Shocking!!! The military investigated itself over war crime allegations and found out no war crimes occurred in Vietnam by any US troops. Even in the case of soldiers, confessing crimes. The military said they didn't do nothin' wrong.WinterSoldier.com - Army CID Investigations of VVAW War Crimes Allegations
In April 1971, Sen. Mark Hatfield placed transcripts from the Vietnam Veterans Against the War's "Winter Soldier Investigation" (WSI) war crimes conference into the Congressional Record. The House Committee on Armed Services responded by directing the Department of Defense to conduct a prompt review of the VVAW's allegations.
The Army's Criminal Investigation Division (CID) opened a case for each witness who claimed to have knowledge of criminal actions by the Army. These cases are described below, with links to the actual Army summary reports.
Note: Personal information and the names of non-VVAW witnesses have been redacted from the summary reports.
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The following are Army WSI witnesses investigated by the CID:
Note: Cases 1, 11, 19, 32 and 40 cover allegations made outside WSI by witnesses who also made WSI statements.
1. Beitzel, John, 21, Sgt. (E-5), 4/21, 11th Brigade, Americal Division (January 1969 to January 1970).
Allegation: 1) Indiscriminate firing upon unarmed Vietnamese, 2) Torture and maltreatment of prisoners/detainees, 3) Mutilation of dead bodies.
Investigation summary: Complainants Beitzel and Joseph Brenman refused to provide specific information to support their allegations, which were made in a venue other than WSI, but are basically the same. Joe Bangert (USMC) and Jeffrey Dubrow (USN) accompanied Beitzel and Brenman at the subject venue.
Result: Investigation terminated; insufficient evidence.
John Beitzel / Joseph Brenman CID Investigation Report
2. Bernath, Fred, 26, 1st Lt., 101st MP Co., 101st Airborne Division (December 1968 to October 1969).
Allegation: 1) Electrical torture of prisoners/detainees, 2) Gassing of civilians.
Investigation summary: Complainant submitted a sworn statement supporting his WSI claims, but was unable to identify any of the individuals involved or the date of the incident. He did name a possible witness who subsequently submitted a sworn statement denying any knowledge of the events alleged by Bernath.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Fred Bernath CID Investigation Report
3. Bunge, Sam, 1st Lt., "B" Co., 3/187, 101st Airborne Division (July 1968 to June 1969).
Allegation: 1) Attempted murder of Vietnamese male, 2) Desecration of graves, 3) Gassing of Vietnamese civilians.
Investigation summary: Complainant repeated WSI claims but refused to sign a written statement. He provided names of possible witnesses but did not name any of those allegedly involved, including his former commanding officer. Interviews with former members of Bunge's unit and his former commanding officers revealed no evidence that supported the allegations.
Result: Investigation completed; supplemental investigative efforts completed; unfounded.
Sam Bunge CID Investigation Report
4. Butts, Dennis, 24, SP/4 (E-4), HHQ Co., 2/12, 25th Infantry Division and "E" Co., 4/39, 9th Infantry Division (September 1966 to September 1967).
Allegation: 1) Indiscriminate killing and wounding of Vietnamese civilians, 2) Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to cooperate without immunity on advice of VVAW counsel.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Dennis Butts CID Investigation Report
5. Byrne, Kevin, 21, Sgt. (E-5), 42nd Scout Dog, 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne Division (November 1968 to November 1969).
Allegation: 1) Attempted murder of an NVA officer, 2) Failure to render medical treatment, 3) Indiscriminate use of fire power, 4) Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to answer questions or provide further information for fear of "causing trouble for the peons instead of the generals."
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Kevin Byrne CID Investigation Report
6. Caldwell, Dennis, 24, CWO-2, "A" Trp., 3/17, Air Cav., 1st Aviation Brigade (October 1968 to October 1969).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese, 2) Indiscriminate use of fire power, 3) Indiscriminate destruction of villages, 4) Gassing (tear gas) of civilians and livestock, 5) Aggravated assault on a prisoner.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to answer any questions or provide further information.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Dennis Caldwell CID Investigation Report
7. Chiles, David, 24, SP/4 (E-4), 3/4, 25th Infantry Division (January 1968 to December 1968).
Allegation: 1) Mutilation of enemy corpse, 2) Indiscriminate killing of two Vietnamese children and an elderly Vietnamese man.
Investigation summary: Counsel present at interview. Complainant declined to provide any substantive information, saying he would testify only before a Congressional Committee.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
David Chiles CID Investigation Report
8. Craig, Douglas, 22, SP/4, "D" Co., 2nd Bn., 8th Brigade, 1st Air Cav. Division (December 1968 to August 1969).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese.
Investigation summary: Complainant stated that he had no direct information that civilians were killed and no direct knowledge of the alleged event. He further stated that he had misgivings about testifying at Detroit, as he could not substantiate the allegations.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Douglas Craig CID Investigation Report
9. Craig, Larry, 29, SP/4, Public Information Office, 25th Infantry Division (1966 to 1967).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified prisoner, 2) Desecration of a grave.
Investigation summary: Complainant backtracked on his WSI testimony and was unable to provide specific information or identify any U.S or Vietnamese personnel.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Larry Craig CID Investigation Report
10. Donner, Donald, 24, SP/4 (E-4), 20th Brigade, 86th Combat Engineers (August 1967 to July 1968).
Allegation: 1) Murder of a Vietnamese male, 2) Wounding of a 14-year-old Vietnamese girl, 3) Dereliction in the performance of duty, 4) Indiscriminate killing of livestock, 5) Failure to bury enemy dead.
Investigation summary: Complainant characterized the alleged incidents as accidental, misrepresented by him at WSI, or known to him only by hearsay.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Donald Donner CID Investigation Report
11. Drolshagen, Jon, 26, 1st Lt., 25th Infantry Division (1966 to 1967).
Allegation: 1) Murder and torture of unknown Vietnamese nationals.
