Arizona Senate Passes Bill Allowing Business Owners To Refuse Service To Gays

[Wry Catcher]

I think another state passed something similar to this last week so this must be a trend that is catching on. I agree with this bill that if you are a business owner and believe in and live by your faith that you should be able to refuse service to whoever you want.


Arizona Senate: Business owners can cite religion to refuse service to gays
Arizona Senate: Business owners can cite religion to refuse service to gays

While there are no laws which prohibit individual bigotry, and the law in Arizona is likely legal, the fact that remains that it violates the Spirit of America. Or, as in the words of Jefferson,

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"

The gay and lesbian community has been denied their unalienable right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and they choose not to abolish our government - as some in the far right hope to do - but to alter it with non violent protests and petitions to enjoy the same rights the rest of us enjoy by law, and by the real ethos of what it means to be an American. Those people who voted on a law in Arizona to deny equal access to happiness and freedom to this select group of citizens are not real Americans nor are they patriots.

 

[Silhouette]

If you offer those services to the public, yes, I do.

End of discussion.

Not if your demand violates a core edict of the christian faith. You cannot command a christian to violate the mandates and warnings of Jude 1 and Romans 1 in the Bible. You're going to run into a bump on this one Jake. A big bump called "The 1st Amendment"...

 

[Bombur]

If you offer those services to the public, yes, I do.

End of discussion.

Not if your demand violates a core edict of the christian faith. You cannot command a christian to violate the mandates and warnings of Jude 1 and Romans 1 in the Bible. You're going to run into a bump on this one Jake. A big bump called "The 1st Amendment"...

Your understanding of the Christian faith is weak.

You are not being forced to do anything. The law only pertains to people who have decided to take part in a certain type of interaction.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Not if your demand violates a core edict of the christian faith.

If you think this is " a core edict of the Christian faith", you know very little about the Christian faith. I'm sorry that your instruction in the faith has fallen to those who have tried to bastardize the faith for their own political purposes.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You fail to accept the concept that money is money.

I appreciate that you seek to save a fellow leftist from humiliation, but that won't salvage him.

A real painting contractor assesses every job before entering a contract to perform the task. Many factors MUST be considered, including the attitude of the homeowner. All contractors turn down jobs. It could be because of scheduling, could be because of materials, or a host of other reasons. No business operates like your blowhard little buddy claims.

I'd invest in PaintMyHouse's business long before I'd consider yours.

You seem to think morality pays the rent.

You're just a partisan hack on a message board. If real money were involved, your whole attitude would change instantly.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Tell you what, hire me to paint your house on those terms, I dare you.

S2E07 05 Go Ahead, Eat It

This is why intelligent people don't try to force people to do business with them in the name of equality.

If you don't understand how business is actually done then you aren't hired. And believe me, the first business to play games with the food for the gays will find out, in short order, that it is no longer a business and that the new owners now fly a rainbow flag outside. If you knew what really happens in a restaurant kitchen, you wouldn't eat there.

I understand exactly how business works. I also understand human beings, which is why I will never force anyone who I think hates me to work for me.

I generally wouldn't either but I'll still buy gas from them and have them as clients. The local Christian bookstore doesn't keep me out, it would be stupid if they did, but if they knew the real me they'd start collecting sticks for the fire. Remember, it's just business, that's all.

 

[Iceweasel]

Business is fine. My customers are dumb, like you, which is why they need me. About one in ten of them I would consider for a friend. The rest pay their bills so I take care of them. It's business, that's all.

In my 27 years of business I've never even heard of a guy with your attitude.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I suspect that you have no clue how unlikely it is that people will give up their rights for a secular one, either. There is no such thing as a one sided coin, my friend.

Our current secular state is what provides you with those rights. You are advocating a theocratic state that would deprive people of their rights.

[MENTION=42916]Derideo_Te[/MENTION]

I never said a word about supporting a "theocratic state." I, like you, believe in separation of church and state. I also believe that concept works both ways. Just because I was posting in conjunction with Kondor should not imply that I advocate a "theocratic state." Moreover, our current "secular state" is what's forcing pious businesspeople to act against their faith. So what rights do they have, perchance? Must you sacrifice your religious freedom to run a business?

