Ariens Co. fires seven Muslim employees over unscheduled prayer breaks

[RetiredGySgt]

I think the workers have the higher burden to meet, as they are the ones with the requirement that adversely impacts work production. This isn't s a sikh wanting to wear a turban with the MTA logo, or a woman wanting to cover her hair when most workers do not. This is time away from production that the employees expect to be allowed while being compensated for working.

If a lawsuit were to happen, it would be very easy for the former employees to make a prima facia case of discrimination. They have a sincere belief in the Muslim religion. The practice of the five daily prayers is part of that belief. The accommodation they were requesting was previously granted. Their separation from employment was directly tied to not being given the requested accommodation. That is sufficient to make their prima facie case. The burden will then shift to the employer.

The reason why the burden will be so difficult for the employer is precisely because the employer had previously granted the requested accommodation to many individuals. Everything that you've been arguing all boils down to hypothetical abstractions about what might happen. But that is not going to cut it in a court of law. No employer has the right to discriminate on the basis of religion simply on hypothetical or abstract problems that might arise from accommodating the employee.

For example, it would be unlawful to discriminate against a Catholic employee on the basis that his being Catholic was suddenly making all the other employees angry, thus causing productivity problems when the other employees refused to work with the Catholic employee. Such an argument is an abstraction; the cause of any problems is due to disciplinary matters and does not warrant impinging on the Catholic man's beliefs. Alternately, a Pagan who does not eat meat for religious reasons might need a reasonable accommodation at their job in a hotel to store a sack lunch in the kitchen's food cooler if the employer normally provides daily meals for employees lunch break and prohibits them from leaving the premises during their lunch. If that accommodation has always been granted, but one day the rule is changed on the hypothetical basis that other people might want to also store food in the cooler and that could or might cause productivity issues, then the employer's reasoning would be discriminatory.

Right up until the Company called a Local Iman or religious leader and he informed the Court that school and work are accepted practices that overrule the 5 prayers a day.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Again for the truly slow stupid and moronic, THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT in ISLAM to meet all 5 prayers IF YOUR JOB OR SCHOOL ARE IN SESSION DURING THAT TIME.

For the truly stupid and moronic RetiredGySgt: The five daily prayers are one of the five pillars of Islam. They are considered a mandatory practice. Now nothing requires a Muslim to partake in all five prayers every single day, much in the same way that nothing requires a Jew to keep kosher. But your asinine and poorly informed babbling is irrelevant. The fact is that it is a religious practice. So stop with your bullshit.

Wrong you moron I was briefed by Islamic scholars and religious leaders and they stated for the record that Islam does NOT require prayer that conflicts with work or school. Those are exceptions to any such requirement. It is a fact of LAW that a Muslim does not have a legal standing to claim his religion requires him to pray 5 times a day when it conflicts with either work or school.

You don't know what you're talking about. Idiot.

The idiot here is you.

 

[SwimExpert]

Again for the truly slow stupid and moronic, THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT in ISLAM to meet all 5 prayers IF YOUR JOB OR SCHOOL ARE IN SESSION DURING THAT TIME.

For the truly stupid and moronic RetiredGySgt: The five daily prayers are one of the five pillars of Islam. They are considered a mandatory practice. Now nothing requires a Muslim to partake in all five prayers every single day, much in the same way that nothing requires a Jew to keep kosher. But your asinine and poorly informed babbling is irrelevant. The fact is that it is a religious practice. So stop with your bullshit.

Wrong you moron I was briefed by Islamic scholars and religious leaders and they stated for the record that Islam does NOT require prayer that conflicts with work or school. Those are exceptions to any such requirement. It is a fact of LAW that a Muslim does not have a legal standing to claim his religion requires him to pray 5 times a day when it conflicts with either work or school.

You don't know what you're talking about. Idiot.

The idiot here is you.

Your internet tough guy routine is not impressive. How you manage to breath consistently with so few brain cells is impressive.

 

[Deleted member 53821]

Again for the truly slow stupid and moronic, THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT in ISLAM to meet all 5 prayers IF YOUR JOB OR SCHOOL ARE IN SESSION DURING THAT TIME.

