Armenian Genocide

[ekrem]

yes, good-night.. here it is 7 morning... good-night.

 

[Said1]

yes, good-night.. here it is 7 morning... good-night.

7am! It's midnight here.

 

[ekrem]

THE STANCE TAKEN BY SCHOLARS TO ALLEGATIONS OF GENOCIDE

The scientists, who perceive the history within the scientific principles, have reached the original copies and documents relating to the issue since 1925 until today, have listened to living witnesses and have made individual observations at the locations of the events. These are the scientists, who knew that the Ottoman archives were open to the researchers since 1925 and who themselves reached the documents. Therefore, only those who are as knowledgeable on this issue as they can comment on or can object to their views. For this reason, the report submitted by 69 American scientists to the members of the Assembly of Representatives in relation with the issue has great importance. (1)

�To the attention of the Members of USA Assembly of Representatives

The Turkish, Ottoman researches and the American Academicians specialized in Middle East, whose signatures are put hereunder, have agreed that the language used in decree number 192 by USA Assembly of Representatives is misleading and / or wrong in many points.

�Although we fully support the concept of �National Day of Commemorating Inhuman Behaviors�, we find the following part, in this text, unacceptable:

�. 1.5 million Armenian � originated people, who have been the victims of the genocide made in Turkey between 1915 and 1923 ��

Our disagreement focuses on the use of he words �Turkey� and �genocide� and may be summarized as follows:

From the 14th century until 1922, the area, which is called Turkey, more correctly as the �Republic of Turkey� today, was a part of the Ottoman Empire, which was a multi � religion and multi � national state. Just as it is wrong to accept the Habsburg Empire to be equivalent to the Republic of Austria of today, it is also wrong to accept the Ottoman Empire to be equivalent of to the Republic of Turkey. The Ottoman Empire, which exited from the history stage in 1922 with the Turkish Revolution gave birth to the establishment of current Republic of Turkey in 1923, was a state, which kept the lands of more than 25 states, over Southeastern Europe, Northern Africa and Middle East. The Republic of Turkey was only one of them can not be held responsible for any events that happened in the Ottoman period. But the ones, who have written the decree, wanted to give the responsibility of the �genocide� between 1915 and 1923 to Turkey by using the name �Turkey�.

As for the genocide accusation, no one, who has signed this paper, have the purpose of underrating the dimensions of the pains that the Armenians have suffered. Likewise, we have the opinion that the pains of the Muslim public in the mentioned region can not be assessed in any other way. The evidences put forward until now point out that an internal war between the communities (between the Muslim and Christian groups) has become more complex with the hunger, epidemics and the massacres and pains in and around Anatolia during the first World War. In fact, during those years, a continuous war has been suffered in the region that is not so different from the tragedy going on in Lebanon in the last decade. The losses of both the Muslim and the Christian nations are big numbers. However, there are many documents and findings that the historians must reach in order to determine the reasons of the events that resulted in the death of the Eastern Anatolian public, which includes many Christians as well as Muslims.

History is created by the statesmen and the politicians and it is written by the scientists. For the operation of this process, the scientists must be given the chance to reach the written records of the former statesmen and politicians. Until now, a big part of the archives related with this issue in the Soviet Union, Syria, Bulgaria and Turkey have been kept closed to the historians. Until these archives are reached, the history of the Ottoman Empire between 1915 � 1923 in the scope of the decree of the Assembly of Representatives numbered 192 can not be completely known.

We believe that USA Congress should encourage the full opening of the history archives relating to the issue and should not make any accusations until the historical events are fully brought into light. The accusations such as the ones in the decree number 192 of the Assembly of Representatives would unavoidably result in unfair decisions about Turkey and maybe damaging the improvement, which the historians started to record in understanding these tragic events.

As shown by the comments herein above, the history of the Ottoman � Armenians is an issue that is frequently debated among the historians and many of the historians do not share the expressions in the decree number 192. In case the congress adopts this decree, it will have tried to decide which part of the historical problem is true through laws. Such a decision basing on assumptions that are historically doubtful gives harm to the honest historical research and damages the reliability of the American legislation process.

