As requested by task.

[forkup]

Task asked another poster to give his reasoning to the claim "Trump is an existential threat to the country."
I felt it would be interesting to voice it so here goes.

-Trump has given rise to a political nihilism that is a clear threat to the health of a Democracy.
This is manifested daily on this board. Countless times I've seen posters on the right refer to establishment, deep state or something similar as an enemy that Trump is destroying. What it is actually doing is undermining public trust in every institution that doesn't blindly follow Trump. This is dangerous for a Democracy.
-Trump is actively and constantly attacking the press. This is undermining the public trust in them. This is also manifested on this board. Try giving a youtube video from a segment of CNN here. People on the right will reject it out of hand, EVEN when the segment in question is Trump directly speaking in an interview. A country were information can be discredited so easily and so completely is not a healthy Democracy.
-Trump is not only completely and utterly uninformed about foreign policy. He's also uninterested in learning anything about it. Not only that but he routinely rejects the advice of those people who are informed and instead goes by what he calls his instincts. Foreign policy is not only complex it's also far reaching and potentially deadly. Winging that is dangerous.

I could do more but lets start here.

 

[Indeependent]

Because those who are informed have done such a wonderful job...not.

 

[Confounding]

Donald Trump is not going to destroy our way of life. You are insane if you think that.

 

[forkup]

Because those who are informed have done such a wonderful job...not.

Trump has given rise to a political nihilism

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Donald Trump is not going to destroy our way of life. You are insane if you think that.

Yep. we survived Bush II and Obama, Trump will be a walk in the park

 

[ABikerSailor]

Yep, the more Trump demonizes those on the Democrat side, the more his followers will demonize them as well. We see it daily on these boards.

 

[task0778]

First, let me thank you for the thread and your input. You said:

-Trump has given rise to a political nihilism that is a clear threat to the health of a Democracy.
This is manifested daily on this board. Countless times I've seen posters on the right refer to establishment, deep state or something similar as an enemy that Trump is destroying. What it is actually doing is undermining public trust in every institution that doesn't blindly follows Trump. This is dangerous for a Democracy.

Nihilism (Merriam-Webster):

1a: a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless. Nihilism is a condition in which all ultimate values lose their value.— Ronald H. Nash
b: a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths

2a: a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility.

I don't think Trump has said or done anything to satisfy the above definition, not even close unless you've got a different definition of what you mean by 'political nihilism'. Do you really think Trump is trying to destroy the political establishment or deep state? Do you not believe that every federal gov't agency has a higher duty to country than to a political party or ideology? Should he not be trying to determine if there were people an agencies who were acting in ways that conflicted with that higher duty?

You know what I think is dangerous to democracy? NOT trying to determine if such actions were taken. This isn't about blindly following Trump, this is about finding out if, when, how, and who might've made decisions and done things that were less than impartial, if not illegal. I'm curious, do you really think that the Special Counsel that investigated the Russian Collusion in the 2016 election was done in a fair and impartial way? You know how Clinton was treated and how Trump was treated, are you going to tell me it was equal treatment? What evidence did they have concerning the Trump campaign beyond the Steele Dossier? Why shouldn't he be royally pissed about that?

As for undermining public trust, that was happening long before Trump came along. From Fast and Furious to Benghazi, to the IRS targeting conservative groups to the Iran nuclear deal to the Paris Climate Accords to name a few, public trust in our gov't agencies has been going downhill for quite awhile. I think the best way to restore public trust is to find out who did what and prosecute or get rid of those who were shall we say somewhat less than honorable in the performance of their duties. No change means we got the same assholes using their political office for personal or partisan purposes, and that's gotta change. What the hell do you think Trump got elected in the first place, even though his favorable/unfavorable poll numbers were upside down.

Just getting started here. More to follow.

 

[task0778]

"-Trump is actively and constantly attacking the press. This is undermining the public trust in them. This is also manifested on this board. Try giving a youtube video from a segment of CNN here. People on the right will reject it out of hand, EVEN when the segment in question is Trump directly speaking in an interview. A country were information can be discredited so easily and so completely is not a healthy Democracy."

You don't think the press has been attacking Trump non-stop, ever since he became a possible nominee? You don't think the public trust in the press/media is deserved by their own actions? Really? You must know that somewhere around 95% of the coverage on Trump is negative, are you going to tell me they've been fair and impartial? So tell me, when did Trump's DoJ secretly obtained months of telephone records of AP reporters and editors? Obama's DoJ did that back in 2013. When did Trump's Atty General approve surveillance of a news reporter, without a warrant? He didn't, but Eric Holder did.

