Beretta Moves All Manufacturing Out of Md. After State Passes New Gun Bill

[JimBowie1958]

Because the 45 is going to put them on the ground with one shot almost anywhere.

With the 9mm y9ou better dump the whole damned clip in them and pray they aren't high.

I can aim so I never had a problem.

How many center of body shots would you put into a charging maniac with a knife if you have a 9mm?

With a 45 you just need one hit.

With a 9mm you need lots of hits.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Why is you .45 fanboys feel thee need to dump a load any chance you get? No one was having a caliber debate in this thread.

Because the 45 is going to put them on the ground with one shot almost anywhere.

With the 9mm y9ou better dump the whole damned clip in them and pray they aren't high.

nothing replaces good shooting skills

you really have two choices

either shoot them in the engine

or in

the computer

both are pretty much lights out

hollow point to the center of body will stop them every time using a 45.

the 9mm FMJ not so much, hardly at all

 

[JimBowie1958]

That diagram in mind, still 90% of lethality is placement of the shot with most sub.45 calibers.

With a 45 you have more discrimination available to you, that's all.

Talked to a cop who had been an MP in Saigon and a cop in Baltimore before he retired. He had seen first hand what a 9mm can do and a 45.

He had seen men walk away from several rounds in the torso from a 9mm, but never ever from a 45.

Now maybe you are a cool, accurate shooter if a big dude is coming at you with a big knife and can do that head shot with ease.

I would prefer to leave less to chance and aim center body. For that I want a 45.

Note also, that full metal jacket 9mm is the SUCK. No one even bothers to defend it any more. It goes straight through. FMJ 45 do not nearly so much, and you don't always have a choice about what ammo you have available, so with the 9mm you may wind up carrying FMJ instead of the better HP ammo in a bad situation, simply because logistics is not an easy thing and you often have to shoot what is available, not what you prefer.

45 FMJ rounds beat 9mm FMJ rounds hands down no contest. So why take that risk you could be only given FMJ in a bad situation and be stuck with that 9mm FMJ shyte?

 

[Politico]

Because the 45 is going to put them on the ground with one shot almost anywhere.

With the 9mm y9ou better dump the whole damned clip in them and pray they aren't high.

I can aim so I never had a problem.

How many center of body shots would you put into a charging maniac with a knife if you have a 9mm?

With a 45 you just need one hit.

With a 9mm you need lots of hits.

With all due respect I am not working from a what would you do if perspective like yourself. I put the number I was trained to regardless of caliber. Two and one to the head. Stopped them every time.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I can aim so I never had a problem.

How many center of body shots would you put into a charging maniac with a knife if you have a 9mm?

With a 45 you just need one hit.

With a 9mm you need lots of hits.

With all due respect I am not working from a what would you do if perspective like yourself. I put the number I was trained to regardless of caliber. Two and one to the head. Stopped them every time.

So with a 15 round mag, you have 5 potential take downs.

With a 13 round 45 mag, that is 13 take downs.

case closed, lol.

Seriously, shoot what makes you feel more confident. When the time is critical and doing what you have trained to do is going to kick in all by itself, shoot the 9mm if that is all you have trained with and feel comfortable with.

Accurate hits with a 9mm beats fumbling with a 45 every time.

 

[Politico]

No you don't have 13 take downs. Again no one with any training or real world experience would fire one shot at a target.

 

[JimBowie1958]

No you don't have 13 take downs. Again no one with any training or real world experience would fire one shot at a target.

That is how I was trained to get my CCW.

What if there's more zombies around? Might need to save that ammo.

 

[jon_berzerk]

No you don't have 13 take downs. Again no one with any training or real world experience would fire one shot at a target.

a 45 is no guarantee of a instant take down

in a news article yesterday

the bad guy clipped the girl next door three times

with a 45

she was able to get inside and phone the police

 

[Delta4Embassy]

That diagram in mind, still 90% of lethality is placement of the shot with most sub.45 calibers.