May 19 1985

Prof. Bernard Lewis
Middle East History, Princeton University


Prof. Dr. Rifaat Abou � El � Haj
History, California State University
[/B]

Prof. Roderic Davison
History, George Washington University

Ass. Prof. Sarah Moment Atis
Turkish Language and Literature, Wisconsin University


Distinguished Prof. Walter Denny
Art History and Near East Researches, Massachussets University

Ass. Prof. Darl Barbir
History, Siena Institution (New York)


Dr. Alan Duben
Anthropologist, Researcher, New York

Ilhan BASGÖZ
Ural � Altay Studies Division, Turkish Researches Program Director, Indiana University


Ass. Prof. Ellen Ervin
Turkish Researches, New York University


Prof. Daniel G. Hates
Anthropology, New York City University


Prof. Caesar Farah
Islam and Middle East History, Minnesota University

Prof. Ülkü Bates
Art History, New York City University


Prf. Carter Findley
History, Ohio State University

Prof. Gustav Bayerle
Ural � Altay Studies, Indiana University


Prof. Michael Finefrock
History, Charleston Institution

Prof. Andreas G. E. Bodroglifetti
Turkish and Iran Languages, California University


Ass. Prof. William Hickman
Turkish, California Berkeley University

Ass. Prof. Kathleen Burril
Turkish Researches, Columbia University


Ass. Prof. Frederick Latimer
History, Utah University

Prof. Alan Fisher
History, Michigan University


Prof. John Hymes
History, Glenville State Institution

Prof. Timothy Childs
Teacher, Johns Hopkins University


Dr. Health W. Lowry
Turkish Research Institution Inc. Washington D.C.


Prof. Shafiga Daulet
Political Science, Connecticut University


Prof. Halil Inalcik
Ottoman History, American Art & Science Academy Member, Chicago University

Ass. Prof. Ralph Jaeckel
Turkish, California University


Ass. Prof. Ezel Kural Shaw
History, California University

Ass. Prof. Ronald Jennings
History & Asian Researches, Illinois University


Prof. John Masson Simth, JR
History, California Berkeley University

Ass. Prof. Cornell Fleischer
History, Washington University


Dr. Svat Soucek
Turkologist, New York

Prof. Peter Golden
History, Rutgers University


Dr. Philip Soddard
Middle East Institute Director, Washington D.C.

Prof. Tom Goodrich
History, Indiana University


Prof. Frank Tachau
Political Science, Chicago, Illinois University


Dr. Andrew Could
Ottoman History, Arizona, Flagstaff


Robert Staab
Middle East Center Vice Director, Utah University

Prof. William Griswold
History, Colorado State University


Prof. Rhoads Murphey
Middle East Languages, Cultures and History, Columbia University


Prof. Tibor Halasi � Kuv
Turkish Researches, Columbia Professor


Ass. Prof. June Starr
Anthropology, Suny Stony Brook

Distinguished Prof. J.C. Hurewitz
Former Director of Middle East Institute, Columbia University


Prof. James Stewart Robinson
Turkish researches, Michigan University

Prof. Avgdorlevy
History, Brandens University


Prof. Thomas Naff
History, Middle East Researches Institute Director, Pennsylvania University

Prof. Bernard Lew�is
Middle East History, Princeton University


Ass. Prof. John Woods
Middle East History, Chicago University

Ass. Prof. Justin Mc Carthy
History, Louisville University


Prof. Pierre Oberling
History, New York CityUniversity

Prof. Jon Mandaville
Middle East History, Portland State University


Ass. Prof. Madeline Zilfi
History, Maryland University

Prof. Michael Meeker
Anthropology, California University


Prof. Metin Tamkoc
International Law, Texas Tech. University

Ass. Prof. James Kelly
Turkish, Utah University


Prof. Stanford Shaw
History, California University

Ass. Ass. Prof. Kerim Bey
Southeastern University


Dr. Elaine Simth
Turkish History, Retired

Foreign Affairs Officer
Prof. Metin Kunt Ottoman History, New York


Ass. Prof. David Thomas
History, Rhode Island Institute

Ass. Prof. William Ochsenwald
History, Virginia Polytechnic Institute


Ass. Prof. Grace M. Simth
History, California Berkeley university

Ass. Prof. Robert Olson
History, Kentucky University


Ass. Prof. Margaret L.Venzke
History, Dickinson Institute (Pennsylvania)

Ass. Prof. William Peachy
Jewish and Near East Languages & Literatures, Ohio State University


E. Prof. Donald Webster
Turkish History

Ass. Prof. Donald Quataert
History, Houston University


Prof. Walter Weiker
Political Science, Rutgers University

Prof. Howard Reed
History, Connecticut University


Prof. Warren S .Walker
English, Turkish Oral

Stories Archive Director,
Texas Tech. University

Prof. Dank Wart Rustow
Political Science, New York City University





Invitations have been made by Turkey at different times in order to discuss the correctness of the documents put forward by the Armenians and the Armenian pretensions supported by the Western European Countries and Russia. These calls have been both directed at to the Armenian scientists and to the people, who have undertaken the Armenian propaganda. However, an important part of these people did not participate the meeting without showing any reasons. The last example of this condition has been set in the 11th Turkish History Congress that gathered in 1990.