Investigation summary: CID statement refers to allegations made in different venue, six months prior to WSI, by Drolshagen, Edward Barbour (former SP4, 101st Airborne Division) and Frederick Morton (former E5, 11th Armed Cavalry Regiment). Subjects refused to make written statements or to answer questions concerning their allegations.
Result: Investigation completed; case closed.
Note: Drolshagen's statement at WSI was considerably less specific than his earlier allegation that a major had committed torture and murder. At WSI, Drolshagen spoke vaguely of a major's participation in unspecified activities.
Edward Barbour / Jon Drolshagen / Frederick Morton CID Investigation Report
12. Duffy, James, 23, SP/5 (E-5), 228 Aviation Bn., 1st Air Cav. Division (February 1967 to April 1968).
Allegation: 1) Negligent homicide of unidentified Vietnamese child, 2) Maltreatment of prisoners, 3) Assault, 4) Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Investigators were unable to contact complainant.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
James Duffy CID Investigation Report
13. Dzagulones, Don, 23, SP/5, 635th Military Intelligence Detachment, attached to 11th Infantry Brigade, Americal Division (January 1969 to December 1969).
Allegation: 1) Torture and assault of prisoners / VC suspects.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to answer any questions. Investigators were unable to identify the unidentified major referred to in the allegations.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Don Dzagulones CID Investigation Report
14. Erard, Michael, 29, SP/5 (E-5), 3/503, 173rd Airborne Brigade (April 1969 to March 1970).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese civilians, 2) Failure to take prisoners.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to make any statement or provide any information.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Michael Erard CID Investigation Report
15. Farrell, Michael, 24, SP/4 (E-4), "A" Co., 2/60, 9th Infantry Division (January 1967 to January 1968).
Allegation: 1) Murder of a Vietnamese child, 2) Maltreatment of a prisoner, 3) Destruction of crops and livestock.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to make any statements or provide any information on advice of attorney.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Michael Farrell CID Investigation Report
16. Galbally, Joe, 23, SP/4 (E-4), 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division (October 1967 to April 1968).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese, 2) Rape, 3) Assault.
Investigation summary: Efforts to locate complainant were unsuccessful.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Joe Galbally CID Investigation Report
17. Hagelin, Timon, 21, SP/4 (E-4), Graves Registration Platoon, 243 Field Serv. Co., 1st Logistics Command (August 1968 to August 1969).
Allegation: 1) Assault of unidentified Vietnamese civilians.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to answer any questions.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Timon Hagelin CID Investigation Report
18. Hartner, John, 26, Sgt. (E-5), H & HD 3rd Brigade, H & HD 2nd Brigade, 4th Infantry Division (November 1969 to August 1970).
Allegation: 1) Murder of a Vietnamese baby, 2) Wounding of three Vietnamese women, 3) Suppression of the above information.
Investigation summary: In a sworn statement, complainant refused to provide any information.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
John Hartner CID Investigation Report
19. Henry, James, 23, Sgt., 1st Bn., 3/35th, 4th Infantry Division (August 1967 to August 1968).
Allegation: 1) Murder, 2) Rape, 3) Maltreatment of unidentified Vietnamese.
Investigation summary: Complainant submitted a sworn statement. An extensive investigation failed to reveal sufficient evidence to prove or disprove the allegations. Subsequent supplementary investigative efforts revealed that a group of unarmed civilians may in fact have been killed by members of Company B, 1/35th Infantry on February 8, 1968. That investigation was ongoing at the time of this report.
Result: Investigation completed; supplemental investigation in progress.
Note: The CID statement refers to allegations made in several different venues a year prior to WSI, and repeated there. See also Civilian Killings Went Unpunished, Los Angeles Times, August 6, 2006. This is the only known WSI allegation for which there is substantiation.
James Henry CID Investigation Report
20. Henry, John, 26, SP/4, 2/60, 1/11 Artillery, 9th Infantry Division (March 1968 to February 1969).
Allegation: 1) Maltreatment of prisoners and Vietnamese civilians, 2) Destruction of livestock and private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant could not be located.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
John Henry CID Investigation Report
21. Hunter, Michael, 24, Sgt (E-5), "B" Co., 5/7 Air Cav. Reg., 1st Air Cav. Division (February 1968 to February 1969); "H" Co., 75th Rangers, attached to 1st Air Cav. Div.; "I" Co., 75th Rangers, attached to 1st Inf. Division (September 1969 to March 1970).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese, 2) Mutilation of corpses, 3) Desecration of graves and destruction of private property, 4) Rape, 5) Refusing to render medical aid, 6) Gassing of Vietnamese civilians (tear gas).
Investigation summary: Complainant admitted his own offenses orally but would not make a written statement or provide times, dates or names. Numerous former members of Hunter's unit denied his allegations. One witness said that Hunter had killed a Vietnamese man without orders while walking point on a patrol.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Michael Hunter CID Investigation Report
22. Keyes, Gary, 22, SP/4, "E" Troop, 1st Cav. Reg., 11th Brigade, Americal Division (April 1969 to March 1970).
Allegation: 1) Gassing of villages, 2) Aggravated assault, 3 Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to answer any questions.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Gary Keyes CID Investigation Report
23. Keys, Eugene, 25, SP/4 (E-4), 3/4 25th Infantry Division (February 1966 to February 1967).
Allegation: 1) Forced evacuation of Vietnamese villages, 2) Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant said he would only make a statement to a joint session of Congress.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Eugene Keys CID Investigation Report
24. Kogut, Russell, 22, WO-1, 155 Assault Helicopter Co. (May 1968 to March 1969).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese, 2) Aggravated assault, 3) Looting and destruction of private property, 4) Forced evacuation of Vietnamese villages.