With a 45 you have more discrimination available to you, that's all.

Talked to a cop who had been an MP in Saigon and a cop in Baltimore before he retired. He had seen first hand what a 9mm can do and a 45.

He had seen men walk away from several rounds in the torso from a 9mm, but never ever from a 45.

Now maybe you are a cool, accurate shooter if a big dude is coming at you with a big knife and can do that head shot with ease.

I would prefer to leave less to chance and aim center body. For that I want a 45.

Note also, that full metal jacket 9mm is the SUCK. No one even bothers to defend it any more. It goes straight through. FMJ 45 do not nearly so much, and you don't always have a choice about what ammo you have available, so with the 9mm you may wind up carrying FMJ instead of the better HP ammo in a bad situation, simply because logistics is not an easy thing and you often have to shoot what is available, not what you prefer.

45 FMJ rounds beat 9mm FMJ rounds hands down no contest. So why take that risk you could be only given FMJ in a bad situation and be stuck with that 9mm FMJ shyte?

Tests in ballistic gelatin, and real-world statistics are almost completely incongruous. Most lethal caliber and round remains the .357 magnum 125 grain JHP @ ~97% one-shot stop effect.

.45 230 gr JHP Hydra-Shocks are below about 80%.

How bullets perform in gellatin almost never translates into real-world effectiveness.It's akin to the Hollywood myth of stabbing people with knives all they keel over dead or otherwise become combat-ineffective whereas in real-life people walk around with knives in them pretty much every time.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

"As a trauma surgeon and a tactical medical specialist, I am often asked by law enforcement officers what caliber and type of handgun ammunition offers the most stopping power. I can't answer that question. Let me explain why.
...

"I have seen a .22 caliber bullet completely incapacitate someone and a .45 ACP fail to achieve that result. People and animals shot with 10mm rounds and .357 SIG rounds have continued to run from the police. I have been on scene as a tactical medical provider when a suicidal person shot himself in the head with a .45 Colt round resulting in instant death. And I have seen the same results in suicides that used smaller calibers, including .22, .25, and .32. I have also seen people hit with 9mm, .40, and .45 without so much as staggering or slowing their verbal or physical activities."

This kind of testimony is common in police and security circles and is much more reliable than anything done to a block of gel.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I'll still take a super-hot-loaded hollow point in .44 Magnum...or something with even more steam than that...say, a .454 Casull.

 

[Geaux4it]

I was on the 9mm test committee for the Army when they decided to replace the M1911. We tested just about every model 9mm in all types of combat conditions. I can tell you with out a doubt that the decision to change and the company selected were due to politics and cronyism. A 3 star general visited our test site and asked me how the testing was going. I told him this was one of the stupidest decisions the Army ever made. He said we both know it but the decision was made way above our pay grades. A little history. At the turn of the last century we were fighting the Moro's in the Philippines. Our soldiers were issued a .38 at the time. The Moro's would be all drugged up when they attacked and the .38 was not stopping them. They begged for a better side arm. We sent the M1911. Not only did it stop them, it knocked them on their asses because it fired a big, slow, soft lead round that expanded on contact and you didn't need to hit a vital organ. The 9mm fires a hi speed round that will go through and through, not knock you down and will not kill unless it hits a vital organ. The only advantage I saw was that it has a 14 round magazine. One of the major factors Beretta was chosen was even though it is an Italian company, the Army's 9mm would be manufactured in Baltimore. I am still of the opinion it was a terrible decision. As a side note, I was also on the test committee when the Army replaced the LAAW with the AT-4. I did agree with that decision.

SIG clearly would ave been the better source. But as you say, its political.

The issue with the Beretta like the 92FS is the action, that rotation of the cylinder at times leads to a jamamatic.

