Atheist Summer Camp

[Old Rocks]

Interesting thread.

Just to throw a monkey wrench for all. I have been active in Scouting for nearly 40 years. I am an agnostic. Which simply means that I do not personally know if a Diety exists or not, and certainly have no idea what said Diety would want for humanity.

However, I firmly believe in the Scouting precept of respect for all beliefs, and, also, the same for a lack of belief. A moral code is neccessary for all of us. Those lacking such a code bring grief on themselves and those arround them. We have seen that in the financial and physical disasters in the last few years. The moral code that Scouting teaches is a good one. The activities that are encouraged teach both independance and the neccessity of teamwork.

Many of the people I know in Scouting are also agnostic, some even athiest, but do not advertise it, or express it by denigration of others beliefs. And most are some religion, LDS, Catholic, Jew, or Baptist. None of that matters, what is important is that the next generation develops a strong moral sense, and an appreciation of this great universe with live in, a reverance for all life.

 

[chanel]

Thank you Old Rocks.

 

[kwc57]

You are wrong about the Boy Scouts. I was a cub scout and a boy scout and have seen the indoctrination towards accepting christianity and rejecting any other concept. The camping and skills were interesting but the preaching was stifling. I already lived in wilderness camping, hunting and fishing on my own so I quit just before the transition to Eagle Scout where the indoctrination was even more intense. Scouting was more about accepting authority than learning personal skills and values.

As an Assistant Scoutmaster, I have to call BS on some of what you said. The BSA at the national level has their joining requirements for youth and adults that you can consider the minimum joining requirements. Local councils grant a charter to a chartering organization which could be anything from a school to a church to the local VFW or Masonic Lodge, etc. These chartering organizations can have additional joining requirements. For instance, a Catholic church can charter a Pack or Troop and restrict membership to their church members or to only Catholics. A school can limit their membership to only their students. A charter grants an organization to use the scouting program as part of their overall outreach in the community. So, the church that charters a Scout Troop can say that the Troop must have a worship service on the Sunday morning of a campout and that it must be a Christian evangelical service. Most troops I know are chartered by churches, but they are open troops and the church does not restrict membership or dictate program. A few do.

Any youth or their parent can vote with their feet and shop the market. There are 11 districts in my council and 25 troops in my district which covers only a portion of Oklahoma City. If you don't like the way one troop operates in my district, you have 24 others to visit and join. In the metro area, there are probably at least another 50.

Religious indoctrination in scouting is determined by the chartering organization pure and simple and most don't go in that direction. My troop has been chartered by a United Methodist church for the last 45 years. We have white, black, asian and hispanic kids. Most are evangelical Christians, but we do have Catholics, a Jew and a Muslim. Our "services" when wee have them are about 5 minutes in length and totally non-sectarian. They are put together by the boys and not adults. When we say grace, we simply say amen at the end instead of "in Jesus name".

Scouting has nothing to do with accepting authority. The mission of the BSA is, "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." The vision of the BSA is, "The Boy Scouts of America will prepare every eligible youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law." This is done using the patrol method in the outdoors. We teach boys how to become independent and leaders, not to "accept authority".

And you don't transition to Eagle. You earn it. Only about 5% of Scouts ever attain the Eagle rank.

Go **** yourself ya pompus ******. Going from boy scout to eagle scout is a transition just like going to college is a transition. Get over yourself.. I don't need a queer like you to interpret something I personally experienced. Keep in mind ya NAMBLA *****...I was in the scouts from 1956 till 1962. and in Indian Guides before that. That was probably before you were born and before your leering at young boys even started.

Well Jackwagon, I'll take that as a, "I got nothing, so I'll just be a major ass and attempt to impress the ladies with my tough guy act" post. You seem to operate under the mistaken impression that anybody gives a rat's ass about your 50 year old childhood recollections of scouting. Let me give you a small hint, it's 2010 Methuselah, not 1956. Guess what.....we have remote controls for hundreds of channels on TV now and you don't have to send your kid across the room to flip a dial between three channels anymore. Perhaps you can get Gunny to start a forum for you called Hug-Grump's I Remember Way Back When Zone and you can talk about buggy whips, sock hops and soda shops.

For what it's worth, I was a scout from 1963 thru 1968, so I wasn't that far behind you.......and my experience was way different from yours. What I presented was factual information of how scouting works in 2010 for those debating current events, not history.

As far as your 12 year old tough guy insults, meh. Not impressed. Keep working on your delivery. But I will give you this participation award for showing up.

View attachment 10733

 

[kwc57]

Because even atheists like to camp, canoe and learn to tie knots.

I honestly cannot see why the BSA would deny someone because they don't believe but then again I never realized the BSA was a quasi-religious organization.

I have to agree with you here.

Just because someone does not agree with you, is not a reason to exclude them. What better way than to include them and make them a friend?

