Debate Now Are you pro-life, or pro-choice?

[TemplarKormac]

Everyone is opposed to abortion.

Everyone believes abortion is wrong.

Everyone wants to bring about the end of abortion.

Then why are you making a "constitutional" argument to effect of "everyone should acknowledge the rights of the woman to privacy"? Are you not engaging in the same "false dilemma" you're accusing me of?

 

[TemplarKormac]

And, now that the OP has conveniently derailed his own thread so he can bicker with a differing viewpoint and not understanding what she is referring to on the CONTEXT of why she said what she said and instead is making it all about him and also arguing about debate rules and what is considered (to him) as not "a sufficient answer

This thread was derailed the moment some people chose to ignore the rules put forth in the OP and start attacking my "qualifications" instead of the points I was trying to make. It's not my fault people refuse to play along. And I'm sincerely sorry you didn't find it to your liking, Gracie.

See you elsewhere!

 

[TemplarKormac]

Welp, I tried. Perhaps Gracie was right. This thread degraded into more of the same. I'm out of here too. Perhaps I'll know better than to start threads about abortion again.

 

[MisterBeale]

You would express your opinion in the context of private society only, seeking not to ‘ban’ abortion in violation of the right to privacy.

Huh? What exactly are you getting at here?

What he is getting at is the false dilemma you presented.


A lot of folks don't think this is an issue for the government or anybody else to stick their damn noses in.

This is a family issue and a women's issue.


Think about this, if you had a child that was suffering greatly, some severe disease that was degenerative, and every day they were in terrible pain, and they knew for absolute certainty that the end result of this disease would be death, in say, twelve months.

Now let's say this same child, in the progression of this illness, first goes deaf, then blind, then dumb, and can't hear, basically your Terri Schiavo nightmare scenario times ten. What you DO KNOW, from the shrieks of pain, is that your poor baby is in terrible pain every night.


Who's business is the health of this child, yours, or the government and society's?


Most of us who have a family, and have been part of a family, believe it is nobody elses business how we conduct the affairs of our own family. Some would say, put the child out of it's misery if there is no chance of a successful resolution to that illness, that the pain till death is cruel.

Others would say, that the law is the law, both social laws, state laws, and laws of God, and only natural death is legal. The parents must follow the strictures of society.


For those that believe in the privacy of the family, in extreme cases, they can even see the justification for infantacide, I'll bet you could never imagine that, could you? You would probably rather have babies starve, eh?

OTH, others seem to think we should let DHS come in and raise our children. If you believe that, I'm sure you have no problem telling families how they should conduct their private family business. You want to tell them how old their kids should be in order to walk to school or to the park alone now too?



I watched your videos. I found them horrifiying.

It didn't change my mind. I'm against abortion. Most folks I know would never have one.

However, let me tell you a little story. My son's mother had one, she told me she had one when we first started dating.


She knew I was against them though.


About six months after we were engaged, she came to me and told me she was pregnant. Then she asked me with fear in her eyes, "What are we going to do?"

Now, I never knew, to this day, if abortion crossed her mind, or if she was just worried about our future, but I immediately told her, we celebrate.


My personal view is, if men want there to be less abortions in this world, they need to step up. It's really just as simple as that. They need to show how over joyed they are when they become fathers and get rings on the fingers those mothers.

Make families, not death, if you want a solution.



The government and the community have no business in personal private family matters.


Family should always be more sovereign than the government.

In the days of the ancient Roman Republic, fathers had the right to put their children to death.
Pater familias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Eventually, the Romans found this practice uncivilized, and restricted it by law.

But you would revive ancient customs, practiced by pagans thousands of years ago, rejecting all the moral and ethical advances our society has made during that time.

My, I do think you are arrogant and naive if you think we have made "moral and ethical advances" since the time of the Romans.


I suggest this to you, if folks from a thousand years ago saw that we weren't sure if people with penises were men or women, and they saw the men were marrying men, and women were marrying women, and they knew how many abortions were done each year as a matter of birth control, do you really think someone from say 1016 AD would find us that much more morally and ethically advanced?

 

[Blackrook]

I think you really need to watch the video. If you don't, you are refusing to face the ugliness of the choice you are making in supporting legalized abortion.