Investigation summary: Complainant said a VVAW staffer told him that VVAW's lawyers advised him not to make any statement.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Russell Kogut CID Investigation Report
25. Lenix, Mark, 24, 1st Lt., 1/11th Arty. and 2/39 Infantry, 9th Infantry Division (1968 to 1969).
Allegation: 1) Murder of prisoners and unidentified Vietnamese, 2) Indiscriminate use of fire power, 3) Looting and destruction of private property, 4) Forced evacuation of Vietnamese civilians.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to provide any information concerning his allegations.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Mark Lenix CID Investigation Report
26. Lloyd, Murphy, 27, Sgt. (E-5), "D" Co., 4th Bn., 173 Airborne Brigade (February 1967 to February 1968).
Allegation: 1) Murder of prisoners, 2) Torture and maiming of prisoners.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to answer any questions on advice of lawyer.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Murphy Lloyd CID Investigation Report
27. Lytle, John, 24, SP/4 (E-4), "E" Co., 6/15 Arty., 1st Infantry Division (August 1967 to March 1969).
Allegation: 1) Indiscriminate use of fire power, 2) Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant backtracked on his WSI allegation that villages were targeted indiscriminately, saying that the villages were fired on because it was suspected that VC occupied them and because incoming fire had been received. Lytle was unable to identify any personnel involved or name specific incidents.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
John Lytle CID Investigation Report
28. MacKay, James, 20, Sgt. (E-5), HHQ 3rd Brigade, 9th Inf. Div. (October 1968 to August 1970).
Allegation: 1) Murder of Vietnamese civilians, 2) Maltreatment of enemy dead, 3) Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant could not be located.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
James MacKay CID Investigation Report
29. Mallory, John, 24, Captain, 1st Sq., 11th Arm. Cav. Reg., 1st Air Cav. Division (May 1969 to May 1970).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese, 2) Desecration of enemy graves, 3) Aggravated assault, 4) Larceny and destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to provide any specific information or identify any of the persons allegedly involved. He said he and the VVAW were only interested in initiating a Congressional investigation into U.S. policy in Vietnam.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
John Mallory CID Investigation Report
30. McConnachie, Robert, 22, Sgt. (E-5), 2/28th, 1st Infantry (October 1967 to October 1968).
Allegation: 1) Involuntary manslaughter of unidentified Vietnamese civilians, 2) Indiscriminate use of fire power.
Investigation summary: Complainant backtracked on his WSI allegations, saying that no Vietnamese children were actually killed by troops throwing C-ration cans at them. He also said he now believed that the alleged killing of civilians in a hospital by artillery fire was accidental.
Result: Investigation completed; unsubstantiated.
Robert McConnachie CID Investigation Report
31. Misiaszek, Michael, 22, SP/4 (E-4), 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne Division, FSSE (December 1968 to January 1970).
Allegation: 1) Desecration of graves, 2) Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant made oral and written statements, but was unable to substantiate his WSI allegations. Investigation disproved one of his allegations, that Army engineers plowed under Vietnamese graves while constructing a stadium.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Michael Misiaszek CID Investigation Report
32. Noetzel, Steve, 31, SP/4, 5th Special Forces Group Augmentation (May 1963 to May 1964).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified prisoners / detainees, 2) Inhumane treatment of prisoners.
Investigation summary: The CID statement refers to allegations made in another venue nine months prior to WSI, but the main allegation is basically the same. Complainant Noetzel repeated his allegations orally, but returned a written summary unsigned. An extensive investigation failed to substantiate Noetzel's allegations.
Result: Investigation completed; unfounded / insufficient evidence.
Gordon Livingston / Robert Johnson / Steve Noetzel CID Investigation Report
33. Ostrenga, Patrick, "D" Co., 25th Infantry Division (February to December - year unknown).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese, 2) Refusing to render medical treatment to wounded prisoners and Vietnamese.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to provide any information concerning his allegations.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Patrick Ostrenga CID Investigation Report
34. Palosaari, Ronald, 23, SP/4, 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division (1967 to 1968).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese, 2) Mutilation of corpse.
Investigation summary: Complainant was unable to provide specific dates, locations or names of individuals allegedly involved, and backtracked on his WSI allegation that he had witnessed the mutilation of enemy dead.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Ronald Palosaari CID Investigation Report
35. Perry, Bill, 23, Pfc. (E-3), "A" Co., 1/506, 101st Airborne Division (November 1966 to August 1968).
Allegation: 1) Indiscriminate use of fire power, 2) Mutilation of corpses.
Investigation summary: Complainant could not be located.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Bill Perry CID Investigation Report
36. Podlaski, Ron, 24, Sgt. (E-5), 5th Special Forces Group (April 1968 to April 1969).
Allegation: 1) Murder of prisoners, Vietnamese civilians and a Laotian national, 2) Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant declined to answer questions pending advice from his attorney, then moved and could not be located.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Ron Podlaski CID Investigation Report
37. Pugsley, Don, 23, SP/4, 5th Special Forces (October 1969 to December 1969).
Allegation: 1) Indiscriminate destruction of livestock.
Investigation summary: Complainant said in a sworn statement that the strafing of water buffalo he alleged at WSI did not actually occur.
Result: Investigation completed; unsubstantiated.
Don Pugsley CID Investigation Report
38. Rice, William, 21, SP/4, 3/47th and HQ, 3rd Brigade, 9th Infantry Division (January 1969 to January 1970).
Allegation: 1) Murder of prisoners, 2) Torture of prisoners, 3) Maltreatment of prisoners.
Investigation summary: Complainant declined to make any statements or provide any information concerning his allegations.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
William Rice CID Investigation Report
39. Rippberger, Carl, 23, (E-4), "K" Troop, 3rd Squad, 11th Armored Cav. Reg., attached to 9th Infantry Division (May 1967 to May 1968).
