interaction” between local officials led to the long stretches of levees and flood walls, which failed catastrophically. News accounts after the storm echoed these findings.

But Professor Rogers, who was one of the authors of the 2006 report, has concluded that those earlier findings “may have been both historically and logically flawed.”

The authors of the study looked through a more extensive record, including hundreds of pages of meeting minutes examined by researchers from Levees.org, a New Orleans activist group. They found nothing to suggest that local officials had “behaved irresponsibly,” or that the corps or levee board had “believed that the risk would be significantly increased” by raising the levees and flood walls instead of building the gates.
....
The corps had proposed the gates as an equally effective but far less expensive option, Professor Rogers said, but once the flood walls were chosen, its engineers failed to notice some critical warning signs in their studies, with disastrous results.

.... “We’re not ducking our accountability and responsibility in this,” Lt. Gen. Carl A. Strock, who was chief engineer of the corps, said in a 2006 interview, upon the release of a 6,000-page federal report that found that the flood-control complex surrounding New Orleans had been “a system in name only.”

General Strock did say in that interview that some of the decisions behind the system had been influenced by local officials, who had disliked earlier plans. But, he said, “at the end of the day, we have to stand by the decisions". -- Decade After Katrina, Pointing Finger More Firmly at Corps​

Get that?? The ACofE itself says you're full of shit.

So here's my question for you, Pogo...

It's obvious that there was a raging debate going on in New Orleans about HOW to improve the levee system! Given THAT...wouldn't it be rather apparent that the levee system was not adequate if a large storm hit New Orleans? Wouldn't that be something that local leaders should have known? And if so...why didn't they get people out of that city far sooner than they did...and why did they fail to implement the emergency evacuation plans that they had in place to do so?

 

[Claudette]

Doesn't matter. They used that money for other than the repair of the levee's.

If they had repaired the levee's Katrina wouldn't have blooded everything.

THEY.
DO.
NOT.
"REPAIR".
LEVEES.

The ACofE does that.

Of course they don't. The Army Corp of Engineers does as everyone knows.

 

[Pogo]

Doesn't matter. They used that money for other than the repair of the levee's.

If they had repaired the levee's Katrina wouldn't have blooded everything.

THEY.
DO.
NOT.
"REPAIR".
LEVEES.

The ACofE does that.

Of course they don't. The Army Corp of Engineers does as everyone knows.

Way to 180 your own point. Thanks for admitting you were wrong all along.