I would say the same about myself. I was an enthusiastic supporter of the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq before they happened. Now that I see the heavy cost of these wars, the dead, the wounded, the lost limbs, the destroyed lives, I have realized that war has ugly consequences and my opinion has changed. Now I see war as an option that should only be taken if there is no other possible alternatives, and if it were up to me, we would withdraw from these wars and let the Afghanis and Iraqis fight for their own so-called "freedom."

So, if I have changed my opinion about war based on 15 years of watching the harsh reality of what it is, then you should be willing to look at a four minute video, and risk that your opinion on abortion might change on abortion, just as my opinion changed on war.

 

[Blackrook]

You would express your opinion in the context of private society only, seeking not to ‘ban’ abortion in violation of the right to privacy.

Huh? What exactly are you getting at here?

What he is getting at is the false dilemma you presented.


A lot of folks don't think this is an issue for the government or anybody else to stick their damn noses in.

This is a family issue and a women's issue.


Think about this, if you had a child that was suffering greatly, some severe disease that was degenerative, and every day they were in terrible pain, and they knew for absolute certainty that the end result of this disease would be death, in say, twelve months.

Now let's say this same child, in the progression of this illness, first goes deaf, then blind, then dumb, and can't hear, basically your Terri Schiavo nightmare scenario times ten. What you DO KNOW, from the shrieks of pain, is that your poor baby is in terrible pain every night.


Who's business is the health of this child, yours, or the government and society's?


Most of us who have a family, and have been part of a family, believe it is nobody elses business how we conduct the affairs of our own family. Some would say, put the child out of it's misery if there is no chance of a successful resolution to that illness, that the pain till death is cruel.

Others would say, that the law is the law, both social laws, state laws, and laws of God, and only natural death is legal. The parents must follow the strictures of society.


For those that believe in the privacy of the family, in extreme cases, they can even see the justification for infantacide, I'll bet you could never imagine that, could you? You would probably rather have babies starve, eh?

OTH, others seem to think we should let DHS come in and raise our children. If you believe that, I'm sure you have no problem telling families how they should conduct their private family business. You want to tell them how old their kids should be in order to walk to school or to the park alone now too?



I watched your videos. I found them horrifiying.

It didn't change my mind. I'm against abortion. Most folks I know would never have one.

However, let me tell you a little story. My son's mother had one, she told me she had one when we first started dating.


She knew I was against them though.


About six months after we were engaged, she came to me and told me she was pregnant. Then she asked me with fear in her eyes, "What are we going to do?"

Now, I never knew, to this day, if abortion crossed her mind, or if she was just worried about our future, but I immediately told her, we celebrate.


My personal view is, if men want there to be less abortions in this world, they need to step up. It's really just as simple as that. They need to show how over joyed they are when they become fathers and get rings on the fingers those mothers.

Make families, not death, if you want a solution.



The government and the community have no business in personal private family matters.


Family should always be more sovereign than the government.

In the days of the ancient Roman Republic, fathers had the right to put their children to death.
Pater familias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Eventually, the Romans found this practice uncivilized, and restricted it by law.

But you would revive ancient customs, practiced by pagans thousands of years ago, rejecting all the moral and ethical advances our society has made during that time.

My, I do think you are arrogant and naive if you think we have made "moral and ethical advances" since the time of the Romans.


I suggest this to you, if folks from a thousand years ago saw that we weren't sure if people with penises were men or women, and they saw the men were marrying men, and women were marrying women, and they knew how many abortions were done each year as a matter of birth control, do you really think someone from say 1016 AD would find us that much more morally and ethically advanced?

The pagan Romans did not have abortion, so they abandoned infants on the street in a very widespread fashion. When the Christians came along, they started picking up the abandoned infants, and raising them as their own. Before the Christians, the pagans just let the infants die of exposure. So yes, our society is moral than the pagan Romans, or any pagan society. What you advocated is infanticide, which the Emperors outlawed when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. What you advocate is a retreat to a more morally backwards age, when men and women did not know the laws of the Judeo/Christian God.

 

[JustAnotherNut]

In the OP, there are many considerations conveniently missing. Such as not all women have regular cycles to know whether or not they are pregnant or the need for any control measures. Don't forget those hot & heavy moments in the backseat as a teen, or even in an abusive relationship as an adult or any number of other situations that aren't so cut & dried and leave the woman/girl helpless, alone, afraid and pregnant & not know what else to do but abort. And don't forget that many that are denied abortion are forced to raise a kid they don't want that leads to child abuse & neglect, or getting welfare or any number of other social issues. Oh and let's not forget that Medicaid doesn't pay for birth control OR abortions, so they just keep having more kids. These may not happen often, but it's still a vicious cycle.