Allegation: 1) Torture and maltreatment of prisoners, 2) Failure to bury enemy dead, 3) Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to provide any information concerning his allegations on advice from his attorney.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Carl Rippberger CID Investigation Report
40. Rottmann, Larry, 25, 1st Lt., Public Information Office, 25th Infantry Division (June 1967 to March 1968).
Allegation: 1) Presence of nerve agents in Vietnam, 2) Suppression of war crime information from news media, 3) Wearing of ears and scalps by US forces, 4) Murder of enemy personnel attempting to surrender, 5) Destruction of Vietnamese villages by bombing and napalm, 6) Torture of VC/NVA.
Investigation summary: The CID statement refers to allegations made at two different venues, nine months and two months prior to WSI. Rottman's WSI testimony was about military press censorship and he did not allege any war crimes there. Attempts to contact the complainant were unsuccessful. The case was closed due to the lack of cooperation and the lack of any definitive leads.
Result: Investigation completed; case closed.
Larry Rottmann / Michael Uhl CID Investigation Report
Note: The CID also investigated an allegation by Rottmann that General Westmoreland had ordered the destruction of a village in the Mekong Delta. This allegation was determined to be unfounded.
Larry Rottmann CID Investigation Report
41. Ruth, Kenneth, 26, (E-4), HHQ Co., 2/12 Air Cav. Reg., 1st Air Cav. Div. (February 1966 to February 1967).
Allegation: 1) Torture of VC suspects, 2) Indiscriminate use of fire power, resulting in the injury of 43 Vietnamese civilians.
Investigation summary: Complainant's WSI allegations were found to be unsubstantiated. He also backtracked on an additional claim made in a LIFE Magazine article, stating to investigators that he had no personal knowledge of casualties as a result of the test firing of weapons.
Result: Investigation completed; unsubstantiated.
Kenneth Ruth CID Investigation Report
42. Schorr, Sam, SP/4 (E-4), 86th Combat Engineers (September 1966 to September 1967).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese, 2) Desecration of graves, 3 Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to answer any questions about his allegations. He further stated that if the President of the United States was investigated for war crimes, he would release information relative to his testimony.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Sam Schorr CID Investigation Report
43. Shepard, Franklin, 23, S. Sgt. (E-6), 5/60, 9th Infantry Division (March 1968 to August 1969).
Allegation: 1) Mutilation of enemy dead and unidentified Vietnamese.
Investigation summary: Complainant provided a written, sworn statement in support of his allegation. Multiple witnesses interviewed contradicted Shepard's claims, and further investigation also failed to support his statements.
Result: Investigation completed; unsubstantiated.
Franklin Shepard CID Investigation Report
44. Smith, George, (E-6), 5th Special Forces; taken prisoner by the NLF in 1963 and released in November 1965.
Allegation: 1) Maltreatment of prisoners.
Investigation summary: Complainant backtracked on his WSI allegations, stating that Vietnamese troops rather than American troops had committed illegal acts.
Result: Investigation completed; unsubstantiated.
George Smith CID Investigation Report
45. Stark, David, 25, SP/5 (E-5), 524 Military Intelligence Detachment (October 1967 to October 1968).
Allegation: 1) Indiscriminate use of fire power resulting in the deaths of unidentified Vietnamese, 2) Maltreatment of prisoners.
Investigation summary: Complainant backtracked on his WSI allegations, saying that he had not witnessed the maltreatment of prisoners, and that he saw no bodies and could not identify the military units involved in the alleged events.
Result: Investigation completed; unsubstantiated.
David Stark CID Investigation Report
46. Stephens, Charles, 24, Pfc. (E-3), 1/327, 101st Airborne Division (December 1965 to February 1967).
Allegation: 1) Murder of Vietnamese civilians and prisoners, 2) Mutilation of enemy dead, 3) Indiscriminate use of fire power, 4) Refusing to render medical aid.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to provide any statement on advice of counsel concerning both WSI and LIFE Magazine allegations.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Charles Stephens CID Investigation Report
47. Weber, Jim, 24, Sgt. (E-5), "A" Co., 1/6 and 1/46, 198 LIB, Americal Division (November 1967 to November 1968).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese and prisoners, 2) Assault, 3) Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to provide any statement, saying the only subject he would identify was President Johnson.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Jim Weber CID Investigation Report
48. Wiktorski, Robert, 22, SP/4 (E-4), "C" Co., 2/12 Air Cav. Reg., 1st Air Cav. Div.(May 1968 to May 1969).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified North Vietnamese Army soldier, 2) Aggravated assault.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to make any statement or provide any information.
Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.
Robert Wiktorski CID Investigation Report
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The following are Army WSI witnesses whose available summary reports show inconclusive preliminary investigations:1. Bezanson, William, 24, Pfc., 4/3, 11th Brigade, Americal Division and 123rd Aviation Bn. (1967 to 1968).Allegation: 1) Torture of enemy prisoners, 2) Indiscriminate killing of 15 unidentified Vietnamese civilians, 3) Destruction of private property.
Preliminary investigation summary: Unable to identify complainant.
2. Crouse, Allan, 22 (E-4), 3rd Engineers Brigade, 82nd Airborne Division (January 1969 to December 1969).Allegation: 1) Destruction of private property.
Preliminary investigation summary: Unable to identify complainant.
3. Hopkins, Barry, 23, 3/39th, 9th Infantry Division (January 1969 to January 1970).Allegation: 1) Murder, 2) Maltreatment of female prisoners, 3) Failure to render medical treatment to prisoner.
Preliminary investigation summary: Unable to identify complainant.
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The following are Army WSI witnesses for whom no summary reports have been found:1. Bjornson, Dr. Jon, 37, Major, Psychiatrist, Flight Surgeon, Deputy Surgeon, USASC, 8th Field Hospital, Nha Trang (May 1964 to April 1965).
