Debate Now Boxes and the Art of Thinking Outside of Them

[Capstone]

IMO, belief is your perception of what you experience or reason--which is why I put it directly inside the perception/philosophy box. I see it as synonymous with knowledge, but the two are not necessarily the same thing as one might be infallible and the other deeply flawed.

An illustration, taken from a publication article that has been bantered about extensively on message boards recently: A nurse was seconds from administering a vaccine to a child when the child had a seizure. Had that vaccination happened moments before the child had the seizure, there is nothing on Earth that would have convinced the parents of that child that the vaccine did not trigger the seizure.

In this case knowledge was that a seizure and a vaccine happened in close proximity to each other. Belief is what is concluded by that knowledge. In one case, because the seizure happened before the vaccine, it was unrelated to the vaccine. In the other case, because the seizure happened immediately after the vaccine, the vaccine is believed to have caused it.

So in my box solving formula, I would have to allow that all the boxes inside my belief box could possibly contain things that may have to be discarded.

I like the implications that knowledge is tied directly to sense perception (humanity's 5-cylinder vehicle for "experience"), and that our beliefs are the more abstract conclusions drawn from those experiences (full disclosure: I do lean more toward empiricism than rationalism).

Of course, there are problems inherent in placing too great an emphasis on the primacy of sense perception, particularly as a dividing line between certainty (what I know to be the case) and uncertainty (what I merely believe to be the case). Hallucinations, waking and sleeping dreams, and illusions all have to be accounted for in a sense-based epistemic theory. Still, thanks to the nursing analogy, I'm ready to place "belief" into the "knowledge" box and "knowledge/belief" into the "perception" box...and move on from there.

 

[Foxfyre]

IMO, belief is your perception of what you experience or reason--which is why I put it directly inside the perception/philosophy box. I see it as synonymous with knowledge, but the two are not necessarily the same thing as one might be infallible and the other deeply flawed.

An illustration, taken from a publication article that has been bantered about extensively on message boards recently: A nurse was seconds from administering a vaccine to a child when the child had a seizure. Had that vaccination happened moments before the child had the seizure, there is nothing on Earth that would have convinced the parents of that child that the vaccine did not trigger the seizure.

In this case knowledge was that a seizure and a vaccine happened in close proximity to each other. Belief is what is concluded by that knowledge. In one case, because the seizure happened before the vaccine, it was unrelated to the vaccine. In the other case, because the seizure happened immediately after the vaccine, the vaccine is believed to have caused it.

So in my box solving formula, I would have to allow that all the boxes inside my belief box could possibly contain things that may have to be discarded.

I like the implications that knowledge is tied directly to sense perception (humanity's 5-cylinder vehicle for "experience"), and that our beliefs are the more abstract conclusions drawn from those experiences (full disclosure: I do lean more toward empiricism than rationalism).

Of course, there are problems inherent in placing too great an emphasis on the primacy of sense perception, particularly as a dividing line between certainty (what I know to be the case) and uncertainty (what I merely believe to be the case). Hallucinations, waking and sleeping dreams, and illusions all have to be accounted for in a sense-based epistemic theory. Still, thanks to the nursing analogy, I'm ready to place "belief" into the "knowledge" box and "knowledge/belief" into the "perception" box...and move on from there.

It is true that probably for all of us, some of what we believe is based on notions implanted from long forgotten sources.

There is the old tale of the young newlywed who cut off the ends of the ham before placing it in the pan to go into the oven. Her husband asked her why she did this? The woman thought a moment and realized she didn't know why--it was just the way ham was done. Her mother had always done that. So she called her mother and asked her. Her mother thought for a bit and she didn't know. Her mother had always done that. So she called grandma and asked. Grandma didn't know. Her mother had always done that. So she calls great grandma living at the retirement home. "Why?" Great grandma answered, "the pan was too small."

 

[BlackSand]

Belief - I am, therefore, I believe I have a good and valid purpose on this earth.

Knowledge - I seek the knowledge for what that purpose is.

Perception - I listen to my instincts and my inner voice to validate my beliefs

Philosophy - My philosophy is formed, in part, by my experience

Language - I communicate my beliefs, knowledge, perceptions, and philosophy and "listen" to others communicate theirs.

Emotion - I am passionate about my beliefs after they have been validated.

Mathematics - Life is many ways is an equation for example for every action there is a reaction (Karma)

Science - can help to prove or disprove my beliefs.