You are trying to impose a theocratic state by supporting this wrongheaded discrimination.

Furthermore you cannot believe in the "separation of church and state" if you support this legislation because it is imposing religious beliefs on the state.

Your religious freedom ends where the rights of others begin. If you offer a service to the public you cannot discriminate. If you wish to keep yourself "pure" from the public then you are in the wrong line of work.

Let's put this as simply as we can. Prior to gay marriage how many cakes were made for weddings where one of the participants was a closeted gay? How many photographers took pictures of the married couple without knowing that one of them was gay? How many rooms were rented to gays?

To suddenly make this is an issue of "religious freedom" when it was never an issue before when gays were being served by businesses all the time is just idiotic. There is no legal basis for this invented special right of bogus "religious freedom". It never stopped anyone from taking money from gays before now.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You do not have an equal right to my services.

End of discussion.

If you offer those services to the public, yes, I do.

End of discussion.

You are limited ONLY to those services offered to the public. As providers become more and more sophisticated in avoidance techniques, the public offers will become more and more limited.

I think that is an excellent accomodation to remove your influence in public life.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Just keep lying to yourself, that''s why you lose. I might be Liberal but I'm also a Capitalist. That's the name of the game in this nation, and everyone plays.

You're a bullshitter.

You think you lend credibility to your leftist ideas by pretending to be a business owner.

You simply don't grasp that the idiocy you posts quickly reveals you to be a fraud.

You fail to accept the concept that money is money.

I'd invest in PaintMyHouse's business long before I'd consider yours.

You seem to think morality pays the rent.

Here's one who gets it, unlike most. Business is business. It's why I have churches and an anti-abortion pregnancy center as clients. They do the two necessary things, they call, and when I send them a bill they pay. That's American Business as it is supposed to be done and I enjoy cashing their checks.

I also consult for a nudist colony. That gets interesting at times but their cash is good as any.

 

[WorldWatcher]

If you don't understand how business is actually done then you aren't hired. And believe me, the first business to play games with the food for the gays will find out, in short order, that it is no longer a business and that the new owners now fly a rainbow flag outside. If you knew what really happens in a restaurant kitchen, you wouldn't eat there.

I understand exactly how business works. I also understand human beings, which is why I will never force anyone who I think hates me to work for me.

I generally wouldn't either but I'll still buy gas from them and have them as clients. The local Christian bookstore doesn't keep me out, it would be stupid if they did, but if they knew the real me, they'd start collecting sticks for the fire. Remember, it's just business, that's all.

I don't think people understand how this works really. I can't say in every case but we can use Elaine Photography, the famous one from New Mexico and Sweetcakes by Melissa (Oregon) the other well known case.

The couples involved don't sue the baker, florist, photographer. In these situations the leave and go find another outlet. What they do is file a complaint with the State agency designated to handle discrimination cases under the States Pubic Accommodation laws. That agency then investigates the event and issues a preliminary ruling. If the business contests the ruling then there is a hearing before an Administrative Judge who makes their recommendation, then it goes back to the agency for a final decision. A ruling against the business can then still be appealed in State court. As we saw with Elaine Photography those appeals can work their way all the way up to the State Supreme Court.

By the time this has happened people, the couple's wedding has already occurred. What happens to the business is they are fined or receive an slap on the wrist to "go forth and sin no more" (pun intended).

The couples aren't going to be eating a cake by the discriminatory baker.



>>>>

 

[Katzndogz]

I can see the day when a same sex couple contacts the town bakery and finds out they no longer offer wedding cakes at all. Neither does the bakery in the next Arizona town over, or the one after that. They can go all the way to Phoenix to find an accommodating bakery and they won't deliver 200 miles away.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

I understand exactly how business works. I also understand human beings, which is why I will never force anyone who I think hates me to work for me.

I generally wouldn't either but I'll still buy gas from them and have them as clients. The local Christian bookstore doesn't keep me out, it would be stupid if they did, but if they knew the real me, they'd start collecting sticks for the fire. Remember, it's just business, that's all.

I don't think people understand how this works really. I can't say in every case but we can use Elaine Photography, the famous one from New Mexico and Sweetcakes by Melissa (Oregon) the other well known case.