Summary of WSI allegations: Asserted that war crimes are routinely committed by the U.S. military. Theorized about causes of criminal violence in troops, promotes widespread drug abuse exaggerations, and blamed the American system for evil nature of troops. Quoted Marx. No claim to have personal knowledge of war crimes.2. Braum, David, 25, SP/5, 21 Trans. Co., 119 Avn. Co. Airmobile, 52 Combat Avn. Bn., 52 Prov. Plt., Delta Bn. (1963-1964).Summary of WSI allegations: Moderator of "Weapons Panel" at WSI. Made the absurd claim that "...in civilian life I was, for five years, purchasing all materials and supplies for the United States Air Force, the U.S. Navy, the Atomic Energy Commission, the Army and the CIA...." Characterized various weapons systems as de facto illegal and/or immoral. Provided slides for presentation that depicted equipment, not events.3. Carey, Orville, 1st Logistics Command. Postal clerk in Pleiku, Vietnam. Appeared on "Third World Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: No allegations of war crimes. Alleged racism in Army, stating, "We [in U.S. Army, Germany] had Klansmen... and this was more or less accepted as policy. Nobody worried about cross burnings or stuff... There was no chance for a promotion. You were handed out all the vile details... The only way I could get out of Germany was to volunteer to go to Vietnam."4. Crandell, William, 26, 1LT, 199th LIB, Americal Division. Made "Opening Statement" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Generalizations about genocide and pervasive war crimes as a result of policy.
5. Crumb, Jan, 28, SP/4, 18th Aviation Co. (December 1961 to October 1963). Moderator, along with John Kerry, of "Miscellaneous Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: No discernible record of remarks. The caption "Moderator" is used throughout in the transcript, not distinguishing between the two moderators.6. Duncan, Don, M/Sgt., 5th Special Forces (1964 to 1965). Made "Closing Statement" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Generalizations. Blamed entire country and media for atrocities. "It has been done systematically, deliberately, and continuously...." Argued that American schools and American society need to be changed. "...I think the fact that so much can be done to so many men by so few people is the greatest testament to the fact that our colleges, our high schools, our everyday life is nothing but pre-basic training."7. Egendorf, Arthur, 525 Military Intelligence Group, Saigon. Appeared on "What Are We Doing To Ourselves Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Said that he went to Harvard and majored in economics. "...the institutions of this society are very much a part of the phenomenon that we're discussing..." Claimed that corporations and the media were providing cover identities for covert operatives. No specific war crimes allegations.8. Galicia, Dr. David, Major, Psychiatrist, 3rd Field Hospital, Saigon (July 1969 to June 1970). Appeared on "Medical Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Testified about the poor condition, as he saw it, of medical and psychiatric services. Spoke of drug abuse among troops, lack of American medical care for Vietnamese, and criticized the effects of some incendiary weapons. No war crimes allegations.9. Grosso, Dr. Joseph, 31, Captain, General Medical Officer, 173rd Airborne Brigade, Field Hospital, Nha Trang (April 1967 to December 1967). Appeared on "Medical Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Claimed that the Army's Medical Civil Action Program (MedCap) "...was an attempt to use the practice of medicine as a propaganda device" Alleged that "...it was more or less command policy that prostitution be part of the military operation." No war crimes allegations.10. Hale, Nathan, 23, SP/5, 199th LIB, Americal Division (December 1967 to December 1968). Appeared on "3rd Marine Division Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Claimed that "...in January of '68 I was assigned to the 1st Cav., Americal Division." -- The 1st Cav. and the Americal are two different divisions. Said that he took part in a Marine mission called Daring Endeavors, south of Da Nang, during October 1968. Displayed slides purportedly showing Vietnamese National Field Police interrogating a prisoner using torture. Hale claimed he also used torture to interrogate enemy prisoners, and alleged that an enemy combatant died as result of the use of CS (tear) gas in a tunnel.
Note: A memo dated 21 April 1971 from Col. Tufts (head of CID) to CoS, U.S. Army, stated that Hale's complaint was under investigation. No other CID documents available to date refer to his allegations.
11. Kruch, Robert, 25, Pfc. (E-3), Co. A, 3/21, 196 LIB, Americal Division. Appeared on "Americal Division Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Talks about poor leadership and maltreatment of U.S. troops by commanders. Says his company refused "to go back out" at one point. No war crimes allegations.12. Light, William, 22 (E-3), "E" Co., 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division (May 1968 to June 1969). Appeared at "Third World Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Generalized remarks about racism. No war crimes allegations. Received a General Discharge.13. McSheffrey, Ron, 6/31 9th Infantry Division (1969-1970). Appeared on "What Are We Doing To Ourselves Panel" at WSI, erroneously listed as "Dr." McSheffrey.Summary of WSI allegations: Tells of his drug addiction in Vietnam. No war crimes allegations. Received a "212 discharge" - namely, "honorable wartime service subsequent to desertion."14. Moore, Scott, 26, 1st Lt., 2/39th, 9th Infantry Division (1968 to 1969). Appeared on the "1st, 4th and 9th Infantry Divisions Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Generalized complaints. No war crimes allegations."15. Murphy, Ed, 23, Sgt. (E-5), 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division (October 1967 to September 1968). Appeared on "Miscellaneous Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Testimony consists of one paragraph of generalized remarks affirming the testimony of others.
Note: A memo dated 21 April 1971 from Col. Tufts (head of CID) to CoS, U.S. Army, stated that Murphy's complaint was under investigation. No other CID documents available to date refer to his allegations.