For the truly stupid and moronic RetiredGySgt: The five daily prayers are one of the five pillars of Islam. They are considered a mandatory practice. Now nothing requires a Muslim to partake in all five prayers every single day, much in the same way that nothing requires a Jew to keep kosher. But your asinine and poorly informed babbling is irrelevant. The fact is that it is a religious practice. So stop with your bullshit.

Wrong you moron I was briefed by Islamic scholars and religious leaders and they stated for the record that Islam does NOT require prayer that conflicts with work or school. Those are exceptions to any such requirement. It is a fact of LAW that a Muslim does not have a legal standing to claim his religion requires him to pray 5 times a day when it conflicts with either work or school.

You don't know what you're talking about. Idiot.

The idiot here is you.

Your internet tough guy routine is not impressive. How you manage to breath consistently with so few brain cells is impressive.

We all learn it from you.

 

[Iceweasel]

It's worse. Christians want people like Kim Davis to be able to ignore the law of the land.

That intel comes from your recent polling of every Christian in America, huh?

Do you wish to remove yourself from that generalization?

I'm not a Christian but you continue to demonstrate that you don't need an IQ to post here.

 

[Iceweasel]

That's the beauty of owning your own business. You make the rules, not the hired help. They have the right to not have production interrupted and obviously preferred to stay on schedule instead of being a quasi-mosque. If you religion prevents you from a job, find another job, another religion or adjust to the circumstances.

The law requires that employers not discriminate against anyone because of religion. To this end, all employees must be afforded reasonable accommodations to allow for religious obligations. If an unemployment action or lawsuit occurs, the employer will have a burden to prove that the requested accommodation was unreasonable.

Just because you hate Muslims does not make the accommodation unreasonable. That the accommodation had previously been granted weights in the favor of finding that the accommodation was reasonable and did not great undue burden on the employer.

That is the law. I know you don't like it, but it's the law all the same.

You're an idiot. I never said I hated Muslims, you pulled that out of your ample posterior. There's no law that requires business owners to provide a mechanism for employees to take time off of during work to fulfill their religious preferences. You made that up too. Owning a business doesn't mean you are obligated by law to pander top any dipshit thing people come up with.

 

[Tilly]

Just for curiosity, do the times designated for prayers change with the change of the clock in the Spring and Fall?

Salat time calculation:

To calculate prayer times two astronomical measures are necessary, the declination of the sun and the difference between clock time and sundial clock. This difference being the result of the eccentricity of the earth's orbit and the inclination of its axis, it is called the Equation of time. The declination of the sun is the angle between sun's rays and the equator plan.[1]

In addition to the above measures, to calculate prayer times for a specific location we need its spherical coordinates.[2]

In the following

is the time zone, and

the time equation value.

and

are the Longitude and the Latitude of the considered point, respectively.

denotes the Declination of the Sun for a given date.

An other important equation gives the time difference between when the sun hits its highest point in the sky (Dhuhr time) and any other angle

, as follow:

• Midday (Dhuhr) time is easily obtained. When the sun reaches the mid sky, time is given by:
  
• Sunrise (Chorok) and Sunset (Maghreb) time are given by
  
  , in fact it is the astronomical sunset/sunrise that occurs for
  
  . 0.833 is a slight correction that gives the actual time. So
  
  and
  
  .

If we consider the elevation of the point we should add another correction to the constant

.

• For Fajr and Isha many conventions about the angle
  
  exist. It is of 17 and 18 degrees respectively for Fadjr and Isha prayers according to the Muslim World League.
• For Asr time according to the majority of Muslim schools, including Shafi'i, Maliki, Ja'fari, and Hanbali, it is when the length of an object shadows became equal to its length plus the length of its shadow at noon. The Hanafi schools states that the time of Asr is when an object's shadow reaches two times the length of the object itself, plus the length of its shadow at noon. The time the shadow of an object reaches
  
  times its length is given by the equation:
  
  .
• It is called for the Maghrib prayer when the sun is completely folded behind the horizon, plus 3 minutes by precaution.

 

[Iceweasel]

Just for curiosity, do the times designated for prayers change with the change of the clock in the Spring and Fall?

