Zone1 Are you a Calvinist or Arminianist or what?

[onefour1]

Here is an explanation of Calvinism and Arminianism:

Calvinism vs Arminianism Which view is correct?

If you don't agree with either, please explain your view.

 

[foggedinn]

If this is a question about predestination, I do believe that some individuals are predestined.

 

[SweetSue92]

Here is an explanation of Calvinism and Arminianism:

Calvinism vs Arminianism Which view is correct?

If you don't agree with either, please explain your view.

That's a great video and I agree with the ending. While I do trend more toward Calvinism, I hold that very loosely. In the end it's a "through the mirror darkly" issue IMO and not an 'essential' for entering salvation. IOW, a believer can be a Calvinist or an Arminian--so let's not argue about it overmuch.

 

[lg325]

As my old country Pastor used to say ''others may preach Calvinisim or Armenisim but here we preach Jesus Christ.''
I agree with the other two posters.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Here is an explanation of Calvinism and Arminianism:
Calvinism vs Arminianism Which view is correct?
If you don't agree with either, please explain your view.

For the benefit of those of us who find videos very inconvenient, and would much rather read a written description, could you please summarize these two philosophies, in written form, as they relate to your question?

I do not know at all how correct this is, but I have it in my head that a feature of Calvinism is a belief that we are all predestined to be good or evil, to be saved or to be damned, and that we have no choice in the matter. Is that what you mean by the term, here? And if so, then does Arminianism refer to a belief that we have free agency, that it is up to us to choose to do good or to do evil, and to experience the consequences of our choices?

———

On taking a quick browse on the Wikipedia, it seems that my assumption of the two philosophies as opposed to one another, is more or less correct; but that neither is entirely reconcilable with what I believe, with the established doctrines of the religion to which you and I both adhere, though Arminianism seems to be significantly less irreconcilable with our beliefs than Calvinism is.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

All of this nonsense about what HUMANS say about the gospel is irrelevant. I don't pay attention to what Man says.

Everything you need for Salvation, on a PERSONAL level, is in the Scriptures. I follow Jesus as I understand Him.

Here are things to consider:
1. The Father CALLS & CHOOSES
2. We have the ultimate CHOICE in accepting or rejecting His Call (the parable of the Sower)
3. Once saved, always saved" is a lie

 

[Natural Citizen]

Aw man. I've always wanted to see a Calvinism thread on here. Especially one with a real Calvinist in it.

 

[onefour1]

For the benefit of those of us who find videos very inconvenient, and would much rather read a written description, could you please summarize these two philosophies, in written form, as they relate to your question?

I do not know at all how correct this is, but I have it in my head that a feature of Calvinism is a belief that we are all predestined to be good or evil, to be saved or to be damned, and that we have no choice in the matter. Is that what you mean by the term, here? And if so, then does Arminianism refer to a belief that we have free agency, that it is up to us to choose to do good or to do evil, and to experience the consequences of our choices?

———

On taking a quick browse on the Wikipedia, it seems that my assumption of the two philosophies as opposed to one another, is more or less correct; but that neither is entirely reconcilable with what I believe, with the established doctrines of the religion to which you and I both adhere, though Arminianism seems to be significantly less irreconcilable with our beliefs than Calvinism is.

According to the video these are the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism:

Calvinism
1. Total Depravity of Man - every aspect of humanity is corrupted by sin. Human beings are unable to come to God on their own accord.
2. Unconditional Election - God elects individuals to salvation based entirely on His will.
3. Limited Atonement - The belief that Jesus only died for the elect.
4. Irresistable Grace - When God calls a person to salvation that person will inevitably come to salvation.
5. Perseverance of the Saints - The believer will not permanently deny Christ.

Arminianism
1. Partial Depravity of Man - Every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin; but not to the extent that human beings are unable to place faith in God of their own accord. There is a intermediate state between total depravity and salvation in that mankind has the ability to choose salvation.
2. Conditional Election - God elects individuals to salvation based on his foreknowledge of who will believe.
3. Unlimited Atonement - The belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.
4. Resistable Grace - God calls all to salvation but everyone has the ability to resist God's grace and choose to reject it.
5. Conditional Salvation - The believer in Christ can permanently, of his own free will, turn away from Christ.