When did Trump's White House close events, for a time to all but the official photographer. Obama barred the media from events — including, ironically, an award ceremony where he was recognized for “transparency” — and often restricted photographers’ access, only releasing images taken by the official White House photographer.

I remember when the Obama administration targeted Fox News for isolation and marginalization, arguing that it was not a legitimate news organization but “the research arm or the communications arm of the Republican Party.” They tried to exclude Fox News from a news teleconference I think it was. But the other news organization wouldn't participate if Fox News was not included, and that ended that.

The Obama administration “set a record” for failing to provide information requested by the press and the public under the Freedom of Information Act. Something like over 70% of the FOIA requests were denied. And went for months without doing a single press conference, maybe that's not attacking the press but it ain't doing their image any favors either. Trump doesn't like negative coverage, no wonder he bitches about it. But he hasn't actually attacked them like Obama did.

A healthy democracy does require a free press, but it also requires a fair and impartial presentation of the news, which today's press does not do in large part unless you're a democrat. Outlets like CNN and MSNBC are not checking their sources and getting confirmations before running negative stories about Trump. They're running unsubstantiated stories against the president that in many cases turn out to be false. So IMHO the press fully deserves the loss of public trust their getting.

 

[task0778]

" -Trump is not only completely and utterly uninformed about foreign policy. He's also uninterested in learning anything about it. Not only that but he routinely rejects the advice of those people who are informed and instead goes by what he calls his instincts. Foreign policy is not only complex it's also far reaching and potentially deadly. Winging that is dangerous."

You don't know if he's 'completely and utterly uninformed' about foreign policy or anything else. You don't know if he's uninterested in learning about it, or that he routinely rejects the advice of those around him. Truth is, you don't know a damn thing about it, you're taking somebody else's opinions or statements at face value because it fits your narrative. You read somebody's book that portrays him negatively and accepted all of it as gospel truth. My guess is, there are some people telling him to do this and others telling him to do that. So he makes the call and somebody like you ups and says he's ignoring the advice of informed people around him.

Funny, he hasn't got us into a new war yet. I don't see where his foreign policy decisions have been all that disastrous. 2 years in, where's the 1st fuck-up?

 

[daveman]

Yep, the more Trump demonizes those on the Democrat side, the more his followers will demonize them as well. We see it daily on these boards.

And oddly enough, there is no demonization of Trump and his supporters from the left.

 

[task0778]

An addendum: I'm not going to argue that Trump isn't a total jerk. He has his personality and character flaws just like everyone else and probably should not be the POTUS. But he is the POTUS whether anyone else likes it or not, and the real truth is that the blame and responsibility for the dysfunctional gov't we have today rests with all of us to some degree. Don't give me this crap that it's all Trump's fault, that's a load of BS. The lack of trust in the gov't at every level has been earned long before Trump appeared, and is in fact one of the reasons why he got elected in the first place. And that goes for the distrust of the media/press too, they have created it themselves through a lack of honesty and integrity.

None of which is an existential threat to this country, that is a total hyperbole that represents the desire on both sides of the political spectrum to demonize the other. There is as yet no Constitutional crisis unless we create one, and Trump ain't it. However, it sure looks like we are headed in the wrong direction these days with so much divisiveness and intolerance. And that too is a problem for which we all share in the blame, including Trump. Stop looking around for somebody else to blame because they don't agree with you. It is my hope that one day people will stop looking for someone to point fingers at and instead start looking for common ground and solutions that might not be perfect but nonetheless are in the best interests of the country as a whole. Doesn't look like that'll happen anytime soon though.

 

[OKTexas]

Task asked another poster to give his reasoning to the claim "Trump is an existential threat to the country."
I felt it would be interesting to voice it so here goes.

-Trump has given rise to a political nihilism that is a clear threat to the health of a Democracy.
This is manifested daily on this board. Countless times I've seen posters on the right refer to establishment, deep state or something similar as an enemy that Trump is destroying. What it is actually doing is undermining public trust in every institution that doesn't blindly follow Trump. This is dangerous for a Democracy.
-Trump is actively and constantly attacking the press. This is undermining the public trust in them. This is also manifested on this board. Try giving a youtube video from a segment of CNN here. People on the right will reject it out of hand, EVEN when the segment in question is Trump directly speaking in an interview. A country were information can be discredited so easily and so completely is not a healthy Democracy.
-Trump is not only completely and utterly uninformed about foreign policy. He's also uninterested in learning anything about it. Not only that but he routinely rejects the advice of those people who are informed and instead goes by what he calls his instincts. Foreign policy is not only complex it's also far reaching and potentially deadly. Winging that is dangerous.