Salat time calculation:

To calculate prayer times two astronomical measures are necessary, the declination of the sun and the difference between clock time and sundial clock. This difference being the result of the eccentricity of the earth's orbit and the inclination of its axis, it is called the Equation of time. The declination of the sun is the angle between sun's rays and the equator plan.[1]

In addition to the above measures, to calculate prayer times for a specific location we need its spherical coordinates.[2]

In the following

is the time zone, and

the time equation value.

and

are the Longitude and the Latitude of the considered point, respectively.

denotes the Declination of the Sun for a given date.

An other important equation gives the time difference between when the sun hits its highest point in the sky (Dhuhr time) and any other angle

, as follow:

• Midday (Dhuhr) time is easily obtained. When the sun reaches the mid sky, time is given by:
  
• Sunrise (Chorok) and Sunset (Maghreb) time are given by
  
  , in fact it is the astronomical sunset/sunrise that occurs for
  
  . 0.833 is a slight correction that gives the actual time. So
  
  and
  
  .

If we consider the elevation of the point we should add another correction to the constant

.

• For Fajr and Isha many conventions about the angle
  
  exist. It is of 17 and 18 degrees respectively for Fadjr and Isha prayers according to the Muslim World League.
• For Asr time according to the majority of Muslim schools, including Shafi'i, Maliki, Ja'fari, and Hanbali, it is when the length of an object shadows became equal to its length plus the length of its shadow at noon. The Hanafi schools states that the time of Asr is when an object's shadow reaches two times the length of the object itself, plus the length of its shadow at noon. The time the shadow of an object reaches
  
  times its length is given by the equation:
  
  .
• It is called for the Maghrib prayer when the sun is completely folded behind the horizon, plus 3 minutes by precaution.

That clears things up. To employ fundamentalist Muslims all one needs to do is hire Stephen Hawking to outline the daily schedules.

 

[Tilly]

Just for curiosity, do the times designated for prayers change with the change of the clock in the Spring and Fall?

Salat time calculation:

To calculate prayer times two astronomical measures are necessary, the declination of the sun and the difference between clock time and sundial clock. This difference being the result of the eccentricity of the earth's orbit and the inclination of its axis, it is called the Equation of time. The declination of the sun is the angle between sun's rays and the equator plan.[1]

In addition to the above measures, to calculate prayer times for a specific location we need its spherical coordinates.[2]

In the following

is the time zone, and

the time equation value.

and

are the Longitude and the Latitude of the considered point, respectively.

denotes the Declination of the Sun for a given date.

An other important equation gives the time difference between when the sun hits its highest point in the sky (Dhuhr time) and any other angle

, as follow:

• Midday (Dhuhr) time is easily obtained. When the sun reaches the mid sky, time is given by:
  
• Sunrise (Chorok) and Sunset (Maghreb) time are given by
  
  , in fact it is the astronomical sunset/sunrise that occurs for
  
  . 0.833 is a slight correction that gives the actual time. So
  
  and
  
  .

If we consider the elevation of the point we should add another correction to the constant

.

• For Fajr and Isha many conventions about the angle
  
  exist. It is of 17 and 18 degrees respectively for Fadjr and Isha prayers according to the Muslim World League.
• For Asr time according to the majority of Muslim schools, including Shafi'i, Maliki, Ja'fari, and Hanbali, it is when the length of an object shadows became equal to its length plus the length of its shadow at noon. The Hanafi schools states that the time of Asr is when an object's shadow reaches two times the length of the object itself, plus the length of its shadow at noon. The time the shadow of an object reaches
  
  times its length is given by the equation:
  
  .
• It is called for the Maghrib prayer when the sun is completely folded behind the horizon, plus 3 minutes by precaution.

That clears things up. To employ fundamentalist Muslims all one needs to do is hire Stephen Hawking to outline the daily schedules.

Exactly. But, as ?Retired Sgnt said, several circumstances can override the need to pray 5 times per day, but many Muslims take advantage of the fact that many non Muslims aren't aware of the finer points of their 'religion'. As the. Islam workforce grows, no doubt they begin demanding special segregated places to carry out wudhu - ritual washing before prayers, and they start demanding that they take their prayer breaks together - disastrous for anyone who employs more than a few Muslims.

 

[Agit8r]

There is only so much accommodation for religion that a secular society can guarantee.