Whether abortions are legal or not, those who want them will have it done and it's been done for thousands of years. Sometimes successfully and sometimes not. I'd rather have clean professional Dr's available than a back alley butcher.

But there is more to Choice than just having an abortion or not. I think that any woman or girl that considers abortion should first have to go to counseling of all the CHOICES available such as having the baby or adoption and ensuring she has the mental, emotional and financial support throughout and that abortion should be the last resort but not after 3 months, unless other circumstances gave reason, but only a case by case basis. Government shouldn't have any say in the matter.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Remember also that citizens are not required to ‘justify’ the exercising of a fundamental right as a ‘prerequisite’ to indeed do so.

Needlessly taking the life of an innocent fellow human being, in cold blood, is not a “right”, no matter what any court or legislature says.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

I think it makes for an interesting discussion when you leave religion out of it, though it raises some questions - for example, without religion, what makes human life valuable in and of itself? And that is part of what drives the abortion debate.

If you take religion out of the discussion,and take out any external source of right and wrong, then you're still left with this—You certainly do not want to be killed. How can you claim a right, and ask for that right to be defended, not to be summarily killed, if someone stronger than you wishes to kill you; if you will not grant that same right and that same protection to all human beings, including those who are weaker than yourself?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

A lot of folks don't think this is an issue for the government or anybody else to stick their damn noses in.

This is a family issue and a women's issue.


Think about this, if you had a child that was suffering greatly, some severe disease that was degenerative, and every day they were in terrible pain, and they knew for absolute certainty that the end result of this disease would be death, in say, twelve months.

Now let's say this same child, in the progression of this illness, first goes deaf, then blind, then dumb, and can't hear, basically your Terri Schiavo nightmare scenario times ten. What you DO KNOW, from the shrieks of pain, is that your poor baby is in terrible pain every night.


Who's business is the health of this child, yours, or the government and society's?


Most of us who have a family, and have been part of a family, believe it is nobody elses business how we conduct the affairs of our own family. Some would say, put the child out of it's misery if there is no chance of a successful resolution to that illness, that the pain till death is cruel.

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The government and the community have no business in personal private family matters.


Family should always be more sovereign than the government.

If putting one of its own members to death is a “personal private family matter”, then there is no form of child abuse that isn't also a “personal private family matter”, and, by your argument, none of the business of government nor society.

If a father regularly beats the crap out of his young son for no good reason, and repeatedly rapes his young daughter, then by your argument, there is nothing that government or society should do to stop him or to protect his children.

 

[Asclepias]

The title may seem a bit cliche, but still, a legitimate question nonetheless. And just for those who will read only the first sentence of this post:

The only time I will advocate for an abortion is when the mother's life is in immediate danger, or if she is raped, and/or a victim of incest. That's it. At no other time should a child be aborted prior to 21 weeks gestation.

Now, random men and women in the video below were asked whether they were pro choice or pro life. As you can see, many of them said they were pro choice. After being shown a video of what happens during an actual abortion procedure however, they soon changed their minds, or were at least planning to reconsider their stances on the subject.



Being "pro-choice" isn't just some arbitrary title one can simply slap across their chest so they aren't seen as misogynists, it's a sign of someone ill educated about the process detailing how an actual unborn child is torn apart piece by piece inside the womb. As seen in the proceeding video:



The question(s):

1) Are you pro-choice, or pro-life? Why?
2) If after watching the second video you changed from pro-choice to pro-life, what changed your mind?
3) If you are pro-choice even after watching the video, why?

The rules:

No name calling and/or religious slurs.
No talking points. I want sound arguments to be made on both ends.
No citing the Bible. On any side.

GO!

I'm both.

I hate the thought of a child getting aborted. I have witnessed a friend have one and it was not a very pleasant memory. However, I dont have the right to tell anyone what to do with their body especially being a male and not having to carry the child in my body.

 

[Muhammed]

The title may seem a bit cliche, but still, a legitimate question nonetheless. And just for those who will read only the first sentence of this post:

The only time I will advocate for an abortion is when the mother's life is in immediate danger, or if she is raped, and/or a victim of incest. That's it. At no other time should a child be aborted prior to 21 weeks gestation.

