Biden's ATF raids Amish dairy farmer, seizes firearm stash in potential 'rogue gun retailer' bust

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Machine guns are legal in all but 17 states.

So is pot.

It needs to be legal to sell in all 50 states, regardless of fake federal law.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So is pot.

It needs to be legal to sell in all 50 states, regardless of fake federal law.

federal law doesnt make it illegal anywhere those states made it illegal

 

[Shawnee_b]

They had no grounds since there is no hard rule that defines how many gun sales are needed to reach the threshold of being a dealer.

If there is no line to cross then there is no crime.

I was a licensed dealer over two decades. How ATF distinguishes between private and a dealer is a simple thing they oft charge people with. "ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS without a license" There has never been a set number. It can be 1, 12 whatever, just remember, it is at their total discretion. If they/ATF feel you are "engaged in the business" your had.

 

[woodwork201]

That is not true. If you are actively buying and selling guns you need to have a Federal Firearms License. If you sell the occasional gun, 2 or 3 a year, you don't.

Any more than that though and you must obtain a license.

Please document where you get those numbers because the laws and the regulations don't provide them. Any use of those numbers or other numbers by the BATFE is purely arbitrary and, very likely, politically based. They key is are you in the business of buying and selling.

Probably turnaround time has more to do with it than numbers though both might be considered.

 

[westwall]

Please document where you get those numbers because the laws and the regulations don't provide them. Any use of those numbers or other numbers by the BATFE is purely arbitrary and, very likely, politically based. They key is are you in the business of buying and selling.

Probably turnaround time has more to do with it than numbers though both might be considered.

I never said they did. They are ATF rules. A friend of mine who does a lot of gun shows had a visit from them.

Now he doesn't sell any longer.

 

[fncceo]

illegal is illegal be it involving guns or not...

There was a time when it was illegal to drink alcohol. There was a time when it was illegal to be gay. There was a time when it was illegal to receive an abortion.

Laws change with the times. Many 'laws' concerning the regulation of firearms have no business in a free, Constitutional society.

Those laws need to be repealled.

 

[woodwork201]

I never said they did. They are ATF rules. A friend of mine who does a lot of gun shows had a visit from them.

Now he doesn't sell any longer.

ATF rules are all public. Please post a link to the rule.

 

[Blues Man]

That is true, but go to a bunch of gun shows and buy and sell and you will see how quick they stop by to tell you to get a license.

There is no legal definition that spells out what a gun dealer is.

 

[Blues Man]

I was a licensed dealer over two decades. How ATF distinguishes between private and a dealer is a simple thing they oft charge people with. "ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS without a license" There has never been a set number. It can be 1, 12 whatever, just remember, it is at their total discretion. If they/ATF feel you are "engaged in the business" your had.

Ambiguous laws are always ruled in the accused favor.

If one guy sells 10 guns with no problems from the ATF but a guy who sell 9 gets arrested then the charges will not stick.

 

[westwall]

There is no legal definition that spells out what a gun dealer is.

I agree, however the ATF lives by a book of rules. Not laws, but rules. They will charge you with a crime, and then you will have to defend yourself. You probably will win, but then you are out tens of thousands.

Most people don't have that kind of money just laying around.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I agree, however the ATF lives by a book of rules. Not laws, but rules. They will charge you with a crime, and then you will have to defend yourself. You probably will win, but then you are out tens of thousands.

Most people don't have that kind of money just laying around.

Yup same with confiscated firearms they wont return them forcing you to go to court.

 

[woodwork201]

Ambiguous laws are always ruled in the accused favor.

If one guy sells 10 guns with no problems from the ATF but a guy who sell 9 gets arrested then the charges will not stick.

It won't stick, assuming that the guy has the resources to potentially go to the Supreme Court. Many who cannot afford the very best legal representation would go to prison.

 

[woodwork201]

I agree, however the ATF lives by a book of rules. Not laws, but rules. They will charge you with a crime, and then you will have to defend yourself. You probably will win, but then you are out tens of thousands.

Most people don't have that kind of money just laying around.

Once again, you're wrong. The problem in this story is that the BATFE does NOT live by a book of rules. Rules are made up on the fly, created retroactively, and applied arbitrarily. If they lived by a book of rules we could all get that book and you could produce it to back up your statements about numbers.

This is what, I think, Blues Man is trying to explain: because the law is so vague, sellers cannot know exactly what and when the BATFE will be triggered and they are triggered inconsistently. In many Supreme Court cases for vague laws, the laws are thrown out because it can't be reliably complied with.

 

[HenryBHough]

Amish are to Xiden as Jews were to Hitler. First they came for........

 

[westwall]

Once again, you're wrong. The problem in this story is that the BATFE does NOT live by a book of rules. Rules are made up on the fly, created retroactively, and applied arbitrarily. If they lived by a book of rules we could all get that book and you could produce it to back up your statements about numbers.

This is what, I think, Blues Man is trying to explain: because the law is so vague, sellers cannot know exactly what and when the BATFE will be triggered and they are triggered inconsistently. In many Supreme Court cases for vague laws, the laws are thrown out because it can't be reliably complied with.

I agree with everything you have said, but the reality is the ATF targets people all of the time. They charge you with a crime, and you have to defend yourself to the tune of thousands of dollars. They have been doing this for DECADES.

 

[woodwork201]

I agree with everything you have said, but the reality is the ATF targets people all of the time. They charge you with a crime, and you have to defend yourself to the tune of thousands of dollars. They have been doing this for DECADES.

Now we're in agreement! That's good.

Can we also agree that there's no 3 gun rule or any other published number that triggers a requirement to get an FFL to sell guns?

 

[westwall]

Now we're in agreement! That's good.

Can we also agree that there's no 3 gun rule or any other published number that triggers a requirement to get an FFL to sell guns?

There is no limit, but the ATF agents that visited my friend said that unless he was holding the guns for a year, they were considered inventory.

They told him 2 to 3 guns a year is fine. You feel free to buy and sell up a storm! Just have a good amount of cash set aside for your lawyer.

 

[Blues Man]

It won't stick, assuming that the guy has the resources to potentially go to the Supreme Court. Many who cannot afford the very best legal representation would go to prison.

irrelevant.

 

[woodwork201]

There is no limit, but the ATF agents that visited my friend said that unless he was holding the guns for a year, they were considered inventory.

They told him 2 to 3 guns a year is fine. You feel free to buy and sell up a storm! Just have a good amount of cash set aside for your lawyer.

So there's no book. And it's not 3 guns. We could have saved a lot of post count had you just told it that way from the beginning; you'd probably just got a lot of thanks count.

 

[woodwork201]

irrelevant.

Tell that to Bubba. You're absolutely right about the law and about the precedence but it is relevant that vague laws get people locked up.

People should always consider the risk and make the decisions and fight the battles they choose to fight. Just know the risks when you enter the battle.