16. Newton, Ron, 24, Pfc. (E-3), 3rd Brigade, HHQ Co., 704 Maintenance Bn., 4th Infantry Division (July 1966 to June 1967). Appeared on "1st, 4th and 9th Infantry Divisions Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Complains about Army training, poor medical care and alleged racism towards Vietnamese. No war crimes allegations."17. Novick, Wayne, 22, SP/4, 1st En., 26th Inf., 1st Inf. Division (February 1969 to February 1970). Moderator of the "1st, 4th and 9th Infantry Divisions Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Asked questions of witnesses. No independent war crimes allegations.18. Pitkin, Steve, 20, SP/4, "C" Co., 2/239, 9th Infantry Division (May 1969 to July 1969). Appeared on "Miscellaneous Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Said that he would "...testify about the beating of civilians and enemy personnel, destruction of villages, indiscriminate use of artillery, the general racism and the attitude of the American GI toward the Vietnamese." This was followed by generalized complaining about the military. No specific war crimes allegations.
Note: Pitkin publicly recanted his participation in WSI in 2004, saying in a signed affidavit that he had been pressured to present false testimony about war crimes in Vietnam by other VVAW members, including John Kerry.
19. Primm, Alex, 26, SP/4 (E-4), Public Information Office, 1st Logistics Command, Headquarters (September 1968 to June 1969). Appeared on "25th Infantry Division and Public Information Office Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Complained about military and other news reporting. No war crimes allegations.20. Romo, Barry, 23, 1st Lt., "A" Co., 2/1, 196 LIB, "C" Co., 3/4, 11th Inf. Brigade, Americal Division (June 1967 to November 1968). Moderator of the "Americal Division Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Mostly generalizations about racism toward Latinos. He is Chicano and became a commissioned officer at age 19. No war crimes allegations.21. Shibla, Vernon, 27, SP/4, Public Information Office, 25th Infantry Division (1966 to 1967). Appeared on "25th Infantry Division and Public Information Office Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Complained about Army Public Information policies of censorship. No war crimes allegations.22. Umenhofer, James, SP/4 (E-4), 2/501, 101st Airborne Division (November 1969 to October 1970). Appeared on the "82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions and 173rd Airborne Brigade Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Mostly generalizations. One allegation of racially motivated fragging.23. Williams, Donald P. Did not serve in Vietnam. Claimed 8 years active duty service, units not revealed. Said he deserted to Sweden after his unit was deployed to Saigon in March 1968. Appeared on "Third World Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Complained of racism. Falsely claimed that "...statistics say that blacks constitute only ten percent of the total population in the United States, yet they represent at least forty percent of the fighting forces in Vietnam." Proposed smoking grass as an antidote to racism.24. Wingrodski, Curtis, 22, SP/4, 59th Scout Dog, 11th Brigade, Americal Division (March 1969 to October 1969). Appeared on the "Americal Division Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Testimony is brief, lacking any content. No war crimes allegations.25. Wright, Doug, SP/4, 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division. Appeared on "Americal Division Panel" at WSI.Summary of WSI allegations: Testimony is brief, lacking any content. "And these things go on..." "Here I am, you know." No war crimes allegations.
Thanks to John Boyle for making these reports available and providing summary information.
Last Updated Tuesday, March 04 2008 @ 03:37 PM EST; 69,495 Hits
Assholes making trouble in Oregon
- Thread starter Old Rocks
- Start date
9thIDdoc
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First things first.
You said Kerry's Purple Hearts were unearned because [at least some of] his injuries did not involve enemy action.
I posted the events leading up to each of those medals. I'm still waiting for you to point out which ones were not inflicted during enemy action.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JOHN KERRY'S 'SELF-INFLICTED'
PURPLE HEART, BRONZE STAR
Vietnam Swift Boat vets reveal new details of charges against presidential candidate
John Kerry’s ‘self-inflicted’ Purple Heart, Bronze Star
Published: 08/10/2004 at 1:00 AM
60-second commercial opposing John Kerry for president, the Swift Boat Vets for Truth reveal new details of their politically sizzling charges against the candidate who made his war experience the cornerstone of his convention acceptance speech.
Attempting to bolster their accusations that Kerry misrepresented slight injuries to win Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, the vets cite a March 13, 1969, incident for which the young lieutenant was decorated.
Two injuries – a small bruise on his right arm and a minor injury to his buttocks – won Kerry his Third Purple Heart and a trip home. However, the vets say, the wound to his buttocks was self-inflicted and should never have received Purple Heart consideration.
While Kerry claims the injury came from shrapnel from an underwater mine, Larry Thurlow, an officer on shore with Kerry that day, insists the wound was the result of Kerry’s decision to throw a concussion grenade into a rice pile. The “shrapnel,” he says, was actually rice pellets.
As further evidence, the vets say, Kerry himself reflected in his own journal that his buttocks’ wound came, not from a mine but, rather, from a grenade tossed into a rice cache.
Sworn statements of those present say there was no hostile fire involved in this incident for which Kerry received his third Purple Heart and the coveted Bronze Star.
“The conclusion is inescapable: that Kerry lied by reporting to the Navy that he had been wounded by shrapnel in his backside from an enemy mine when in reality he negligently wounded himself and then lied about the wound in order to secure a third Purple Heart and a quick trip home,” reads the letter.
The letter continues: “Kerry’s operating report, Bronze Star story, and subsequent ‘no man left behind’ story are a total hoax on the Navy and the nation,” they say.
As to the daring rescue discussed in the documentary video shown to the nation at the Democratic convention, the vets say the rescue was well under way under the leadership of others when Kerry returned to the scene where Special Forces soldier Jim Rassman was plucked out of the water. Eyewitnesses have signed affidavits explaining when Kerry returned, there was no more hostile fire. He just merely leaned over the boat and assisted Rassman out of the water.
“Kerry’s account of this action, which was used to secure the Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart, is an extraordinary example of fraud,” they say.
The letter also recounts the incident that occurred Dec. 2, 1968, that led to Kerry receiving his first Purple Heart.
Once again, the vets insist there was no hostile fire involved, and, again, they say, Kerry’s very minor wound was self-inflicted.
According to the vets’ account, Kerry, Navy Lt. William Schachte, and an enlisted man were on a whaler.
