Bedouin Villages

[P F Tinmore]

They do not want to live in ready-made communities.

They want to take farmers and rancher out of their means of livelihood and move them into urban centers.

And do you think that is unethnical? Why or why not? What solutions do you propose?

Why don't we take all of the auto mechanics and move them to a city that has no cars?

Are you arguing that Israel should attempt to preserve their nomadic way of life?

How do you propose we do that? Do we just assign a large swath of desert and say -- "Here you go"? Is that not just putting them on a reservation? What happens when their population gets so large that the land can no longer sustain them? Or if their population gets so large that they are in constant conflict with the neighboring tribes? How do we address their need for water and electricity and sanitation? For education and medical care? Does providing those services ruin their nomadic way of life? If we provide these services for them in central locations, doesn't that just "urbanize" them? But it would be inhumane to deny them these services, yes?

Of course Israel is lying (nothing new here) about wanting to supply services. They just want to steal the land.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I watched the first half of that video. Its an emotional re-iterating of the same things I posted in the OP.

What is the solution?

Israel's settler colonialism is the problem. Getting rid of that is the only solution.

Translation: I have no interest in actually discussing the topic. I just want to point out that the Jews are the root of all evil and if they just went away the world would be better.

So, who is creating the problem and why?

 

[Shusha]

So, who is creating the problem and why?

We haven't even defined the problem yet. Is it a moral obligation to preserve the nomadic Bedouin's traditional way of life? Or is it morally imperative to provide them with the advantages of civilization?

 

[P F Tinmore]

So, who is creating the problem and why?

We haven't even defined the problem yet. Is it a moral obligation to preserve the nomadic Bedouin's traditional way of life? Or is it morally imperative to provide them with the advantages of civilization?

It is moral for Israel to stay the fuck out of people's lives.

 

[Shusha]

It is moral for Israel to stay the fuck out of people's lives.

You aren't even interested in having a discussion. All you have is a repetitive litany of variations of, "Israel (read: Jews) is evil." It is sobering to understand that opposition to Israel is not based on rational, objective arguments and opinions of the actual issues.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It is moral for Israel to stay the fuck out of people's lives.

You aren't even interested in having a discussion. All you have is a repetitive litany of variations of, "Israel (read: Jews) is evil." It is sobering to understand that opposition to Israel is not based on rational, objective arguments and opinions of the actual issues.

OK, let's be objective. Why does Israel always have to fuck with the Palestinians?

 

[Cellblock2429]

Decided to start a new thread since it has the potential to be an interesting discussion.

A quick overview of the topic, copied from the other thread:

There are 39 "unrecognized" Bedouin villages in the Negev region, comprising of ~70,000 people. (There are 6 villages which have been recognized). These villages represent locations where, in the past ~75 years, traditional, nomadic tribes have fallen into a more sedentary and localize agricultural lifestyle. The location of these villages is based on complex and competing tribal relationships as well as the result of the upheaval of the War of Independence. Some of those villages (including Umm al-Hiran in 1956) received government permission to settle on that land. The villages, however, were not considered or included in Israel's long-term land use strategy and planning. It may be that Israel's intent was to permit only temporary use of the land. This land is not "privately owned" by any citizen, and is State land. This is not land which is historically "ancestral" land in the sense often used by advocates in this conflict.

The issue is that this land does not fit into Israel's long-term urban planning schedule. Israel does not intend for this land to be traditional, local, agricultural subsistence-level farming. This conflict between urbanization and traditional farming communities is a common one all over the world. It is not primarily a conflict of ethnicities -- but a conflict of technology and civilization.

So what is Israel to do? First, it offered incentives -- each married couple and each single male over the age of 24 was offered legal ownership of a 800 sq m parcel of land in the nearby town of Hura with 100,000 NIS to build a house. Hura offered not only legal ownership of land and a home, but also water, electricity, and access to schools and medical services. The majority of the residents accepted this offer. The remaining ~700 residents refused.

But, there are problems with Hura. Unemployment is high. Housing is limited by physical space and there are families waiting to receive housing from the government (the Bedouin population''s fertility rate is so high the population doubles every 15 years). There are tribal and family conflicts.

The remaining residents of Umm al-Hiran have also been offered parcels of land within the new Hiran community to be built there. Those parcels are necessarily smaller than those in Hura, because the land parcels in Hiran are smaller universally.

The residents seem to be resisting this incorporation into the new Hiran community, near as I can tell. (As I said, it is difficult to get detailed, accurate information). The residents of Umm al-Hiran appear, at least to me, to want to maintain a semi-traditional, rural, agricultural subsistence farming-bound life. The ~700 residents want individual or communal ownership of the land they currently farm, and they will need enough land reserves to deal with a population which doubles ever 15 years.