You and I Bob, are of the same faith and do not adhere strictly to either of these philosophies. My intent is to explore these philosophies and to express our beliefs regarding God and his purposes for mankind.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

According to the video these are the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism:

Calvinism
1. Total Depravity of Man - every aspect of humanity is corrupted by sin. Human beings are unable to come to God on their own accord.
2. Unconditional Election - God elects individuals to salvation based entirely on His will.
3. Limited Atonement - The belief that Jesus only died for the elect.
4. Irresistable [sic] Grace - When God calls a person to salvation that person will inevitably come to salvation.
5. Perseverance of the Saints - The believer will not permanently deny Christ.

Arminianism
1. Partial Depravity of Man - Every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin; but not to the extent that human beings are unable to place faith in God of their own accord. There is a intermediate state between total depravity and salvation in that mankind has the ability to choose salvation.
2. Conditional Election - God elects individuals to salvation based on his foreknowledge of who will believe.
3. Unlimited Atonement - The belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.
4. Resistable Grace - God calls all to salvation but everyone has the ability to resist God's grace and choose to reject it.
5. Conditional Salvation - The believer in Christ can permanently, of his own free will, turn away from Christ.

You and I Bob, are of the same faith and do not adhere strictly to either of these philosophies. My intent is to explore these philosophies and to express our beliefs regarding God and his purposes for mankind.

I can almost see a suggestion, here, of a continuous spectrum, with Calvinism representing one end of that spectrum. I don't know what would represent the other end, but from where I stand, Arminianism is in the same direction from me (and probably you as well) that Calvinism is, just not quite as far in that direction.

I look at the five statements attributed to Calvinism, and except for the second sentence of the first statement, I find them to be utterly irreconcilable with anything that I believe. Maybe I can accept the idea that “Human beings are unable to come to God on their own accord.” After all, Satan is out there, doing everything that he can to turn us away from God, so perhaps God needs to give us some assistance, some influence, in opposition to Satan's, to allow us to turn back toward Him. If not got the Influence of the Holy Ghost, perhaps Satan would succeed in sending us all astray; I can see that as a possibility.

I look at the five statements under Arminianism, and I find myself feeling a lot more wishy-washy about whether I want to agree or disagree with them. I think, perhaps, I find them to be based on sound truth, but missing some important but ineffable points.

 

[onefour1]

As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, our view of things are different but probably more on the side of the Arminian view than the Calvinist view. We believe that the doctrine of exnihilo creation to be a false doctrine. We believe that God takes of the things that have an eternal existence and organizes them into things that are made. Among the things that are eternal in nature are the elements and the intelligences of all intelligent beings.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Since the intelligence of man is coeternal with God and has always existed, God could not create our intelligence. We believe that God, by taking these intelligences and combining them with spirit matter or elements that are also eternal, He through the process of procreation was able to create the spirits of all mankind as his children.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Our intelligences have always been able to think freely and choose what we wish to believe or not. Lucifer, when in heaven, was able to freely choose to rebel against the Father and convinced 1/3 of the hosts of heaven to choose to follow after him.

Revelation 12:4
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

God honors free will as an eternal principal and knows that for mankind to truly be good beings, they must learn to choose good of their own free will and choice. Only then can mankind truly be a good beings in and of themselves. Since mankind's intelligence is self existent and coeternal with God himself, he could not create it and thus could not create it to be perfect. God is trying to bring our intelligence to a higher level by giving us the opportunity to learn and choose good over evil by obeying his commandments and doing good to all mankind. He created this temporary existence so that He could test us to see who would be the ones who would choose good over evil and abide by the laws of his heavenly kingdom. God's foreknowledge of knowing what we will choose with our free will does not interfere with our free will. He simply knows what we as individuals will choose with our free will. God will not allow wickedness to rule over the heavens. He maintains power to put down evil and exalt goodness. For this reason he cast Satan and his minions out of heaven into this earth to test us and afterward will cast them into hell where they cannot have power in the kingdom of heaven or any lesser kingdom to rule and reign in unrighteousness. Thus in heaven, there is a separation of the wicked from the righteous.