-Geaux

 

[Bloodrock44]

I was on the 9mm test committee for the Army when they decided to replace the M1911. We tested just about every model 9mm in all types of combat conditions. I can tell you with out a doubt that the decision to change and the company selected were due to politics and cronyism. A 3 star general visited our test site and asked me how the testing was going. I told him this was one of the stupidest decisions the Army ever made. He said we both know it but the decision was made way above our pay grades. A little history. At the turn of the last century we were fighting the Moro's in the Philippines. Our soldiers were issued a .38 at the time. The Moro's would be all drugged up when they attacked and the .38 was not stopping them. They begged for a better side arm. We sent the M1911. Not only did it stop them, it knocked them on their asses because it fired a big, slow, soft lead round that expanded on contact and you didn't need to hit a vital organ. The 9mm fires a hi speed round that will go through and through, not knock you down and will not kill unless it hits a vital organ. The only advantage I saw was that it has a 14 round magazine. One of the major factors Beretta was chosen was even though it is an Italian company, the Army's 9mm would be manufactured in Baltimore. I am still of the opinion it was a terrible decision. As a side note, I was also on the test committee when the Army replaced the LAAW with the AT-4. I did agree with that decision.

Great input BR. If you're ever in the DFW area, PM me and drinks are on the house. I'd love to hear the full story with all the details on what was learned during the evaluations. I remember when that was going on. When the decision was announced, almost everyone I knew in the service said it smelled funny.

I recall the USMC stuck to their 1911s. I was in the USAF when the change happened. Aircrews at the time were using the S&W Model 15 in .38. A very accurate sidearm and easy to carry. Most everyone was happy moving to the Beretta 92 for the increased number of shots available. Most of us were hoping for the model Browning had in the running. Do you recall how it scored? All of us would have welcomed a 1911. (None of us were marching so the hell with weight!)

I never had trouble with the Beretta 92. It was relatively accurate and I could always throw a few extra mags in my survival vest. The little Beretta Tomcat is my summertime CC. But for traveling, home defense and wintertime carry, it's my 1911.

Congrats to Tennessee. Good jobs and tax revenue are always welcome. Better luck next time Maryland.

[MENTION=31703]williepete[/MENTION] I don't recall if we were even given results. Only that Beretta "won." My recollection was that it was hotter than hell at Ft. Benning and we had to fill out a tedious survey after every round fired answering questions such as weather conditions, standing kneeling or prone, single round, multiple rounds, etc. They were not interested in our opinions, just results. My brother Hossfly lives in the DFW area half the year and I plan to visit eventually. Will PM you when I do visit.

 

[JimBowie1958]

"As a trauma surgeon and a tactical medical specialist, I am often asked by law enforcement officers what caliber and type of handgun ammunition offers the most stopping power. I can't answer that question. Let me explain why.
...

"I have seen a .22 caliber bullet completely incapacitate someone and a .45 ACP fail to achieve that result. People and animals shot with 10mm rounds and .357 SIG rounds have continued to run from the police. I have been on scene as a tactical medical provider when a suicidal person shot himself in the head with a .45 Colt round resulting in instant death. And I have seen the same results in suicides that used smaller calibers, including .22, .25, and .32. I have also seen people hit with 9mm, .40, and .45 without so much as staggering or slowing their verbal or physical activities."

This kind of testimony is common in police and security circles and is much more reliable than anything done to a block of gel.

As I stated earlier, placement is 90% of take down. A shot to the brain will take down most targets if it spins around the inside of the skull, like a 22 LR round will tend to do. But shooting for the brain in a stressed condition is not an easy thing to do.

If you shoot center of body, you can miss a vital organ, even with secondary stretch crush cavity wound considered. Sometimes weird shit just happens. In any data set there are always outliers.

I was in the infantry for 5 years and have worked security in various capacities for another 5 years or so prior to finishing my degree. I met lots of people in those professions with lots of experience and NO ONE preferred the 9mm except a few women, literally. Why? EVERYONE of the sited the STOPPING POWER of the 45 ACP. A number liked the 357 a lot also, but said that they didn't like the wear on their hands and ears that firing a supersonic round daily would cause them. The 45 was easier to shoot and that meant more practice and a greater likelihood of hitting their target area.