 

[Tilly]

......"With more Muslims on the assembly line, Ariens said, unscheduled work breaks of more than a few minutes could cost the company millions of dollars annually in lost productivity.".....

Seems reasonable to me.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It's worse. Christians want people like Kim Davis to be able to ignore the law of the land.

That intel comes from your recent polling of every Christian in America, huh?

Do you wish to remove yourself from that generalization?

I'm not a Christian but you continue to demonstrate that you don't need an IQ to post here.

So you agree with me but you're not man enough to admit it.

 

[NYcarbineer]

That's the beauty of owning your own business. You make the rules, not the hired help. They have the right to not have production interrupted and obviously preferred to stay on schedule instead of being a quasi-mosque. If you religion prevents you from a job, find another job, another religion or adjust to the circumstances.

The law requires that employers not discriminate against anyone because of religion. To this end, all employees must be afforded reasonable accommodations to allow for religious obligations. If an unemployment action or lawsuit occurs, the employer will have a burden to prove that the requested accommodation was unreasonable.

Just because you hate Muslims does not make the accommodation unreasonable. That the accommodation had previously been granted weights in the favor of finding that the accommodation was reasonable and did not great undue burden on the employer.

That is the law. I know you don't like it, but it's the law all the same.

You're an idiot. I never said I hated Muslims, you pulled that out of your ample posterior. There's no law that requires business owners to provide a mechanism for employees to take time off of during work to fulfill their religious preferences. You made that up too. Owning a business doesn't mean you are obligated by law to pander top any dipshit thing people come up with.

What about the Christian pharmacists who don't want to dole out birth control or so-called abortifacients?

What about the Kim Davis's of the world who don't want to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples?

 

[initforme]

Seems as though the employees didn't specify to the company they were going to do this stuff. Therefore the company had no choice. They should seek out employers that will accommodate their needs. Also, only ten minute breaks? Sounds Like a puss poor place to work.

 

[NYcarbineer]

That's the beauty of owning your own business. You make the rules, not the hired help. They have the right to not have production interrupted and obviously preferred to stay on schedule instead of being a quasi-mosque. If you religion prevents you from a job, find another job, another religion or adjust to the circumstances.

The law requires that employers not discriminate against anyone because of religion. To this end, all employees must be afforded reasonable accommodations to allow for religious obligations. If an unemployment action or lawsuit occurs, the employer will have a burden to prove that the requested accommodation was unreasonable.

Just because you hate Muslims does not make the accommodation unreasonable. That the accommodation had previously been granted weights in the favor of finding that the accommodation was reasonable and did not great undue burden on the employer.

That is the law. I know you don't like it, but it's the law all the same.

You're an idiot. I never said I hated Muslims, you pulled that out of your ample posterior. There's no law that requires business owners to provide a mechanism for employees to take time off of during work to fulfill their religious preferences. You made that up too. Owning a business doesn't mean you are obligated by law to pander top any dipshit thing people come up with.

What about the Christian pharmacists who don't want to dole out birth control or so-called abortifacients?

What about the Kim Davis's of the world who don't want to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples?

Ah, yes, stunned silence from the Christians.

 

[Timmy]

Ariens Co. says it has fired seven Muslim employees for taking unscheduled prayer breaks, and 14 others have resigned over the issue.

More than 50 Somali immigrant Muslims at the Brillion manufacturer recently protested the company's enforcement of a policy of two 10-minute breaks per work shift — without accommodations forunscheduled prayer time.

The Muslim employees wanted the manufacturer of snowblowers and lawn mowers to continue a previous, more lenient practice of allowing them to leave their work stations at different times — such as at dawn and sunset — to pray as their faith requires of them.

Ariens said it was sticking with a policy that does not accommodate special prayer breaks, despite having bent the rules earlier.

Wednesday, Ariens said 32 of the Muslim employees have chosen to stay with the company and work within the break policy, 14 had resigned and seven were fired for taking unscheduled prayer time.

"We handled this with the same straightforward approach we use every day at Ariens Company. Recognizing there are language barriers and cultural differences, we allowed for extra time. We would have liked for more of the employees to stay, however, we respect their faith, we respect the work they have done for Ariens Company, and we respect their decisions," the company said.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Washington, D.C.-based group that has been an advocate for the Muslims at Ariens, says it may file a complaint with the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which enforces federal employment discrimination laws.