I could do more but lets start here.

Well it seems to be a really good thing that WE ARE NOT A FUCKING DEMOCRACY. You commies just can't seem to figure that simple shit out.

.

 

[forkup]

First, let me thank you for the thread and your input. You said:

-Trump has given rise to a political nihilism that is a clear threat to the health of a Democracy.
This is manifested daily on this board. Countless times I've seen posters on the right refer to establishment, deep state or something similar as an enemy that Trump is destroying. What it is actually doing is undermining public trust in every institution that doesn't blindly follows Trump. This is dangerous for a Democracy.

Nihilism (Merriam-Webster):

1a: a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless. Nihilism is a condition in which all ultimate values lose their value.— Ronald H. Nash
b: a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths

2a: a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility.

I don't think Trump has said or done anything to satisfy the above definition, not even close unless you've got a different definition of what you mean by 'political nihilism'. Do you really think Trump is trying to destroy the political establishment or deep state? Do you not believe that every federal gov't agency has a higher duty to country than to a political party or ideology? Should he not be trying to determine if there were people an agencies who were acting in ways that conflicted with that higher duty?

You know what I think is dangerous to democracy? NOT trying to determine if such actions were taken. This isn't about blindly following Trump, this is about finding out if, when, how, and who might've made decisions and done things that were less than impartial, if not illegal. I'm curious, do you really think that the Special Counsel that investigated the Russian Collusion in the 2016 election was done in a fair and impartial way? You know how Clinton was treated and how Trump was treated, are you going to tell me it was equal treatment? What evidence did they have concerning the Trump campaign beyond the Steele Dossier? Why shouldn't he be royally pissed about that?

As for undermining public trust, that was happening long before Trump came along. From Fast and Furious to Benghazi, to the IRS targeting conservative groups to the Iran nuclear deal to the Paris Climate Accords to name a few, public trust in our gov't agencies has been going downhill for quite awhile. I think the best way to restore public trust is to find out who did what and prosecute or get rid of those who were shall we say somewhat less than honorable in the performance of their duties. No change means we got the same assholes using their political office for personal or partisan purposes, and that's gotta change. What the hell do you think Trump got elected in the first place, even though his favorable/unfavorable poll numbers were upside down.

Just getting started here. More to follow.

a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless.

I don't think Trump has said or done anything to satisfy the above definition

You don't? At the moment Trump has made more than 10000 untruths. Some of them incredibly blatant. The only excuse I can find that is made for that is that all politicians lie. Throughout the Mueller probe Trump and his surrogates have made the claim that collusion isn't a crime. Like something being criminal is the only thing that makes something wrong. I've seen Trump go after war heroes (McCain). Go after the parents of a killed soldier. Say that second amendment people should go after his political rival. Etc. Etc.
Trump has broken so many accepted norms from presidents that people who support him. Don't seem to accept there are any rules, written or otherwise that should govern a presidents behavior. This leads to posts like this

Because those who are informed have done such a wonderful job...not.

You mention a whole bunch of things that you consider previous scandals. The truth is that those would hardly register on a particularly busy news week.

 

[boedicca]

Yep, the more Trump demonizes those on the Democrat side, the more his followers will demonize them as well. We see it daily on these boards.

That's absolutely DEPLORABLE and BITTERLY CLINGY.

 

[forkup]

"-Trump is actively and constantly attacking the press. This is undermining the public trust in them. This is also manifested on this board. Try giving a youtube video from a segment of CNN here. People on the right will reject it out of hand, EVEN when the segment in question is Trump directly speaking in an interview. A country were information can be discredited so easily and so completely is not a healthy Democracy."

You don't think the press has been attacking Trump non-stop, ever since he became a possible nominee? You don't think the public trust in the press/media is deserved by their own actions? Really? You must know that somewhere around 95% of the coverage on Trump is negative, are you going to tell me they've been fair and impartial? So tell me, when did Trump's DoJ secretly obtained months of telephone records of AP reporters and editors? Obama's DoJ did that back in 2013. When did Trump's Atty General approve surveillance of a news reporter, without a warrant? He didn't, but Eric Holder did.

When did Trump's White House close events, for a time to all but the official photographer. Obama barred the media from events — including, ironically, an award ceremony where he was recognized for “transparency” — and often restricted photographers’ access, only releasing images taken by the official White House photographer.