They may not agree with you when they start and they may never change their point of view, but they will most likely become your friend and respect you in the long run.

Immie

Yep...and in matters of religion, why punish children because no adult has started an atheist version of the Scouts? Or even because children have atheist parents...there is no real guarantee that the children of atheists will remain atheists.

Problem solved. Welcome | SpiralScouts International is for anyone and everyone. It isn't atheist. It is Wiccan, but they are all inclusive.

 

[Sky Dancer]

There is also no guarantee that children of Christians will remain Christians.

That, too.

So why punish kids? I just don't get it.

Becuase the bible tells us to raise them up in the ways of righteousness and they will not depart from them or somesuch programming hoopla.

A Buddhist sees it differently.

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrow-mindedness."

Thich Nhat Hanh, Zen Buddhist

 

[uscitizen]

Just because as a child you have a bad experience with a misguided human, don't put the blame on God, put it where it belongs on the human.

If you do not believe in god, it is impossible to blame god for anything.

Yep we atheists have to be by definition much more personally responsible than Christians are.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Just because as a child you have a bad experience with a misguided human, don't put the blame on God, put it where it belongs on the human.

If you do not believe in god, it is impossible to blame god for anything.

Yep we atheists have to be by definition much more personally responsible than Christians are.

Atheists do the right thing for the sake of it.... not because it gets them into heaven or they fear hell. One could make the argument that atheists are morally superior.

 

[Father Time]

Atheism has got to be the least tolerant of all religions. And it is a religion.

Comments?

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Atheism has no rules for dealing with people of other faiths or even with other atheists. They can be as tolerant (or not) as they want to and it won't violate any rules.

Oh and if atheism is a religion then bald is a hair style.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Atheism has got to be the least tolerant of all religions. And it is a religion.

Comments?

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Atheism has rules for dealing with people of other faiths or even with other atheists. They can be as tolerant (or not) as they want to and it won't violate any rules.

Oh and if atheism is a religion than bald is a hair style.

I take exception to that bald is a hair style. Shaving your head is hip.

 

[froggy]

If you do not believe in god, it is impossible to blame god for anything.

Yep we atheists have to be by definition much more personally responsible than Christians are.

Atheists do the right thing for the sake of it.... not because it gets them into heaven or they fear hell. One could make the argument that atheists are morally superior.

Abusing children is not the right thing, let them have a bible as they grow up and don't sway them one way or the other.

 

[uscitizen]

Yep we atheists have to be by definition much more personally responsible than Christians are.

Atheists do the right thing for the sake of it.... not because it gets them into heaven or they fear hell. One could make the argument that atheists are morally superior.

Abusing children is not the right thing, let them have a bible as they grow up and don't sway them one way or the other.

why bring the Catholics into this?

 

[froggy]

Atheists do the right thing for the sake of it.... not because it gets them into heaven or they fear hell. One could make the argument that atheists are morally superior.

Abusing children is not the right thing, let them have a bible as they grow up and don't sway them one way or the other.

why bring the Catholics into this?

Is Catholic a religion?

 

[uscitizen]

Abusing children is not the right thing, let them have a bible as they grow up and don't sway them one way or the other.

why bring the Catholics into this?

Is Catholic a religion?

Catholicism (sp?) is a religion.

 

[froggy]

why bring the Catholics into this?

Is Catholic a religion?

Catholicism (sp?) is a religion.

I thought it was the Romans way of getting control of the masses after the crucifixion of Christ.

 

[uscitizen]

Is Catholic a religion?

Catholicism (sp?) is a religion.

I thought it was the Romans way of getting control of the masses after the crucifixion of Christ.

yes that too

Wasn't it constantine that gave us our current bible that all Christian based religions follow?
Got rid of that assortment of Jesus cults.
And yes all religions start as cults.
Jesus was a cult leader.

 

[rikules]

If you do not believe in god, it is impossible to blame god for anything.

Yep we atheists have to be by definition much more personally responsible than Christians are.

Atheists do the right thing for the sake of it.... not because it gets them into heaven or they fear hell. One could make the argument that atheists are morally superior.

absolutely!

I WOULD make that case.

in fact
I would go so far as to state;

atheists figure out what the right thing is and then do it just because it is the right thing.

while religious people are TOLD by other religious people what is RIGHT or WRONG and then they react accordingly with the hope that they will be rewarded for it...

"killing gays will get me to heaven?

ok...

stoning women who have sex outside of heaven will get me to heaven?

no problem...

i'll commit any act of atrocity god tells me to just so I get rewarded with heaven.."

 

[Sky Dancer]

"So, onto the 10 reasons atheists are morally superior, in no particular order, and my personal opinion about each one:

1.No god tells me to hate gay people, so I have no reason to hate them. In fact I think if gay people love each other and want to get married, more power to them. Why should we stop love and caring based on gender? I encourage loving and caring any way it manifests itself.