The couples involved don't sue the baker, florist, photographer. In these situations the leave and go find another outlet. What they do is file a complaint with the State agency designated to handle discrimination cases under the States Pubic Accommodation laws. That agency then investigates the event and issues a preliminary ruling. If the business contests the ruling then there is a hearing before an Administrative Judge who makes their recommendation, then it goes back to the agency for a final decision. A ruling against the business can then still be appealed in State court. As we saw with Elaine Photography those appeals can work their way all the way up to the State Supreme Court.

By the time this has happened people, the couple's wedding has already occurred. What happens to the business is they are fined or receive an slap on the wrist to "go forth and sin no more" (pun intended).

The couples aren't going to be eating a cake by the discriminatory baker.



>>>>

You are correct. And good old Melissa and hubby have to sit down with the lesbians soon and cut a deal. Boy would I love to be a fly on the wall for that meeting.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

I can see the day when a same sex couple contacts the town bakery and finds out they no longer offer wedding cakes at all. Neither does the bakery in the next Arizona town over, or the one after that. They can go all the way to Phoenix to find an accommodating bakery and they won't deliver 200 miles away.

Then that would make them all equal now wouldn't it? And it would also make me open a wedding cake shop, no sexuality questions asked.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I can see the day when a same sex couple contacts the town bakery and finds out they no longer offer wedding cakes at all. Neither does the bakery in the next Arizona town over, or the one after that. They can go all the way to Phoenix to find an accommodating bakery and they won't deliver 200 miles away.

I don't.

Society has become much more accepting of homosexuality in general and they are not ostracized like "the good old" days. The reality is that you will find fewer and fewer bakers (florists, photographers, etc.) where this would even be an issue.

Bakers will continue to advertise and they will continue to advertize for wedding cakes.



>>>>

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Business is fine. My customers are dumb, like you, which is why they need me. About one in ten of them I would consider for a friend. The rest pay their bills so I take care of them. It's business, that's all.

In my 27 years of business I've never even heard of a guy with your attitude.

Ah, do you think I print that on my business cards? That would bad for business. Humans are morons. Those morons with cash I call clients. Got it now?

 

[Iceweasel]

Business is fine. My customers are dumb, like you, which is why they need me. About one in ten of them I would consider for a friend. The rest pay their bills so I take care of them. It's business, that's all.

In my 27 years of business I've never even heard of a guy with your attitude.

Ah, do you think I print that on my business cards? That would bad for business. Humans are morons. Those morons with cash I call clients. Got it now?

Oh yes, I got it. Your side of the argument is full of conceit and self importance. How liberal of you.

 

[buckeye45_73]

Business is fine. My customers are dumb, like you, which is why they need me. About one in ten of them I would consider for a friend. The rest pay their bills so I take care of them. It's business, that's all.

In my 27 years of business I've never even heard of a guy with your attitude.

Ah, do you think I print that on my business cards? That would bad for business. Humans are morons. Those morons with cash I call clients. Got it now?

well you sound like a founding father, that wanted the electoral college.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

In my 27 years of business I've never even heard of a guy with your attitude.

Ah, do you think I print that on my business cards? That would bad for business. Humans are morons. Those morons with cash I call clients. Got it now?

Oh yes, I got it. Your side of the argument is full of conceit and self importance. How liberal of you.

I suspect you don't know what Liberal means? It's not "nice", we throw revolutions remember, like the American one.

 

[Katzndogz]

I can see the day when a same sex couple contacts the town bakery and finds out they no longer offer wedding cakes at all. Neither does the bakery in the next Arizona town over, or the one after that. They can go all the way to Phoenix to find an accommodating bakery and they won't deliver 200 miles away.

Then that would make them all equal now wouldn't it? And it would also make me open a wedding cake shop, no sexuality questions asked.

That would make them all equal, except that you know the baker will still be making wedding cakes. They just won't advertise the fact. That was the essential ruling in Elaine's Photography. If she did not advertise herself as a wedding photographer she would not have to perform same sex wedding photography services. There was no prohibition in her performing such services at all, just that if she advertised the fact, she had to perform.