Religion - a system of man-made applications established to homogenize society, not to be confused with spirituality.

I see ... You took an introspective view of the exercise.
I would have had far more difficulty using that method.

Where I have strong beliefs ... I have a stronger desire to adapt.
My "principles" are fairly steady ... But my perception, religion, beliefs and philosophy are all pliable.

I guess the equation would be different for everyone.

.

 

[Alex.]

Belief - I am, therefore, I believe I have a good and valid purpose on this earth.

Knowledge - I seek the knowledge for what that purpose is.

Perception - I listen to my instincts and my inner voice to validate my beliefs

Philosophy - My philosophy is formed, in part, by my experience

Language - I communicate my beliefs, knowledge, perceptions, and philosophy and "listen" to others communicate theirs.

Emotion - I am passionate about my beliefs after they have been validated.

Mathematics - Life is many ways is an equation for example for every action there is a reaction (Karma)

Science - can help to prove or disprove my beliefs.

Religion - a system of man-made applications established to homogenize society, not to be confused with spirituality.

I see ... You took an introspective view of the exercise.
I would have had far more difficulty using that method.

Where I have strong beliefs ... I have a stronger desire to adapt.
My "principles" are fairly steady ... But my perception, religion, beliefs and philosophy are all pliable.

I guess the equation would be different for everyone.

.

The equation would be different, I see even in my small way I effect my world and need to know who I am before I act in it.

 

[Capstone]

Regarding "emotion", and not to come across as a dictionary-toting evangelist, but my trusty holy book defines it, in part, as "instinctive or intuitive feeling as distinguished from reasoning or knowledge". While the capacity for this type of "feeling" almost certainly preceded the development of high-order reasoning faculties in the womb, I believe it's still secondary to and in some ways contingent upon sensual stimuli. Since it probably preceded and it definitely pervades our current knowledge and beliefs but is still dependent on "perception" (if not physically then spiritually), I'll place "knowledge/belief" into the "emotion" box and then "emotion/knowledge/belief" into the encompassing "perception" box. At this point it's clear to me that "perception" will remain the all-encompassing box in my equation (with "emotion" as a close second).

So, from large to small, this is my list so far:

• Perception
• Emotion
• Knowledge
• Belief

Before moving on to the abstract disciplines (science, math, ETC.), I think the medium required to communicate all such concepts should be given deference by default. Perceiving, feeling, knowing, and believing are all things that generally occur in the first couple of years of our lives, prior to the development of our abilities to use language. Since the same cannot be said of the higher disciplines, I think "language" should be placed inside the smallest box on my current list ("belief"), leaving only the order of the remaining four smaller boxes to be determined.

 

[Ravi]

I'd say the big box is emotion and none of the rest would exist otherwise.

 

[Capstone]

I'd say the big box is emotion and none of the rest would exist otherwise.

I can understand why you might feel that way, Ravi, which is why it was a close second for me.

However, I think emotions are more responsive in nature, while direct sensual perception is instigative (quite often of emotions).

 

[BlackSand]

Regarding "emotion", and not to come across as a dictionary-toting evangelist, but my trusty holy book defines it, in part, as "instinctive or intuitive feeling as distinguished from reasoning or knowledge". While the capacity for this type of "feeling" almost certainly preceded the development of high-order reasoning faculties in the womb, I believe it's still secondary to and in some ways contingent upon sensual stimuli. Since it probably preceded and it definitely pervades our current knowledge and beliefs but is still dependent on "perception" (if not physically then spiritually), I'll place "knowledge/belief" into the "emotion" box and then "emotion/knowledge/belief" into the encompassing "perception" box. At this point it's clear to me that "perception" will remain the all-encompassing box in my equation (with "emotion" as a close second).

So, from large to small, this is my list so far:

• Perception
• Emotion
• Knowledge
• Belief

Before moving on to the abstract disciplines (science, math, ETC.), I think the medium required to communicate all such concepts should be given deference by default. Perceiving, feeling, knowing, and believing are all things that generally occur in the first couple of years of our lives, prior to the development of our abilities to use language. Since the same cannot be said of the higher disciplines, I think "language" should be placed inside the smallest box on my current list ("belief"), leaving only the order of the remaining four smaller boxes to be determined.

Now that is really neat ... Because I would have never associated emotion as having anything to do with reasoning, logic or knowledge.
Maybe it is because emotions in my experience don't always have to make any sense.