Ariens Co. fires seven Muslim employees

Just one word: assimilation If you are changing your home country expect there to be cultural differences.
If a western woman was going to live in a Muslim country, she would have to assimilate to their culture and never drive a car, wear a head scarf and change your way of dressing. If she couldn't handle that, don't go to a Muslim country. Vice Versa likewise.

Not true . Western women get a pass on a lot of stuff when in a Mid East country .

 

[RetiredGySgt]

That's the beauty of owning your own business. You make the rules, not the hired help. They have the right to not have production interrupted and obviously preferred to stay on schedule instead of being a quasi-mosque. If you religion prevents you from a job, find another job, another religion or adjust to the circumstances.

The law requires that employers not discriminate against anyone because of religion. To this end, all employees must be afforded reasonable accommodations to allow for religious obligations. If an unemployment action or lawsuit occurs, the employer will have a burden to prove that the requested accommodation was unreasonable.

Just because you hate Muslims does not make the accommodation unreasonable. That the accommodation had previously been granted weights in the favor of finding that the accommodation was reasonable and did not great undue burden on the employer.

That is the law. I know you don't like it, but it's the law all the same.

You're an idiot. I never said I hated Muslims, you pulled that out of your ample posterior. There's no law that requires business owners to provide a mechanism for employees to take time off of during work to fulfill their religious preferences. You made that up too. Owning a business doesn't mean you are obligated by law to pander top any dipshit thing people come up with.

What about the Christian pharmacists who don't want to dole out birth control or so-called abortifacients?

What about the Kim Davis's of the world who don't want to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples?

Last I checked any Pharmacist that refused to sell company products either started selling them or was fired. I don't recall yo having a fit about that at all.

 

[SwimExpert]

You're an idiot.

Perhaps. But not as much as yourself.

I never said I hated Muslims

But you keep proving it with every argument that is so pathetic it can't be explained any other way.

you pulled that out of your ample posterior.

Actually, I have a very skinny and bony ass. I would only wish that my posterior were "ample." Chicks dig it.

There's no law that requires business owners to provide a mechanism for employees to take time off of during work to fulfill their religious preferences.

The law prohibits discrimination, and subsequently requires reasonable accommodations. Your attempt to rephrase the circumstances so as to avoid that fact is rejected.

Owning a business doesn't mean you are obligated by law to pander top any dipshit thing people come up with.

It sure as hell doesn't mean you have a legal right to discriminate against people simply by couching your discrimination in other terms.

 

[SwimExpert]

That's the beauty of owning your own business. You make the rules, not the hired help. They have the right to not have production interrupted and obviously preferred to stay on schedule instead of being a quasi-mosque. If you religion prevents you from a job, find another job, another religion or adjust to the circumstances.

The law requires that employers not discriminate against anyone because of religion. To this end, all employees must be afforded reasonable accommodations to allow for religious obligations. If an unemployment action or lawsuit occurs, the employer will have a burden to prove that the requested accommodation was unreasonable.

Just because you hate Muslims does not make the accommodation unreasonable. That the accommodation had previously been granted weights in the favor of finding that the accommodation was reasonable and did not great undue burden on the employer.

That is the law. I know you don't like it, but it's the law all the same.

You're an idiot. I never said I hated Muslims, you pulled that out of your ample posterior. There's no law that requires business owners to provide a mechanism for employees to take time off of during work to fulfill their religious preferences. You made that up too. Owning a business doesn't mean you are obligated by law to pander top any dipshit thing people come up with.

What about the Christian pharmacists who don't want to dole out birth control or so-called abortifacients?

What about the Kim Davis's of the world who don't want to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples?

Oh, but that's different. Don't ask me how.

 

[Iceweasel]

It's worse. Christians want people like Kim Davis to be able to ignore the law of the land.

That intel comes from your recent polling of every Christian in America, huh?

Do you wish to remove yourself from that generalization?

I'm not a Christian but you continue to demonstrate that you don't need an IQ to post here.

So you agree with me but you're not man enough to admit it.

It doesn't work that way, Slick. You mischaracterized me in an attempt to forward your mindless agenda. Going further down the road won't help. You are stupid and dishonest.