“Seeing movement from an unknown source, the sailors opened fire on the movement,” the letter says. “There was no hostile fire. When Kerry’s rifle jammed, he picked up an M-79 grenade launcher and fired a grenade at a nearby object. This sprayed the boat with shrapnel from Kerry’s own grenade, a tiny piece of which embedded in Kerry’s arm.”
Upon examining Kerry’s injury, Dr. Lewis Letson says he asked Kerry why he was there.
Kerry reportedly told him he had been wounded by hostile fire. Letson removed the tiny fragment with tweezers and placed a Band-Aid over the scratch.
The next morning, Kerry went to see Division Commander Grant Hibbard to ask for the Purple Heart. Hibbard had already spoken to Schachte and conducted an investigation. Hibbard’s investigation revealed that Kerry’s “rose thorn” scratch had been self-inflicted in the absence of hostile fire. Hibbard denied the award.
Some three months later, Kerry managed to obtain his first Purple Heart from an officer with no connection to Coastal Division 14 or knowledge of the Dec. 2, 1968, event, they say.
“All normal documentation supporting a Purple Heart is missing,” the letter says. “There is absolutely no casualty report (i.e., spot report) or hostile fire report or after-action report in the Navy’s files to support this ‘Purple Heart’ because there was no casualty, hostile fire, or action on which to report. The sole document relied upon by Kerry is a record showing the band aid and tweezers treatment by Dr. Letson recorded by deceased corpsman, Jess Carreon.
“There are no witnesses who claim to have seen hostile fire – necessary for a Purple Heart (even a rose thorn Purple Heart) – that day. At least three witnesses, Dr. Letson (who spoke to the participants and removed the M-79 fragment), Lt. Bill Schachte (on the boat), and Cmdr. Grant Hibbard (whose investigation revealed Kerry’s application for a Purple Heart to be fraudulent), are able to testify directly or based upon contemporaneous investigation that Kerry’s first Purple Heart was a fraud,” says the letter.
Swift Boat Vets for Truth claims a membership of 254 sailors from Coastal Squadron One, ranging from vice admirals to seamen. They claim 16 of the 23 surviving officers who served with Kerry in swift boats in Vietnam and who could be found have joined.
Read more at John Kerry’s ‘self-inflicted’ Purple Heart, Bronze Star
You said Kerry's Purple Hearts were unearned because [at least some of] his injuries did not involve enemy action.
I posted the events leading up to each of those medals. I'm still waiting for you to point out which ones were not inflicted during enemy action.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JOHN KERRY'S 'SELF-INFLICTED'
PURPLE HEART, BRONZE STAR
Vietnam Swift Boat vets reveal new details of charges against presidential candidate
John Kerry’s ‘self-inflicted’ Purple Heart, Bronze Star
Published: 08/10/2004 at 1:00 AM
60-second commercial opposing John Kerry for president, the Swift Boat Vets for Truth reveal new details of their politically sizzling charges against the candidate who made his war experience the cornerstone of his convention acceptance speech.
Attempting to bolster their accusations that Kerry misrepresented slight injuries to win Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, the vets cite a March 13, 1969, incident for which the young lieutenant was decorated.
Two injuries – a small bruise on his right arm and a minor injury to his buttocks – won Kerry his Third Purple Heart and a trip home. However, the vets say, the wound to his buttocks was self-inflicted and should never have received Purple Heart consideration.
While Kerry claims the injury came from shrapnel from an underwater mine, Larry Thurlow, an officer on shore with Kerry that day, insists the wound was the result of Kerry’s decision to throw a concussion grenade into a rice pile. The “shrapnel,” he says, was actually rice pellets.
As further evidence, the vets say, Kerry himself reflected in his own journal that his buttocks’ wound came, not from a mine but, rather, from a grenade tossed into a rice cache.
Sworn statements of those present say there was no hostile fire involved in this incident for which Kerry received his third Purple Heart and the coveted Bronze Star.
“The conclusion is inescapable: that Kerry lied by reporting to the Navy that he had been wounded by shrapnel in his backside from an enemy mine when in reality he negligently wounded himself and then lied about the wound in order to secure a third Purple Heart and a quick trip home,” reads the letter.
The letter continues: “Kerry’s operating report, Bronze Star story, and subsequent ‘no man left behind’ story are a total hoax on the Navy and the nation,” they say.
As to the daring rescue discussed in the documentary video shown to the nation at the Democratic convention, the vets say the rescue was well under way under the leadership of others when Kerry returned to the scene where Special Forces soldier Jim Rassman was plucked out of the water. Eyewitnesses have signed affidavits explaining when Kerry returned, there was no more hostile fire. He just merely leaned over the boat and assisted Rassman out of the water.
“Kerry’s account of this action, which was used to secure the Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart, is an extraordinary example of fraud,” they say.
The letter also recounts the incident that occurred Dec. 2, 1968, that led to Kerry receiving his first Purple Heart.
Once again, the vets insist there was no hostile fire involved, and, again, they say, Kerry’s very minor wound was self-inflicted.
According to the vets’ account, Kerry, Navy Lt. William Schachte, and an enlisted man were on a whaler.
“Seeing movement from an unknown source, the sailors opened fire on the movement,” the letter says. “There was no hostile fire. When Kerry’s rifle jammed, he picked up an M-79 grenade launcher and fired a grenade at a nearby object. This sprayed the boat with shrapnel from Kerry’s own grenade, a tiny piece of which embedded in Kerry’s arm.”
Upon examining Kerry’s injury, Dr. Lewis Letson says he asked Kerry why he was there.
Kerry reportedly told him he had been wounded by hostile fire. Letson removed the tiny fragment with tweezers and placed a Band-Aid over the scratch.
The next morning, Kerry went to see Division Commander Grant Hibbard to ask for the Purple Heart. Hibbard had already spoken to Schachte and conducted an investigation. Hibbard’s investigation revealed that Kerry’s “rose thorn” scratch had been self-inflicted in the absence of hostile fire. Hibbard denied the award.