Often I think emotions can be great motivators and provide inspiration and endurance in our endeavors.
I still would never use an emotion as a determining factor as far as mission focus or overall direction ... I guess that is why I put it in the little box.

.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

My approach to such boxes is to see them as all bleeding into one another rather than representing mutually exclusive concepts.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Regarding "emotion", and not to come across as a dictionary-toting evangelist, but my trusty holy book defines it, in part, as "instinctive or intuitive feeling as distinguished from reasoning or knowledge". While the capacity for this type of "feeling" almost certainly preceded the development of high-order reasoning faculties in the womb, I believe it's still secondary to and in some ways contingent upon sensual stimuli. Since it probably preceded and it definitely pervades our current knowledge and beliefs but is still dependent on "perception" (if not physically then spiritually), I'll place "knowledge/belief" into the "emotion" box and then "emotion/knowledge/belief" into the encompassing "perception" box. At this point it's clear to me that "perception" will remain the all-encompassing box in my equation (with "emotion" as a close second).

So, from large to small, this is my list so far:

• Perception
• Emotion
• Knowledge
• Belief

Before moving on to the abstract disciplines (science, math, ETC.), I think the medium required to communicate all such concepts should be given deference by default. Perceiving, feeling, knowing, and believing are all things that generally occur in the first couple of years of our lives, prior to the development of our abilities to use language. Since the same cannot be said of the higher disciplines, I think "language" should be placed inside the smallest box on my current list ("belief"), leaving only the order of the remaining four smaller boxes to be determined.

Now that is really neat ... Because I would have never associated emotion as having anything to do with reasoning, logic or knowledge.
Maybe it is because emotions in my experience don't always have to make any sense.

Often I think emotions can be great motivators and provide inspiration and endurance in our endeavors.
I still would never use an emotion as a determining factor as far as mission focus or overall direction ... I guess that is why I put it in the little box.

.

Emotions are how we describe our feelings. Something that makes us happy, sad, angry, excited, etc. Our feelings come from our senses, both external and internal. For example if someone smiles at you what happens? Do you actively think about them smiling or does your body just react with pleasure and smile back? If you see someone slip and fall do you think that must have hurt them or do you automatically feel empathy for their pain?

Our feelings are autonomous because they occur without conscience thought. We can think about our feelings and emotions and those thoughts can evoke the feelings but spontaneous feelings occur without thought. Someone cuts you off in traffic and your anger is triggered. Your child gives you a spontaneous hug and you feel loved.

So emotion is not rational thought because it is triggered by our physical bodies rather than our brains. Rational thinking is something that is different from emotion. Not everyone is capable of separating the two so it is understandable that they can be confused with one another. Rationality requires that feelings and emotions be excluded from the thought process. Math is pure rational thinking. There is no emotion in the logic of solving a complex equation. There might well be the feeling of accomplishment having solved it correctly but that is post facto.

And let's not discount empathy and compassion when it comes to logical thought. They factor into how we reach decisions. I need to stop and pick up groceries on the way home but if I do then I will be late getting home and the dog need to be walked because she is getting on in years and her ability to hold her bladder is not what it used to be. Pragmatism versus empathy both play a role in that decision.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[BlackSand]

Emotions are how we describe our feelings. Something that makes us happy, sad, angry, excited, etc. Our feelings come from our senses, both external and internal. For example if someone smiles at you what happens? Do you actively think about them smiling or does your body just react with pleasure and smile back? If you see someone slip and fall do you think that must have hurt them or do you automatically feel empathy for their pain?

Our feelings are autonomous because they occur without conscience thought. We can think about our feelings and emotions and those thoughts can evoke the feelings but spontaneous feelings occur without thought. Someone cuts you off in traffic and your anger is triggered. Your child gives you a spontaneous hug and you feel loved.

So emotion is not rational thought because it is triggered by our physical bodies rather than our brains. Rational thinking is something that is different from emotion. Not everyone is capable of separating the two so it is understandable that they can be confused with one another. Rationality requires that feelings and emotions be excluded from the thought process. Math is pure rational thinking. There is no emotion in the logic of solving a complex equation. There might well be the feeling of accomplishment having solved it correctly but that is post facto.

And let's not discount empathy and compassion when it comes to logical thought. They factor into how we reach decisions. I need to stop and pick up groceries on the way home but if I do then I will be late getting home and the dog need to be walked because she is getting on in years and her ability to hold her bladder is not what it used to be. Pragmatism versus empathy both play a role in that decision.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Yeah ... That is why I pretty much put emotion in the little box.