Now, having said all that, there is a tendency in Israel to segregate Arab and Jewish communities. (No, don't go all apartheid on me -- its not that). There is an element of embedded, even institutionalized racism. It occurs on both sides. Its not much different than segregated communities which occur all over the world -- in the US, Canada, UK, Europe.

So what is Israel to do? What is the solution to this? Its a complex problem. Its a problem tackled by many countries in the past and still being addressed in many places today.

Its easy enough to say, "well, just give the 39 Bedouin villages recognition and land ownership within defined and official village boundaries, provide them with water, electricity, sanitation, education and medical facilities." And I wouldn't disagree with you. But be aware that this 'solution' presents a new host of problems. In the six villages which have been recognized, there is a problem with them growing outside their boundaries, building illegal houses there, taking over land which is not under their ownership. What does Israel do then?

Its a good discussion to have. This actually is one of the areas where people can legitimately criticize Israel. Be glad to have this debate with anyone willing to pursue it with integrity.

/---- Simply put, there is no hater like a Jew hater like you. Nuff said.

 

[rylah]

It is moral for Israel to stay the fuck out of people's lives.

You aren't even interested in having a discussion. All you have is a repetitive litany of variations of, "Israel (read: Jews) is evil." It is sobering to understand that opposition to Israel is not based on rational, objective arguments and opinions of the actual issues.

OK, let's be objective. Why does Israel always have to fuck with the Palestinians?

Good job!
Now a ask the same question as an adult - starting with a "HOW" or "WHEN" and try to mix some actual arguments in Your slogans.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It is moral for Israel to stay the fuck out of people's lives.

You aren't even interested in having a discussion. All you have is a repetitive litany of variations of, "Israel (read: Jews) is evil." It is sobering to understand that opposition to Israel is not based on rational, objective arguments and opinions of the actual issues.

OK, let's be objective. Why does Israel always have to fuck with the Palestinians?

Good job!
Now a ask the same question as an adult - starting with a "HOW" or "WHEN" and try to mix some actual arguments in Your slogans.

This is a hundred year old settler colonial project that continues today. Move the locals out and move the settlers in.

What is the solution?

 

[rylah]

It is moral for Israel to stay the fuck out of people's lives.

You aren't even interested in having a discussion. All you have is a repetitive litany of variations of, "Israel (read: Jews) is evil." It is sobering to understand that opposition to Israel is not based on rational, objective arguments and opinions of the actual issues.

OK, let's be objective. Why does Israel always have to fuck with the Palestinians?

Good job!
Now a ask the same question as an adult - starting with a "HOW" or "WHEN" and try to mix some actual arguments in Your slogans.

This is a hundred year old settler colonial project that continues today. Move the locals out and move the settlers in.

What is the solution?

Solution: SULHA

You can start by the use of appropriate language and direction of Your attention towards the solution. It's clearly evident that Your careful choice of specific narratives and lexicon are tactics that work in the opposite direction.

 

[Shusha]

/---- Simply put, there is no hater like a Jew hater like you. Nuff said.

? Me?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

/---- Simply put, there is no hater like a Jew hater like you. Nuff said.

? Me?

Tinmore.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, it appears to be the Bedouins are an estranged Israeli Community. And I'm not sure that all Bedouins have the same wants and needs.

They do not want to live in ready-made communities.

They want to take farmers and rancher out of their means of livelihood and move them into urban centers.

And do you think that is unethnical? Why or why not? What solutions do you propose?

Why don't we take all of the auto mechanics and move them to a city that has no cars?

Are you arguing that Israel should attempt to preserve their nomadic way of life?
How do you propose we do that? Do we just assign a large swath of desert and say -- "Here you go"? Is that not just putting them on a reservation? What happens when their population gets so large that the land can no longer sustain them? Or if their population gets so large that they are in constant conflict with the neighboring tribes? How do we address their need for water and electricity and sanitation? For education and medical care? Does providing those services ruin their nomadic way of life? If we provide these services for them in central locations, doesn't that just "urbanize" them? But it would be inhumane to deny them these services, yes?

Of course Israel is lying (nothing new here) about wanting to supply services. They just want to steal the land.

(COMMENT)

The Bedouin issues IS NOT (in my opinion) linked to the Arab-Israeli Conflict or the greater Palestinian issue.

The Bedouins are Israeli Citizens of a different kind; yet, they are a segment of the population that needs special attention. The Committee for the Advancement of Bedouin Affairs (CABA) needs to be encouraged to advocate more for the Bedouin and establish a more beneficial dialog between the mainstream Israeli and the Bedouin community. The CABA needs to empowered to submit (on behalf of Bedouins) independent infrastructure and (Bedouin unique) quality of life projects for funding.