2.No god tells me that women are inferior and should subject themselves to men. So I’m equal to a man. Except getting spiders out of the house. He can be superior to me in that department. Oh, and opening jars. He can have that one too.

3.No god tells me to pray instead of seeking medical attention. I believe in all kinds of scientific research and medicine. I even believe in stem cell research. I also think a woman has a right to choose what to do with her body. This probably goes up under the ‘women are equal’ entry as well, because I think it’s ridiculous that an old man I will never meet gets to decide what I can and can’t do with my body. Oh, and euthanasia should be considered an option, although it would have to be properly done so that no one gets murdered. But come on, if life is so freaking precious, why make some sick and dying person go through agony and humiliation and endure countless medical procedures just to stay alive? That’s insane. Oh! And the death penalty is a great idea. We should use it more for heinous criminals. Definitely.

4.No god tells me to hate people who believe in the same god but in a “wrong” way. Ok, that’s just stupid. At thanksgiving dinner my cousin was harassed by the fundamentalist methodists there because she went to 3 different bible camps from 3 different churches. She said, it’s all the same god, why does it bother you so much? I had to agree with her. They’re so hateful and ignorant.

5.No god tells me to be fruitful and multiply, then says that sex for fun is bad, then tells me that only sex between married people is ok, then denies me any kind of way to turn off my insatiable teenage sex drive except to come up with abstinence and praying as a lame solution. Which means that I am all for teaching teenagers and anyone who might think of sex how to be safe and protected. Nothing is more dangerous than ignorance. Proper education and access to prophylactics are real ways to reduce teen pregnancy and the spread of STD’s. Also, as noted above, I also believe that mistakes happen, and so do horrible crimes against women. The morning after pill should be available to girls and women who need them to avoid unwanted pregnancies, and abortions, while not the ideal solution, should be legal and safe. Sometimes they are necessary, and a woman or girl shouldn’t be bullied or forced into carrying a baby to term. Oh, and back to the ‘be fruitful and multiply thing’. I didn’t even have to have kids in the first place because I’m strong enough in myself that I don’t need some namesake to carry on for me or continue to overpopulate the planet simply because a god said I had to, thousands of years ago. Or worse, I am not starving in some third world country, having babies one after the other for my whole short life because the christians forced their god on me long ago and imposed their ridiculous rules and told us stupid lies.

6.No god tells me to hate people who look different than me, so I am free to see everyone as equal and the same, just with different packaging. No need to be racist. (Oh, yeah, Hitler was religious. So don’t even bother with that one, christians. He’s yours, not ours.)

7.No god tells me to start a war over another land having the wrong god or the wrong types of people (see the one above), so I don’t have to support pointless wars that justify some ridiculous ancient prophecy or for other silly reasons, like god talking directly to the leader of my country. (Don’t even get me started on how scary that is. At least he’s gone now!)

8.No god makes promises to me about being a martyr, so I have no reason to strap a bomb to myself and blow up a train station or whatever kills the most innocent people.

9.No god makes open-ended promises that will never come true about armageddon and going up to heaven soon, so I am responsible about the environment, and try my best to have a small impact on the planet, and also support research into making things better for everyone through science and smarter living.

10.No god promises eternal life to me, so I understand that this life is precious. I take personal responsibility seriously, and I live my life the best way I can because it’s the only one I’ve got. I value the lives of others too, for the same reason. Which is why I believe in the death penalty as I stated above. If you are a heinous person that has murdered, or other reprehensible crimes which would require you to be imprisoned for the rest of your life, I think you should be put to death quickly after a fair trial. No *****-footing around. Because you don’t deserve life, and you’ve destroyed the lives of others. There’s no fix for you. So why the hell should we take better care of you when you showed no regard for the victims of your psychopathy? That’s crazy."
10 Reasons Atheists Are Morally Superior To Religious Fundamentalists | Heaving Dead Cats

I just found this and thought it was interesting.

 

[Father Time]

Atheism has got to be the least tolerant of all religions. And it is a religion.

Comments?

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Atheism has rules for dealing with people of other faiths or even with other atheists. They can be as tolerant (or not) as they want to and it won't violate any rules.

Oh and if atheism is a religion than bald is a hair style.

I take exception to that bald is a hair style. Shaving your head is hip.

Ok then how about:

not collecting stamps is a hobby.

 

[Father Time]

"So, onto the 10 reasons atheists are morally superior,

I take issue with this too.

Atheists can be as immoral as you please. Those who wish to do bad things could probably find a way to justify it without a god.

Of course there are always the theists who think their God wants them to do something they consider immoral but I doubt they have large numbers.

 

[Sky Dancer]

"So, onto the 10 reasons atheists are morally superior,

I take issue with this too.

Atheists can be as immoral as you please. Those who wish to do bad things could probably find a way to justify it without a god.

Of course there are always the theists who think their God wants them to do something they consider immoral but I doubt they have large numbers.

Good points.