For the first time, an �Armenian Section� had been programmed in the 11th Turkish history Congress and the foreign historians who have been �Armenian struggle Supporters� have been invited to the discussions in this section, but each of them using various excuses avoided participating in these scientific discussions.

The list of the foreign scientists invited to the 11th Turkish History Congress, held in Ankara between September 5th � 9th 1990, in relation with the Armenian problem, is given hereunder:

Prof. Dr. Heath LOWRY (participated)

Garin ZEDLIAN (did not answer)

Prof. Dr. Bernard LEWIS (could not participate)

Prof. Dr. Justin McCARTHY (participated)

Prof. Dr. Stanford SHAW (participated)

Prof. Dr. Anthony BRYER (Did not answer)

Dr. Andrew MANGO (participated)

Prof. Dr. Salahi R. SONYEL (participated)

Prof. Dr. M. MARMURA (did not answer)

Prof. Dr. Allan CUNNINGHAM (did not answer)

Prof. Dr. Robert ANCIAUX (participated)

Prof. Dr. Aryeh SHMUELEVITZ (participated)

Prof. Dr. Jak YAKAR (participated)

Prof. Dr. Hans G. MAJER (could not participate)

Prof. Dr. Wolf Dietrich HUTTEROTH (did not answer)

Prof. Dr. Klaus KREISER (could not participate)

Prof. Dr. Jean � Paul ROUX (did not answer)

Prof. Dr. Paul DUMONT (participated)

Prof. Dr. Robert MANTRAN (could not participate)

Prof. Dr. Richard HOVANNISIAN (did not answer)

Dr. Gerard LIBARDIAN (did not answer)

Dr. Levon MARASHLIAN (participated)

Prof. Dr. Vahakn DADRIAN (did not answer)

Christopher WALKER (could not participate)

Anahid Ter MIMASSIAN (could not participate)

Tessa HOFFMAN (did not answer)





http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/relocation/stance.html



HISTORY should be made by Historicians and Professors, not by Politicians.

 

[Said1]

Ok, I''m awake, and have re-read some of this thread.

Said, there were Deportations yes. but remember turkey was at war in every 4 direction. English, French, Russian, Arabs.
We lost our whole empire.

This was danger for germans and there Bagdad-Bahn, as it went through Eastern Anatolia, where mainly Armenians lived.

There were also rebellions, as well as those who might sympathise with them. The Armenians were the biggest percieved threat to the Turks and Germans, elimination is a common MO of both Germans and Turks pre and post dating 1915.

Last Ottoman sultan were puppet of Germans.

Denial and abolstion of guilt, it was the Germans protecting their interests, which relied on the empire staying intact without external powers aiding the Aremenians, who were the biggest internal threats to their interests. Elimination of this threat would fall in line with protection of German assests etc and Turkish interests in retaining their empire. I don't deny German involvement in Turkey at that time, however, it does not take away from the suposed threat the Armenians posed to either party and the desire to remove this threat held by both parties.

Sources:

Ministry of Culture
http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/port...sp?belgeno=3346

Where would I find an legitimate Amenian consenus?

Armenian massacres on Azerbaycan-Turks

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/port...sp?belgeno=3347

This is off topic.

that state archives are falsified by turks?

Why not? You are offering these documents without further supporting the materials.

Where is the evidence of Armenian property (homes, businesses etc) being returned to them after the Abandoned Property law was retracted? Turkey didn't follow through after signing the Treaty of Sevres, so a document stating intent is not really valid?

With that said, I'm sure you know serious scholars understand that individual government archives rarely contain the whole truth. Governments, (which as you said are run by politicians not historians), will often try to cover their tracks. The guilty are not often partial to offering evidence proving their guilt. Why were they closed until the late 80's? Not all documents are availabel on line, or permitable to review when requested by historians. Do you see where I'm going with this?

French, Russian and Armenian not...They only accuse not prove.