Israel will eventually bring infrastructure services to the Bedouin, as opposed to moving the Bedouin to the service lines and conduits. It must be a little more lenient in the treatment and dealings of the Bedouin and begin the specific inclusion of the Bedouin in future planned area development.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Picaro]

I find it the premise that Israel's tiny little sliver of land is the reason Bedouins are having problems absurd. Israel isn't the cause of the Bedouins' vastly reduced range of wandering. Yet it is the only country in the ME and North Africa that even cares enough to at least study the issue. The root pf the problems lie elsewhere, so ask the same questions from those peoples and countries. We do, however, know why the poster of the OP won't go there in this thread.

 

[Shusha]

We do, however, know why the poster of the OP won't go there in this thread.

We do? Do tell.

 

[Shusha]

The Bedouin issues IS NOT (in my opinion) linked to the Arab-Israeli Conflict or the greater Palestinian issue.

We agree.

The Bedouins are Israeli Citizens of a different kind; yet, they are a segment of the population that needs special attention. The Committee for the Advancement of Bedouin Affairs (CABA) needs to be encouraged to advocate more for the Bedouin and establish a more beneficial dialog between the mainstream Israeli and the Bedouin community. The CABA needs to empowered to submit (on behalf of Bedouins) independent infrastructure and (Bedouin unique) quality of life projects for funding.

We agree.

It must be a little more lenient in the treatment and dealings of the Bedouin and begin the specific inclusion of the Bedouin in future planned area development.

We agree.

I think it is unrealistic to expect the traditional Bedouin ways to be preserved. (Though I think Israel should work very hard to preserve their intangible cultural heritage, as she is obligated to do.) Further, I think there is a lack of humanity if we insist upon it. It would be inhumane to insist that tribal traditions take precedence over things like water, electricity, sanitation, education and medical care.

That said, it is also unrealistic to forcibly relocate and urbanize them. The solution has to be an multi-generational, gradual process. It must be a process which dignifies them.

And that said, I'm not sure, practically, how to suggest it be carried out. It would involve their input, for certain. It would involve respecting either their wish to be relocated or their wish to stay where they have migrated to and put down roots. It would involve providing services. It would probably involve an exposure to nearby urban centers, either existing or newly created. It would involve empowerment, rather than welfare payments.

But all THAT said, I think we should be on guard for having this turned into another opportunity to demonize Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Bedouin issues IS NOT (in my opinion) linked to the Arab-Israeli Conflict or the greater Palestinian issue.

It is. It is the same settler colonial policies that Israel has always used.

Move the Palestinians out. Move the settlers in.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It would be inhumane to insist that tribal traditions take precedence over things like water, electricity, sanitation, education and medical care.

When the Bedouins build a school, Israel bulldozes it.

When the Bedouins build a water system, Israel bulldozes it.

When the Bedouins build an electric system, Israel bulldozes it.

It does not look like Israel is interested in modern services for the Bedouins.

 

[Shusha]

It would be inhumane to insist that tribal traditions take precedence over things like water, electricity, sanitation, education and medical care.

When the Bedouins build a school, Israel bulldozes it.

When the Bedouins build a water system, Israel bulldozes it.

When the Bedouins build an electric system, Israel bulldozes it.

It does not look like Israel is interested in modern services for the Bedouins.

So you agree that the Bedouin are actively invested in ending their traditional way of life, then? And we are just disagreeing on whether or not they should obey the laws of the State they are living in. You say they should not be required to obey such laws. And I say they should.

 

[montelatici]

In this, one cannot fault Israel any more than other states that host the original Arabians that have maintained their original lifestyle. In Saudi Arabia they are accorded special treatment as the Sauds consider them the original Arabians. I had occasion to live with Bedouins for a few weeks when I was stationed in Saudi Arabia with the U.S. Army. Our engineering company was dispatched to the northeast of Jeddah to repair wells, pumping stations and pipe that had been damaged by heavy rains and we were camped at a Bedouin oasis. We often ate roast goat and rice in their tents in the evenings. Very generous and hospitable people. We reciprocated by inviting them to our field mess, no pork, of course! The Saudis were very afraid that Jeddah would be without water, and it was already a big city, probably at least a million people at the time. The most interesting thing was that a dead river called Wadi Khulais became a real river again after who knows how many centuries and there were fish in the river! I saw them. I asked about this and a biologist at the embassy told me that they were eggs that hatched that could have been dormant for 100s of years.