I have owned .38, .357, 9 mm, .40 S&W, and a 45 ACP, and I like the way the 45 feels when I fire it. I also have no fear that when I shoot and hit the target center of mass that the loser will keep coming at me. I wont fir two then one to the head because I am not trying to kill them, I am trying to stop them. If they can live through it, fine.

The ballistics gel does not perfectly simulate the human body, that is true, but it a close approximation and it shows the dynamics of the rounds when they hit. Looking at what the 9mm does in gel does not make me feel good about it unless its a HP and you cant always guarantee you can get those.

So I choose the 45. IS it a perfect choice? No, and for others there might be better fits in gun characteristics.

But I have no doubt that when I shoot the dumbass in the sternum he will go down for the count, even if its a FMJ. I have heard too many say that they have made similar shots with a 9mm and the perp kept on going.

That's seals it for my choice; and obviously I cant choose for you. Only you have to live with that choice. When a bunch of politicians make deals to give our soldiers inferior weapons for the sake of politics and pork, though, that does chap my ass.

When they pick weapons, they should pick 100 Master Sergeants of the MOS's that would use them and let them vote on the matter, instead of leaving it to political whores

 

[JimBowie1958]

No you don't have 13 take downs. Again no one with any training or real world experience would fire one shot at a target.

a 45 is no guarantee of a instant take down

in a news article yesterday

the bad guy clipped the girl next door three times

with a 45

she was able to get inside and phone the police

Where did the dumbass loser perp hit the girl?

And more importantly, did she manage to shoot back and kill the piece of shyte?

 

[westwall]

Because the 45 is going to put them on the ground with one shot almost anywhere.

With the 9mm y9ou better dump the whole damned clip in them and pray they aren't high.

I can aim so I never had a problem.

How many center of body shots would you put into a charging maniac with a knife if you have a 9mm?

With a 45 you just need one hit.

With a 9mm you need lots of hits.

No, you don't. Even a shot in the heart will not stop some people. They will continue to fight till they bleed out internally. The only thing that's almost guaranteed to drop a bad guy is a hit to the brain.....not head, but brain. And that is well protected. All of this "one stop shot" horseshit is just that...horseshit.

Real world shootings consist of multiple shots fired, a PJ friend of mine said it best, "I don't expect any particular bullet to do any particular thing, I place the shot assess the situation and repeat as necessary."

 

[westwall]

No you don't have 13 take downs. Again no one with any training or real world experience would fire one shot at a target.

That is how I was trained to get my CCW.

What if there's more zombies around? Might need to save that ammo.

That's the problem. You fight the way you train. There are a lot of dead cops who are dead because they were following range procedures. The bad guys weren't.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

The 1911 is a great gun and I know many who carry it and most of em are vets. You can't beat the 1911.

Oh yes you can.

Gun Review: FNX-45 Tactical [P320 Entry] | The Truth About Guns

Shoot it one time and you'll never go back to a 1911. And you get fifteen rounds in the mag instead of eight.

 

[Ernie S.]

Berettas are not very good guns, IMHO.

Every one of them I've ever owned has jammed up way too much.

Never had my 92 jam. Got more than my share of slide bites when I fired multiple rounds quickly. I soured on them for years but am now considering a compact .40 cal.

 

[williepete]

I don't recall if we were even given results. Only that Beretta "won." My recollection was that it was hotter than hell at Ft. Benning and we had to fill out a tedious survey after every round fired answering questions such as weather conditions, standing kneeling or prone, single round, multiple rounds, etc. They were not interested in our opinions, just results. My brother Hossfly lives in the DFW area half the year and I plan to visit eventually. Will PM you when I do visit.

Thanks. After every round!? Sheesh. That's anal even for the Army. I'm very disappointed they weren't interested in the evaluators' likes, dislikes and opinions. That alone smells like the decision was already made.

Looking forward to picking your brain.