Some three months later, Kerry managed to obtain his first Purple Heart from an officer with no connection to Coastal Division 14 or knowledge of the Dec. 2, 1968, event, they say.
“All normal documentation supporting a Purple Heart is missing,” the letter says. “There is absolutely no casualty report (i.e., spot report) or hostile fire report or after-action report in the Navy’s files to support this ‘Purple Heart’ because there was no casualty, hostile fire, or action on which to report. The sole document relied upon by Kerry is a record showing the band aid and tweezers treatment by Dr. Letson recorded by deceased corpsman, Jess Carreon.
“There are no witnesses who claim to have seen hostile fire – necessary for a Purple Heart (even a rose thorn Purple Heart) – that day. At least three witnesses, Dr. Letson (who spoke to the participants and removed the M-79 fragment), Lt. Bill Schachte (on the boat), and Cmdr. Grant Hibbard (whose investigation revealed Kerry’s application for a Purple Heart to be fraudulent), are able to testify directly or based upon contemporaneous investigation that Kerry’s first Purple Heart was a fraud,” says the letter.
Swift Boat Vets for Truth claims a membership of 254 sailors from Coastal Squadron One, ranging from vice admirals to seamen. They claim 16 of the 23 surviving officers who served with Kerry in swift boats in Vietnam and who could be found have joined.
Read more at John Kerry’s ‘self-inflicted’ Purple Heart, Bronze Star
koshergrl
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The terrorists are people like you..and in this case, the pigs who ambushed a group of people traveling to a peaceful meeting, where people were waiting to hear what they had to say.
The FBI and Harney county officials don't want people to know what's going on. The Sheriff of Grant County had and has no intention of inviting the feds into his county to do more damage than they already have, and he will go to the ground defending his constituents from them.
The terrorists are the feds, hazelnut, faun, and the rest who are fine with the ambush and assassination of an unarmed man.
You seem determined to hijack and kill the thread with the totally irrelevant John Kerry Vietnam debate, even if you have to use garbage that was debunked over a decade ago.
None of what you are posting is remotely related to the assholes in Oregon, but it is all the assholes defending the assholes have left.
I find it interesting in that the video produced and eyewitness account repudiates justification for the shooting. On the other hand I see those of the liberal persuasion applauding the shooting. Ironically if the victim was black their would be cries of murder, profiling, and chants proclaiming black lives mater. The key question that remains unanswered is documentation as to what was said by the officers and what was said by the victim, and if in fact he was shot in the back.
koshergrl
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Progressives like criminals. Whether they're black criminals throwing rocks and beating people up or feds violating the constitution and killing old men. That's what they like, and they're always going to defend and support it. In their eyes, the bad guys are the ones who defend themselves or stand up for things like honor, integrity, and freedom.
TyroneSlothrop
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Skylar
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Seriously. That moron was bound to hurt someone sooner or later. Thankfully, the only person he hurt was himself. My sympathies to the Trooper who had to play the role of 'cop' in Lavoy's 'Suicide by Cop' nonsense.
Skylar
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But you can hide a 9 mm pistol. Which is what they found in the pocket that Lavoy was reaching for.
The deluded idiot was about to try and shoot a State Trooper. If it had to be the Trooper or Lavoy, then I'd prefer its Lavoy that achieved room temperature.
See, Kosh....you can imagine the law to be whatever you want. But as Ammon in a concrete box and Lavoy in a wooden one demonstrates, the meaningless pseudo-legal gibberish you tell yourself means jack shit.
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koshergrl
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There are a lot of people about whom that would be true. A half dozen of them posting in this thread. This guy posed no threat to anybody, though he obviously tore a hole in old fags masculinity.
He wasnt grabbing for a gun and didnt have one on him.
Old Rocks
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Now silly little bitch, you are pulling more lies out of that ample ass. There were a bunch of OSP as well as FBI there. And I bet that Sheriff Palmer knew that there would be an ambush when he set up the meeting. Perhaps even planned the meeting with the FBI.
Skylar
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He was reaching for a gun in his pocket. This after running a police blockade, resisting arrest, and leading the cops on a high speed chase. This situation will likely go down as a text book justifiable shooting, taught in police academies across the nation.
You're only demonstrating how utterly delusional you and your militia ilk is. And why your perspective in general isn't credible.
Says you, pretending you know what the fuck you're talking about. Alas, reality isn't bound to whatever comforting lies you tell yourself. They found a gun in the very pocket he was reaching for. And a State Trooper is *far* more credible than you playing pretend.
koshergrl
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So you agree it was an ambush and the intent was to kill them. Common ground at last.
Skylar
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Nope. More of your batshit delusion. They spent 7 minutes telling him to get out of his car. Ammon, and the rest of the Miltia idiots in the other vehicle did as instructed, were arrested per the warrants issued, and are fine. Lavoy refused to surrender to the police, drove off at high speed, lead the cops on a chase, ran a blockade, resisted arrest and reached for a gun.
And was shot by a State Trooper. As he should have been. There is absolutely nothing that the FBI or the State Troopers should have changed about their actions. This is all on the criminal Lavoy.
You're fucked, Kosh. As all you're doing is discrediting the militia morons even further by forwarding a demonstrably false narrative. As you're proving that your ilk are liars that can't be trusted. As the video and gun found on his body demonstrate.
Old Rocks
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Dumb little bitch, dealing with felons, you do not challenge them to a duel in the street, you catch them off guard, and arrest them with as little violence as possible. Sure it was an ambush. And a successful one. Only one death, and that was really suicide by cop. And it was set up by Palmer of Grant County. Thank You, Sheriff Palmer.
Vandalshandle
Gold Member
You are still obsessed with that? I was saying that when the FBI rolls in armored vehicles, which they have, it is time for the militia in the refuge drop their deer rifles and come out peacefully.
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