Before coming to this earth, we all existed as the spirit children of God the Father in his kingdom. Some were obedient and were allowed to be tested to see if they would choose good over evil without a perfect knowledge of God. In other words, we were sent to this earth and have had a vail placed over our minds so as not to remember our premortal existence. Here we are tested to see what we will do in and of ourselves. Will we choose good over evil or evil over good? Those who choose to be good people will be rewarded to live among other good people for all eternity. While those who choose evil will have to live among those of their own kind in the various kingdoms in the hereafter. It really comes down to our free choice of what manner of mankind we choose to be. Those who excelled in the premortal world of spirits have been elected to be born into critical positions in this life to further the spread of the gospel plan and to build the kingdom of God on earth. This doesn't mean that they cannot choose otherwise. Some fail and some succeed in their various callings. God does have foreknowledge to place those whom he knows will choose good over evil into certain positions. He also places some whom he knows will choose evil over good in certain positions to bring about His purposes. This in no way infringes on the persons free will to choose as he desires. We will all stand before the judge and be judged according to our free will choices on this earth. If God were to force us to do evil or create us without any free will, His judgements would be unjust. But God is a just and holy God and allows all mankind the freedom to choose good over evil or evil over good according the dictates of their own conscience and executes a just judgement upon us all.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, our view of things are different but probably more on the side of the Arminian view than the Calvinist view. We believe that the doctrine of exnihilo creation to be a false doctrine. We believe that God takes of the things that have an eternal existence and organizes them into things that are made. Among the things that are eternal in nature are the elements and the intelligences of all intelligent beings.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Since the intelligence of man is coeternal with God and has always existed, God could not create our intelligence. We believe that God, by taking these intelligences and combining them with spirit matter or elements that are also eternal, He through the process of procreation was able to create the spirits of all mankind as his children.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Our intelligences have always been able to think freely and choose what we wish to believe or not. Lucifer, when in heaven, was able to freely choose to rebel against the Father and convinced 1/3 of the hosts of heaven to choose to follow after him.

Revelation 12:4
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

God honors free will as an eternal principal and knows that for mankind to truly be good beings, they must learn to choose good of their own free will and choice. Only then can mankind truly be a good beings in and of themselves. Since mankind's intelligence is self existent and coeternal with God himself, he could not create it and thus could not create it to be perfect. God is trying to bring our intelligence to a higher level by giving us the opportunity to learn and choose good over evil by obeying his commandments and doing good to all mankind. He created this temporary existence so that He could test us to see who would be the ones who would choose good over evil and abide by the laws of his heavenly kingdom. God's foreknowledge of knowing what we will choose with our free will does not interfere with our free will. He simply knows what we as individuals will choose with our free will. God will not allow wickedness to rule over the heavens. He maintains power to put down evil and exalt goodness. For this reason he cast Satan and his minions out of heaven into this earth to test us and afterward will cast them into hell where they cannot have power in the kingdom of heaven or any lesser kingdom to rule and reign in unrighteousness. Thus in heaven, there is a separation of the wicked from the righteous.

Before coming to this earth, we all existed as the spirit children of God the Father in his kingdom. Some were obedient and were allowed to be tested to see if they would choose good over evil without a perfect knowledge of God. In other words, we were sent to this earth and have had a vail placed over our minds so as not to remember our premortal existence. Here we are tested to see what we will do in and of ourselves. Will we choose good over evil or evil over good? Those who choose to be good people will be rewarded to live among other good people for all eternity. While those who choose evil will have to live among those of their own kind in the various kingdoms in the hereafter. It really comes down to our free choice of what manner of mankind we choose to be. Those who excelled in the premortal world of spirits have been elected to be born into critical positions in this life to further the spread of the gospel plan and to build the kingdom of God on earth. This doesn't mean that they cannot choose otherwise. Some fail and some succeed in their various callings. God does have foreknowledge to place those whom he knows will choose good over evil into certain positions. He also places some whom he knows will choose evil over good in certain positions to bring about His purposes. This in no way infringes on the persons free will to choose as he desires. We will all stand before the judge and be judged according to our free will choices on this earth. If God were to force us to do evil or create us without any free will, His judgements would be unjust. But God is a just and holy God and allows all mankind the freedom to choose good over evil or evil over good according the dictates of their own conscience and executes a just judgement upon us all.