Firstly, disinformation was organized and carried out by colonial powers in order conceal the truth, especially on behalf of the Russians after the revolution, so the same argument stated above can be applied here. Secondly, Euro archives are not fully closed to the public, although I doubt anyone is granted full view of everything, not unlike the situtaion with Turkish archives. Thirdly, Armenian archives are not closed, there are probably dozens upon dozens of doctoral papers and other works focusing on Turkish, Kurdish and Armenian nationalist parties during the final decades of the Ottoman Empire, although open access to all documents is probably not permissable as in the above cases. I have not seen the Armenian documents, however, I will not blindly take your word stating that documentention relating to the events of 1915 are fraudulent.

Why have Armenians never took Turks to court then? when they have proofs?

I don't know, weren't some tried by a Turkish tribunal and others held by the British in Malta then released in exchanged for captive Brit soldiers. The proceeding war(s) after the Treaty of Severs was scrapped and replaced with the Treaty of Lusannes (sp??) could have influenced their non-action in persuing their claims in internatinal courts.

 

[ekrem]

Said1 that is the problem when you say to me, give me reliable sources from armenian side like i gave with turkish Ministry of culture.

Armenians say Genocide, we say: no genocide but massacres including over 500.000 Turkish/Kurdish-origin citizen.

and when you say Armenian Archives are open, that is not true.
--> http://www.yektan.org/



There are only a handfull states that have recognized Armenian view.
These are France, Poland and Switzerland.


Switzerland for example has Law that says that people who deny Genocide have to go to jail.
A Turkish Secretary of Political Rightist Party "Dogu Perincek" went to Switzerland and gave there a Press-conference saying "No Arenians were genocided"...

He wanted to provoke his court hearing, so that it comes to an Court judgement in an 3rd Country in these Armenian accusations.
So all accuses and defenders will be heared in an 3rd country Switzerland by Court...

But what did Switzerland do ? allthough it is not allowed in Switzerland to deny Genocide?
Switzerland let fall the court hearing. Why, when they have laws to jail people deying Genocide.

Instead of Jailing him, swiss senate withdraw A Draft On So-called Armenian Genocide From Swiss Senate
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=64534

and

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=17468



did you read my last post? regarding those international Historicians and Professors?

 

[Said1]

Yes I did read your last post

I don't disagree that numbers may have been exagerated (both by the Armenians AND Turks), their arguing about semantics, and haven't reached an agreement due to lack of archival documents from all nations, including Turkey. I'm not sure what this information is supposed to prove.

Also, regarding the second list of names, I know a few who did not participate were not in favor of Armenina's version of what happened (for whatever reason).
And Levon Marashlian was also present and active in defending his position on Armenian genocided. Very misleading information, since it leads one to assume all those absent were in support of Armenian history, when this wasn't the case.

And:

HISTORY should be made by Historicians and Professors, not by Politicians.

Why do you keep screaming this over and over, I've never said anything that would not fall in line with that statement.

 

[ekrem]

Yes, after defeat of Ottoman Empire, Brits trialed in MAlta at court...


http://www.meforum.org/article/748/

Revisiting the Armenian Genocide
by Prof. Guenter Lewy (University Massachusetts)



this is really worth knowing.

 

[ekrem]

Yes I did read your last post

I don't disagree that numbers may have been exagerated (both by the Armenians AND Turks), their arguing about semantics, and haven't reached an agreement due to lack of archival documents from all nations, including Turkey. I'm not sure what this information is supposed to prove.

Also, regarding the second list of names, I know a few who did not participate were not in favor of Armenina's version of what happened (for whatever reason).
And Levon Marashlian was also present and active in defending his position on Armenian genocided. Very misleading information, since it leads one to assume all those absent were in support of Armenian history, when this wasn't the case.

And:

Why do you keep screaming this over and over, I've never said anything that would not fall in line with that statement.

I have posted this historicians list to show you, that there are international Historicians+Professors who back Armenian Version on one side and Turkish Version on the other side....




So this situation is not clear.

 

[Said1]

Said1 that is the problem when you say to me, give me reliable sources from armenian side like i gave with turkish Ministry of culture.

Armenians say Genocide, we say: no genocide but massacres including over 500.000 Turkish/Kurdish-origin citizen.

I didn't say Armenian source, I say "legitimate" source containing valid Armenian statistics from that period....census on population, deaths etc. One you like.

and when you say Armenian Archives are open, that is not true.
--> http://www.yektan.org/

They are as open as yours, too bad this guy is sitting in jail for what appears to be very shaky grounds..