To me ... Emotion is the result or by-product of an event.
It serves little use towards changing the conditions or establishing more grounded results.

Empathy and compassion ... Or even the feeling of accomplishment, never actually achieve anything ... They just work as guidelines that better direct the final outcome.
People who allow their emotions to solely direct their activities are often muddled in indecision as well as fruitless or even damaging situations.

I am just glad that we are not all the same ... Makes the world more interesting.

.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Emotions are how we describe our feelings. Something that makes us happy, sad, angry, excited, etc. Our feelings come from our senses, both external and internal. For example if someone smiles at you what happens? Do you actively think about them smiling or does your body just react with pleasure and smile back? If you see someone slip and fall do you think that must have hurt them or do you automatically feel empathy for their pain?

Our feelings are autonomous because they occur without conscience thought. We can think about our feelings and emotions and those thoughts can evoke the feelings but spontaneous feelings occur without thought. Someone cuts you off in traffic and your anger is triggered. Your child gives you a spontaneous hug and you feel loved.

So emotion is not rational thought because it is triggered by our physical bodies rather than our brains. Rational thinking is something that is different from emotion. Not everyone is capable of separating the two so it is understandable that they can be confused with one another. Rationality requires that feelings and emotions be excluded from the thought process. Math is pure rational thinking. There is no emotion in the logic of solving a complex equation. There might well be the feeling of accomplishment having solved it correctly but that is post facto.

And let's not discount empathy and compassion when it comes to logical thought. They factor into how we reach decisions. I need to stop and pick up groceries on the way home but if I do then I will be late getting home and the dog need to be walked because she is getting on in years and her ability to hold her bladder is not what it used to be. Pragmatism versus empathy both play a role in that decision.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Yeah ... That is why I pretty much put emotion in the little box.

To me ... Emotion is the result or by-product of an event.
It serves little use towards changing the conditions or establishing more grounded results.

Empathy and compassion ... Or even the feeling of accomplishment, never actually achieve anything ... They just work as guidelines that better direct the final outcome.
People who allow their emotions to solely direct their activities are often muddled in indecision as well as fruitless or even damaging situations.

I am just glad that we are not all the same ... Makes the world more interesting.

.

I agree that those who emote do appear to have "muddled thinking" because there is nothing that has to be rational about feelings.

But I don't discount emotions and feelings because we all have them. Suppressing our emotions and feelings can actually be counter productive. Unexpressed anger can turn to resentment and bitterness which will influence rational thinking negatively. We need to deal with honesty with our emotions and feelings in order to maintain balance and to keep our rational thinking clear.

They are 2 sides of the same coin and we can't save/spend one without impacting the value of other IMO.

 

[BlackSand]

I agree that those who emote do appear to have "muddled thinking" because there is nothing that has to be rational about feelings.

But I don't discount emotions and feelings because we all have them. Suppressing our emotions and feelings can actually be counter productive. Unexpressed anger can turn to resentment and bitterness which will influence rational thinking negatively. We need to deal with honesty with our emotions and feelings in order to maintain balance and to keep our rational thinking clear.

They are 2 sides of the same coin and we can't save/spend one without impacting the value of other IMO.

I wouldn't discount emotions ... Because like you said, we are going to have them one way or the other.

I was simply evaluating the productivity of emotions ... Suppressing emotions is not the same as discarding them.
If you have truly "dealt" with an emotion ... It is of no consequence what you do with it afterwards.

It just becomes an experience added to the broader base of knowledge.
Its value remains the same and the difference would only be evident if the person decides to place more value in it than it is worth.

.

 

[Ravi]

I'd say the big box is emotion and none of the rest would exist otherwise.

I can understand why you might feel that way, Ravi, which is why it was a close second for me.

However, I think emotions are more responsive in nature, while direct sensual perception is instigative (quite often of emotions).

I'm not sure what you are saying, can you explain?

It is very hard, if not impossible, to create or even decide on a course of action without emotion.

Here's an article that partially illustrates this.

Decisions Are Emotional not Logical The Neuroscience behind Decision Making Big Think

 

[BlackSand]

I'd say the big box is emotion and none of the rest would exist otherwise.

I can understand why you might feel that way, Ravi, which is why it was a close second for me.

However, I think emotions are more responsive in nature, while direct sensual perception is instigative (quite often of emotions).