I remember when the Obama administration targeted Fox News for isolation and marginalization, arguing that it was not a legitimate news organization but “the research arm or the communications arm of the Republican Party.” They tried to exclude Fox News from a news teleconference I think it was. But the other news organization wouldn't participate if Fox News was not included, and that ended that.

The Obama administration “set a record” for failing to provide information requested by the press and the public under the Freedom of Information Act. Something like over 70% of the FOIA requests were denied. And went for months without doing a single press conference, maybe that's not attacking the press but it ain't doing their image any favors either. Trump doesn't like negative coverage, no wonder he bitches about it. But he hasn't actually attacked them like Obama did.

A healthy democracy does require a free press, but it also requires a fair and impartial presentation of the news, which today's press does not do in large part unless you're a democrat. Outlets like CNN and MSNBC are not checking their sources and getting confirmations before running negative stories about Trump. They're running unsubstantiated stories against the president that in many cases turn out to be false. So IMHO the press fully deserves the loss of public trust their getting.

Let's start by saying that at no point did Obama say the press is the enemy of the people. And although he sometimes had an antagonistic relationship with some of them he didn't call anything he didn't like fake. This is what he did and didn't do.
FACT CHECK: Did Obama Block Fox News Reporters from White House Press Conferences?
Please give me all the statements Obama gave in 8 years attacking the press. I'll go on Trump's twitter account and check this last week. How much you want to bet that I can find more statements on a single medium were Trump attacks the press in one week? By the way, you complain that 95 percent of the press on Trump is negative? You yourself concede he's a jerk and probably shouldn't be POTUS. Does it occur to you that one might have something to do with the other?

 

[forkup]

" -Trump is not only completely and utterly uninformed about foreign policy. He's also uninterested in learning anything about it. Not only that but he routinely rejects the advice of those people who are informed and instead goes by what he calls his instincts. Foreign policy is not only complex it's also far reaching and potentially deadly. Winging that is dangerous."

You don't know if he's 'completely and utterly uninformed' about foreign policy or anything else. You don't know if he's uninterested in learning about it, or that he routinely rejects the advice of those around him. Truth is, you don't know a damn thing about it, you're taking somebody else's opinions or statements at face value because it fits your narrative. You read somebody's book that portrays him negatively and accepted all of it as gospel truth. My guess is, there are some people telling him to do this and others telling him to do that. So he makes the call and somebody like you ups and says he's ignoring the advice of informed people around him.

Funny, he hasn't got us into a new war yet. I don't see where his foreign policy decisions have been all that disastrous. 2 years in, where's the 1st fuck-up?

James Mattis' resignation letter in full
This is a guy who knows what he's talking about. Was in the administration and felt strongly enough to write this letter. Do you have any reason to doubt this source?

You have reason to doubt this?
Trump attacks intel chiefs after they contradict him on Iran, North Korea, ISIS
or this

this maybe?
This is what we call primary sources.
As to he hasn't started a war and his policies haven't been dissastrous. The US is now at odds with it's traditional allies. Iran that had a deal to stop it's nuclear program, just informed the EU they would start it up again because of the reimposing of sanctions. N-Korea just started testing new nuclear weapons delivery systems. After Trump was kind enough the legitimize Kim by having 2 summit meetings with him. Oh and he is imposing tariffs left and right, hurting GDP growth without it seems any plan to deescalate. So please explain his successes?

 

[forkup]

An addendum: I'm not going to argue that Trump isn't a total jerk. He has his personality and character flaws just like everyone else and probably should not be the POTUS. But he is the POTUS whether anyone else likes it or not, and the real truth is that the blame and responsibility for the dysfunctional gov't we have today rests with all of us to some degree. Don't give me this crap that it's all Trump's fault, that's a load of BS. The lack of trust in the gov't at every level has been earned long before Trump appeared, and is in fact one of the reasons why he got elected in the first place. And that goes for the distrust of the media/press too, they have created it themselves through a lack of honesty and integrity.

None of which is an existential threat to this country, that is a total hyperbole that represents the desire on both sides of the political spectrum to demonize the other. There is as yet no Constitutional crisis unless we create one, and Trump ain't it. However, it sure looks like we are headed in the wrong direction these days with so much divisiveness and intolerance. And that too is a problem for which we all share in the blame, including Trump. Stop looking around for somebody else to blame because they don't agree with you. It is my hope that one day people will stop looking for someone to point fingers at and instead start looking for common ground and solutions that might not be perfect but nonetheless are in the best interests of the country as a whole. Doesn't look like that'll happen anytime soon though.

