LOL this thread is great. "A vat tax is how to become europe" (because all of europe is in the EU LOL). Or better someone implying that a VAT tax is what caused Greece's issue, not American styled spending without American style backing (Yea greece, next time you start spending all the money you don't have, make certain you have kind yellow men backing you up).
Good god historian revisionists are awesome.
As for the original topic of the thread, this is stupid to even talk about, it's not like anyone can prove or disprove this, it just depends on your economic views which dictates how you think growth can be created and maintained.
Since you didn't quote from an individual post, but took issue with most of my comments, I'll just elaborate: The OP is actually about the VAT, as well as immigration as an economic stimulus. We can discuss it witout proving anything; its all grist for open discussion on a forum like this one. Don't you think so?
A useful way to evaluate the VAT is to look where it is already in place, and what has resulted there. The worse case is Greece where they started with a 4.5% VAT, increasing it until now when they are looking at a 10% increase to a rate of 23%, and they also now have the worse economy in the EU.
But the comparison to Europe, and thus my comment relating to savvy (there are some in some sectors) Americans, is that Europe is not a model we want to follow and that is the model, if we refer back to the OP, that Mr. Clinton advocates for us.
If, in the US, a 1% rate yields $100-B , then a 20% rate would supposedly yield $2-Trillion. What a boondoggle that would finance!? No wonder Mr. Clinton is for it.
Since it taxes everyone at the same rate it is a regressive rate (hurts the poor more than the wealthy) and will drive more of them into poverty; something yet again to be cured by transfers of wealth (Europe), while conferring more power on “faceless” Bureaucrats (Europe).
Here’s what has happened to some European nations , plus Japan, and Canada: First the starting rate with the VAT, then the current rate, finally the top income tax rate ( - ):
Canada 7% to 5% - (46.4),
Denmark 9% to 25% - (59.7),
France 13.6% to 19.6% - (45.8),
Germany 10% to 19% - (47.5),
Italy 12% to 20% - (44.9),
Japan 3% to 5% - (50),
Spain 12% to 16% - (43),
Sweden 17.7% to 25% - (56..4),
Switzerland 6.5% to 7.6% - (41.7),
UK 8% to 17.5% - (35%),
US - (35),
(Top income tax rates from the Tax Policy Center data as of 2008, save for UK and US)
What we have seen especially in Europe is that rates start low and increase, while income tax rates stay high.
The unemployment rate in the EU is always much higher than ours by about three points, and GDP a little more than half ours. A three point difference does not sound very large but an 8 percent rate versus a 5 percent rate is not just 3% higher but a whopping 75% higher for the unemployed. To some, the obvious point of looking at Europe, as well as other places, is to take a look at what they have done, see how it has turned out out for them, and decide from our observations whether they are a good model for a FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE of our economy and immigration policies.
Since the very efficiency of the VAT as a taxing mechanism means that it throws off huge amounts of revenue politicians eagerly spend, the VAT thus becomes an engine of even greater public spending:
In Europe, average government spending was about 30.2% of GDP when VATs began to spread in the late 1960s. Today, those governments are spending of 47.1% of GDP on average (more than 50% larger).
By contrast, U.S. government spending, FEDERAL AND STATE, rose from 28.3% to 35.3% (25% larger) as a share of GDP in the same period.
Their increase is double ours. Meanwhile their GDP is on average only about 60% of ours.
Europe vs. USA: Whose Economy Wins? - The New Federalist, webzine of the Young European Federalist
Average gross domestic product (GDP) in the US is about 40% higher than average GDP of the EU-15 when measured at purchasing power parity (PPP). The gap is slightly greater if we consider either the twelve Eurozone members (EU-12) or add the accession states (EU-25).
Europe’s VAT lessons
According to economist Mark Perry of the University of Michigan, Flint.In 2008, the average resident of West Virginia, one of the poorest American states, had an income $2,000 a year higher than the average resident of the European Union.