I'm not sure what you are saying, can you explain?

It is very hard, if not impossible, to create or even decide on a course of action without emotion.

Here's an article that partially illustrates this.

Decisions Are Emotional not Logical The Neuroscience behind Decision Making Big Think

Where emotion can play a large part in overall direction ... It certainly is not necessary when I make the decision to go fix the fence nor the course of action in doing so.
If I used emotion to determine those aspects ... The fence would still need fixing.

.

 

[Foxfyre]

Regarding "emotion", and not to come across as a dictionary-toting evangelist, but my trusty holy book defines it, in part, as "instinctive or intuitive feeling as distinguished from reasoning or knowledge". While the capacity for this type of "feeling" almost certainly preceded the development of high-order reasoning faculties in the womb, I believe it's still secondary to and in some ways contingent upon sensual stimuli. Since it probably preceded and it definitely pervades our current knowledge and beliefs but is still dependent on "perception" (if not physically then spiritually), I'll place "knowledge/belief" into the "emotion" box and then "emotion/knowledge/belief" into the encompassing "perception" box. At this point it's clear to me that "perception" will remain the all-encompassing box in my equation (with "emotion" as a close second).

So, from large to small, this is my list so far:

• Perception
• Emotion
• Knowledge
• Belief

Before moving on to the abstract disciplines (science, math, ETC.), I think the medium required to communicate all such concepts should be given deference by default. Perceiving, feeling, knowing, and believing are all things that generally occur in the first couple of years of our lives, prior to the development of our abilities to use language. Since the same cannot be said of the higher disciplines, I think "language" should be placed inside the smallest box on my current list ("belief"), leaving only the order of the remaining four smaller boxes to be determined.

Now that is really neat ... Because I would have never associated emotion as having anything to do with reasoning, logic or knowledge.
Maybe it is because emotions in my experience don't always have to make any sense.

Often I think emotions can be great motivators and provide inspiration and endurance in our endeavors.
I still would never use an emotion as a determining factor as far as mission focus or overall direction ... I guess that is why I put it in the little box.

.

Certainly emotion can factor into our choices when we consider which of competing concepts are the most reasonable or plausible to us, or maybe in the one we most want to be right. And that can be a factor in most of the categories.

Except for mathematics. I just can't find a place for emotion there other than whether we like math or not.

But I couldn't reasonably separate math from science either, so I was in a dilemma with that one.

 

[BlackSand]

Certainly emotion can factor into our choices when we consider which of competing concepts are the most reasonable or plausible to us, or maybe in the one we most want to be right. And that can be a factor in most of the categories.

Except for mathematics. I just can't find a place for emotion there other than whether we like math or not.

But I couldn't reasonably separate math from science either, so I was in a dilemma with that one.

I put mathematics in the science box because science is the question and math is the answer.
Math is tool by which we can define set points ... And as mentioned before, it is definitive ... There is a "correct" answer in math independent of opinion.

How you choose to apply math in forming opinion can vary ... But that would revert back to aspects of science and knowledge already gained.

.

 

[Ravi]

I'd say the big box is emotion and none of the rest would exist otherwise.

I can understand why you might feel that way, Ravi, which is why it was a close second for me.

However, I think emotions are more responsive in nature, while direct sensual perception is instigative (quite often of emotions).

I'm not sure what you are saying, can you explain?

It is very hard, if not impossible, to create or even decide on a course of action without emotion.

Here's an article that partially illustrates this.

Decisions Are Emotional not Logical The Neuroscience behind Decision Making Big Think

Where emotion can play a large part in overall direction ... It certainly is not necessary when I make the decision to go fix the fence nor the course of action in doing so.
If I used emotion to determine those aspects ... The fence would still need fixing.

.

If you read the article I linked you will see that it discusses the inability of people that have had the portion of their brains that generate emotion damaged to make decisions. Even the most simple decisions.

 

[BlackSand]

If you read the article I linked you will see that it discusses the inability of people that have had the portion of their brains that generate emotion damaged to make decisions. Even the most simple decisions.

The people who wrote the article didn't fix my fence either.

.

 

[Alex.]

If you read the article I linked you will see that it discusses the inability of people that have had the portion of their brains that generate emotion damaged to make decisions. Even the most simple decisions.

The people who wrote the article didn't fix my fence either.

.

No one can truly fix your "fence" but you. Emotions could play a significant positive role in decision making if used in a balanced way.