Now, random men and women in the video below were asked whether they were pro choice or pro life. As you can see, many of them said they were pro choice. After being shown a video of what happens during an actual abortion procedure however, they soon changed their minds, or were at least planning to reconsider their stances on the subject.



Being "pro-choice" isn't just some arbitrary title one can simply slap across their chest so they aren't seen as misogynists, it's a sign of someone ill educated about the process detailing how an actual unborn child is torn apart piece by piece inside the womb. As seen in the proceeding video:



The question(s):

1) Are you pro-choice, or pro-life? Why?
2) If after watching the second video you changed from pro-choice to pro-life, what changed your mind?
3) If you are pro-choice even after watching the video, why?

The rules:

No name calling and/or religious slurs.
No talking points. I want sound arguments to be made on both ends.
No citing the Bible. On any side.

GO!

The most obvious problem with your "rape" caveat is that generally, a law enforcement investigation and prosecution of a serious felony such as rape takes a longer time than the human gestation period in the first place. So the order to kill/execute the child would be done extra-judiciously.

Do you advocate the state killing an innocent 3-4 year old child because the prosecution proved that thier mama was raped?

 

[candycorn]

And suddenly, the debate is not "why I'm pro choice or pro life" but how unqualified I am to discuss the matter. No longer is the substance of the thread being discussed, the topic has turned to my qualifications on to issue an opinion subject. That's not fair. I can only attribute such attitude to wholesale arrogance. Think about it. You think that just because you're a woman or because I've never been pregnant or raped or what have you, that you feel you can arbitrarily dismiss the opinion of a man who dares raise an opinion on the subject.

Yep. An attempt to get people to debate honestly on the issues of abortion was a pure waste of my time.

It's okay. You weren't using it.


Well, you asked 3 questions at the start. Are we one or the other, did we watch a vid, and how can we possibly be unmoved.

I pointed out that I'm pro choice. That I didn't watch the video and no video would turn me around on the subject. 3 up/3 down

I offered that if you feel passionately about a topic no video would change your position and offered up Ms Clinton and the 2nd Amendment as examples.

In my opinion--this is still a debate zone--I offered that the use of convenience is a sign that one is not qualified. Would you think I would be qualified to discuss the 2nd Amendment if I came out and stated that its popularity was based on the fact that it allowed the savage instinct in Humans to be fulfilled? No way you're killing a grizzly with a sling shot; after all and dismissing the self defense, sporting, and yes the "food chain" reality. Love me some good deer meat BTW.

Your use of convenience is disturbing. I would wager that nobody close to you has been through this if you are making that allegation. It's much--not exactly--like saying amputees had their ____ removed because of the good parking spaces.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Why would anyone be "passionate" about being pro-choice? I don't understand that.
"I want to kill kill kill!!"...."the more lives we end the better we are!!"

I am being facetious with the above quotes clearly, but nevertheless..."passionate"??

 

[TemplarKormac]

Do you advocate the state killing an innocent 3-4 year old child because the prosecution proved that thier mama was raped?

No need to be facetious.

Of course not. Contraceptive measures can be taken long before the judicial process is completed. If she chooses to go through with it, more power to her.

 

[anotherlife]

Pro choice is the right answer. A girl told me that most pro lifers are 40+ year old perverts and all pro lifers should knot their dicks. How do you knot a dick?

 

[Asclepias]

Pro choice is the right answer. A girl told me that most pro lifers are 40+ year old perverts and all pro lifers should knot their dicks. How do you knot a dick?

Most people that are strictly pro lifers are white male conservatives. Thats going to be a hard task for them to accomplish considering what they have to work with.

 

[anotherlife]

Pro choice is the right answer. A girl told me that most pro lifers are 40+ year old perverts and all pro lifers should knot their dicks. How do you knot a dick?

Most people that are strictly pro lifers are white male conservatives. Thats going to be a hard task for them to accomplish considering what they have to work with.

Maybe we can grab them by the dick and pull the dick to make it longer, then put a knot on it.

 

[Likkmee]

The only time I will advocate for an abortion is when the mother's life is in immediate danger, or if she is raped, and/or a victim of incest.

Why? Do you think God wants them to be aborted? Even though he created them?

HMMMMM The last one I "created" I was the dude that had her bent over the back of the couch. I kinda wondered why she kept saying " OH GOD, OH God". Thanks for the enlightenment.

 

[320 Years of History]

Resolutely pro-choice.