 

[ekrem]

Why do you keep screaming this over and over, I've never said anything that would not fall in line with that statement.

because this accusations are historicians work.

Bernhard Lewis, Professor at Princeton University also being a reference in Middle East cases is being courted by France allthough he is Historician

http://www.princeton.edu/~nes/faculty_lewis.html



anf here is the link France judgeing him, because he says there was no genocide.
http://users.ids.net/~gregan/lewis.html


Why have world-known Professors have to be taken to court for their researches allthough they are Professors and can prove it ?



Because France does not want Turkey in EU and is instrumentalizing this Historical Question for political motives.
France made hisself Genocide in Algeria and is not ispecting and apologizing their own history. They have nothing to tell us.
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/actu/article.gb.asp?ART=49238

http://www.francewatcher.org/2005/05/the_world_at_wa.html



France "should be charged" for Rwanda Genocide
http://www.francewatcher.org/2005/04/call_for_french.html





But on the other Hand France is saying to Algeria accusations::
leave it to Historicians
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=18670



But when it comes to Turks, they have double-stadards because of political Interests turkey not joing EU.

 

[ekrem]

sorry, double.

 

[Said1]

because this accusations are historicians work.

Bernhard Lewis, Professor at Princeton University also being a reference in Middle East cases is being courted by France allthough he is Historician

http://www.princeton.edu/~nes/faculty_lewis.html[/



anf here is the link France judgeing him, because he says there was no genocide.
http://users.ids.net/~gregan/lewis.html


Why have world-known Professors have to be taken to court for their researches allthough they are Professors and can prove it ?



Because France does not want Turkey in EU and is instrumentalizing this Historical Question for political motives.

I'm not refutting historians, I understand they have to work with what is there combined with eye witness accounts which may or may not be verifyable.

Lewis on the other hand is probably old enough to remember.

 

[ekrem]

yes, sorry. i am not throwing this to your head or saying you deny that...

i only show this for a better understanding the whole situation.

 

[ekrem]

This is the only link i can provide from "Turkish National Archives" which are held in englisch language regarding deportation of armenians.

http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/Armenians_inottoman/ottoman_armenian.htm


And the main site:
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/


the Englisch Translation of Documents is under construction

 

[William Joyce]

"I have placed my death-head formations in readiness - for the present only in the East - with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion , men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" - Adolf Hitler to Wehrmacht commanders on August 22, 1939, twelve days before the German invasion of Poland

http://www.historywiz.com/annihilation.htm

-

Hitler was right about a lot of things, but this especially. The ol' bastard could have easily predicted that any move against the Jews would, in time, come to displace the plight of any other people. And so it has been. Only Jews are allowed to speak of their persecution. Everyone else is chopped liver.

 

[ekrem]

Hitler was right about a lot of things, but this especially. The ol' bastard could have easily predicted that any move against the Jews would, in time, come to displace the plight of any other people. And so it has been. Only Jews are allowed to speak of their persecution. Everyone else is chopped liver.

Hitler is a big lie as i said before in this thread.
The idea, of course, is to link the “Armenian cause” to that of the Jewish victims of W.W. II, so that public opinion can more readily swallow the idea of a genocide.

-->
Politically, "Hitler" is a magic word that conjures up an all too true image of undisputed evil. He is quoted on the Armenian Question for polemic and political purpose, to tie the Turks to Hitler's evil. In the modern world nothing defames so well as associating your enemies with Hitler. This is all absurdity, but it is potent absurdity that convinces those who know nothing of the facts. It is also a deliberate distortion of history.

Professor
Justin McCarthy



HISTORIAN OF ARMENIAN DESCENT SAYS FREQUENTLY USED HITLER QUOTE IS NOTHING BUT A FORGERY
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/hitler-quote.htm


The Hitler Quote and the Nuremberg Trials
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/hitler-quote.htm





"The Armenians want to play on the sentiments of the Jewish Holocaust and purport that Adolf Hitler made this quotation in a speech regarding his planned annihilation of the European Jews... The problem with this linkage is that there is no proof that Hitler ever made such a statement. It is claimed that he referred to the Armenians in the manner cited above, while delivering a secret talk to members of his General Staff, a week prior to his attack on Poland. However, there is no reference to the Armenians in the original texts of the two Hitler speeches delivered on August 22, 1939, published as the official texts in the reliable Nuremberg documents."
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/articles/article10.html

 

[Unkotare]

Excellent, detailed presentation on Armenian Genocide 1915.

THEFORGOTTEN.ORG

And now?