There is almost NOTHING I agree with here.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Here is an explanation of Calvinism and Arminianism:

Calvinism vs Arminianism Which view is correct?

If you don't agree with either, please explain your view.

Power-Freaks Use Shaming As a Tactic to Get Absolute Obedience

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

There is almost NOTHING I agree with here.

Escaping From Birth-Class Tyranny Is the Reason Our Forefathers Came to America

Serfish people who believe in their Masters' right to inheritance could pretend to justify it by imagining a pre-life in which people were tested. Those who passed the test would be born rich.

This slavish fantasy perpetrated by the hereditary ruling class is the same superstition as the Hindus fall for with re-incarnation, where an obedient and uncomplaining peasant will become a rajah in his next life.

 

[there4eyeM]

Because of the limitations of our minds and our languages, any ascriptions to "God" would have to apply, none to the exclusion of any others. "God", in this case, must be assumed to be One.

 

[luiza]

Two clever faith believers from over 500 years ago leading to present day commentators mumbling and bumbling about how relatively strong their respective Cult beliefs are . This must rank alongside Flat Earth as the most desperately sad and fact- less discussion since they last debated how many Angels can stand on the head of a pin at one time .

 

[onefour1]

I have found that this video is a good video that exposes the problems with Calvinism:

 

[presonorek]

Calvinism just makes so much more sense. A god by definition is omnipotent. It is immature to believe that a human can manipulate a god. If we can manipulate God by demanding or obligating this god to issue us salvation then that entity is not a god but a puppet owned by humans.

But if god is not a god then He isn’t a god. I wish I would have been raised Calvinist but God choose for me not to be raised Calvinist and God also chose for me to be an atheist. If God wants me to be an atheist how can I resist His power? God gives some irresistible grace but God gave me irresistible damnation yet I still worship Him because He is God.

Some believe God exists but live as if He does not exist. I prefer to believe that God does not exist but to live as if He does exist. God has already chosen my parents, my body, and the culture that surrounds me. I think it would be no small feat if additionally He chose my beliefs, my salvation, my religion, and the words I type in this post. It is comforting to believe God is in control of every aspect of my life even though I do not believe in God at all. Calvinism just makes so much more sense. Armenianism just says that we own God. Well if humans can own Him then He isn’t God. Armenianism makes religion so unappealing and stupid. Who wants to have a belief that proves how stupid you are? Calvinism makes religion deliciously logical. I’d still be a Christian if I would have been trained up as a child as a Calvinist. Armenianism is the doctrine of egotistical self serving idiots. Christianity is about sacrifice and denying oneself.

 

[presonorek]

As my old country Pastor used to say ''others may preach Calvinisim or Armenisim but here we preach Jesus Christ.''
I agree with the other two posters.

There is another joke like that about the doctrine of a pretribulation versus posttribulation. The redneck preacher cleverly declared himself as a pantribulationist. He said it would all pan out in the end.

 

[presonorek]

I would totally join a church that was 5 point Calvinist. I once attended a PCUSA Presbyterian Church expecting them to be Calvinist but they were taking prayer requests for medical needs. I was like WTF. If everything is predestined, isn’t selfish greedy stupid dumb ass prayers that aren’t modeled after the Lord’s Prayer pointless? I thought I was still in a Baptist Church full of greedy pigs that thinks God is their best buddy. I don’t think denominations mean anything anymore. People just go to the church they like and bring their doctrines with them. Those Baptists just get mad at their Baptist Church, go to a church of another denomination, infuse their beliefs there, and change all the churches into Baptist Churches. Good I then I guess. They are strong on evangelism.

 

[frigidweirdo]

If this is a question about predestination, I do believe that some individuals are predestined.

Yeah, that's me.

Explosions are predestination, the Big Bang... to us.... predestined.