An addendum: I'm not going to argue that Trump isn't a total jerk. He has his personality and character flaws just like everyone else and probably should not be the POTUS. But he is the POTUS whether anyone else likes it or not, and the real truth is that the blame and responsibility for the dysfunctional gov't we have today rests with all of us to some degree. Don't give me this crap that it's all Trump's fault, that's a load of BS. The lack of trust in the gov't at every level has been earned long before Trump appeared, and is in fact one of the reasons why he got elected in the first place. And that goes for the distrust of the media/press too, they have created it themselves through a lack of honesty and integrity.

None of which is an existential threat to this country, that is a total hyperbole that represents the desire on both sides of the political spectrum to demonize the other. There is as yet no Constitutional crisis unless we create one, and Trump ain't it. However, it sure looks like we are headed in the wrong direction these days with so much divisiveness and intolerance. And that too is a problem for which we all share in the blame, including Trump. Stop looking around for somebody else to blame because they don't agree with you. It is my hope that one day people will stop looking for someone to point fingers at and instead start looking for common ground and solutions that might not be perfect but nonetheless are in the best interests of the country as a whole. Doesn't look like that'll happen anytime soon though.

This is an exactly what I was calling political nihilism.

I'm not going to argue that Trump isn't a total jerk. He has his personality and character flaws just like everyone else and probably should not be the POTUS.

You acknowledge he is morally and mentally unfit for the office and in the same breath you say this

But he is the POTUS whether anyone else likes it or not

This is an existential threat. Because if you aren't willing to judge or condemn the president when you feel this way, what else will you allow him to do. The answer is this.

By the way this was an applause line.

 

[percysunshine]

I suspect Donald Trump is an extraterrestrial....prove me wrong.

 

[task0778]

An addendum: I'm not going to argue that Trump isn't a total jerk. He has his personality and character flaws just like everyone else and probably should not be the POTUS. But he is the POTUS whether anyone else likes it or not, and the real truth is that the blame and responsibility for the dysfunctional gov't we have today rests with all of us to some degree. Don't give me this crap that it's all Trump's fault, that's a load of BS. The lack of trust in the gov't at every level has been earned long before Trump appeared, and is in fact one of the reasons why he got elected in the first place. And that goes for the distrust of the media/press too, they have created it themselves through a lack of honesty and integrity.

None of which is an existential threat to this country, that is a total hyperbole that represents the desire on both sides of the political spectrum to demonize the other. There is as yet no Constitutional crisis unless we create one, and Trump ain't it. However, it sure looks like we are headed in the wrong direction these days with so much divisiveness and intolerance. And that too is a problem for which we all share in the blame, including Trump. Stop looking around for somebody else to blame because they don't agree with you. It is my hope that one day people will stop looking for someone to point fingers at and instead start looking for common ground and solutions that might not be perfect but nonetheless are in the best interests of the country as a whole. Doesn't look like that'll happen anytime soon though.

An addendum: I'm not going to argue that Trump isn't a total jerk. He has his personality and character flaws just like everyone else and probably should not be the POTUS. But he is the POTUS whether anyone else likes it or not, and the real truth is that the blame and responsibility for the dysfunctional gov't we have today rests with all of us to some degree. Don't give me this crap that it's all Trump's fault, that's a load of BS. The lack of trust in the gov't at every level has been earned long before Trump appeared, and is in fact one of the reasons why he got elected in the first place. And that goes for the distrust of the media/press too, they have created it themselves through a lack of honesty and integrity.

None of which is an existential threat to this country, that is a total hyperbole that represents the desire on both sides of the political spectrum to demonize the other. There is as yet no Constitutional crisis unless we create one, and Trump ain't it. However, it sure looks like we are headed in the wrong direction these days with so much divisiveness and intolerance. And that too is a problem for which we all share in the blame, including Trump. Stop looking around for somebody else to blame because they don't agree with you. It is my hope that one day people will stop looking for someone to point fingers at and instead start looking for common ground and solutions that might not be perfect but nonetheless are in the best interests of the country as a whole. Doesn't look like that'll happen anytime soon though.

This is an exactly what I was calling political nihilism.

I'm not going to argue that Trump isn't a total jerk. He has his personality and character flaws just like everyone else and probably should not be the POTUS.

You acknowledge he is morally and mentally unfit for the office and in the same breath you say this

But he is the POTUS whether anyone else likes it or not

This is an existential threat. Because if you aren't willing to judge or condemn the president when you feel this way, what else will you allow him to do. The answer is this.

By the way this was an applause line.

Thanks for your time and effort. Have a nice day.

 

[forkup]

I suspect Donald Trump is an extraterrestrial....prove me wrong.

Argument from Ignorance