Apparent majority for Jordan Valley Sovereignty vote

[rylah]

majority of Jewish Israelis (52 percent) support Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s plan to apply sovereignty in Judea and Samaria, according to a poll published on Sunday.

Majority is majority, but I would expect that this majority would be more overwhelming.

Relatively low support for PM Netanyahu's promises does not necessarily reflect public support for specifically application of sovereignty in Judea.

Another Hamas'tan in the heart of the country is where people have reservations.

It's IN SPITE that that there's still a majority,
and overall certainty in PM's intentions and ability to navigate situations in correct trajectory.

 

[rylah]

RE: Apparent majority for Jordan Valley Sovereignty vote
⁜→ rylah, et al,

I have to admit, I was wrong on this issue (extending Israeli Sovereignty over Judea and Samaria).

Poll: Most Jewish Israelis Support Applying Sovereignty

A majority of Jewish Israelis (52 percent) support Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s plan to apply sovereignty in Judea and Samaria, according to a poll published on Sunday.

(COMMENT)

If you would have asked me my thoughts on this, and settlements in general, a year ago (and I think that someone actually did) I would have said that Israel must know that at some point, they will have to give back much of the territory ceased in the wake of the Jordanian withdrawal. They would have to do this in the interest of peace on a more formal negotiation process and conflict resolution format. BUT that doesn't seem to be the case. It is not all Israel's fault. The Arab Palestinians own a lion's share of the outcome here.

What is really going to be the taste of the pudding, is the reaction of the Area Palestinians residing inside of the annexed Judea and Samaria, in comparison to those living outside.

There will be a Paradox here. Traditionally, the residents (Arab Palestinian) of an Annexed Territory (Judea and Samaria) are offered a new nationality. And if they accept, they become Israeli citizens with all the rights, protections, and privileges that come with that. Once that happens, the new Arab Israeli citizens will be allowed to move freely anywhere under the sovereignty of Israel in the same way the Israelis are allowed. Of course, each of the new citizens will have to avail themselves of the process that issues Israeli Identity Documents. They will have to register with the new subdivision office of the Israeli Central Elections Committee. I'm sure the Netanyahu government has thought all this out. The Israelis are going to have to provide police, fire, and emergency care facilities and infrastructure • to the same standard (even new drivers licenses and vehicle registration plate) and schools for the new areas.

Every Ministry across the government are going to have to plan and be ready to execute the transition. And it is going to have to be well executed; Israel cannot afford to screw this up. Even the Lishkat Hataasuka (employment services) are going to have to get in the act. This is not a very easy task. And there are no second chances. The better these actions are carried out, the more the Arab Palestinians on the outside are going to see what it means to be under the umbrella of Israeli sovereignty. Again, this is a very huge task and enormously complex. Even a local police and fire academies are going to be established; as well as vocational education and apprenticeship programs plugged into the communities. Meaning they have to put the unemplyed to

This is NOT a snap of your fingers, and like magic, it happens and everyone is happy. I'm wondering if the Knesset knows, or even has an idea, of what the consequences and obligations are in this undertaking. This is going to cost, a billion shekels - easily. It is not just a political question, but the intervention on a human development scale.

Just my thought.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, You bring several valid points.
Implementation and management are now key.

With that said, though logic tells PM Netanyahu's Likud party should have all necessary details laid out planned in archived folders. From practical perspective their angle is in macro management along long term goals. And for a local management framework
there's a great collective of highly potent managers in the Knesset.

Especially the younger parties that addressed these specific issues in greater detail, and as central part of their political vision.

Politics aside, in practice, on the ground, it's a municipal level challenge.
Both in demographic perspective, as outlaid in current plan, and geographic.
The basic infrastructure is already there, many villages are 10 min walk distance.

I'm also sure there is access to all PA registration, and that many if not most were already registered by police or during employment as contractors.

To end with 3 points:

1. If looked from a framework of development of Jerusalem suburb neighborhoods,
then the implementation looks a much clearer set of natural tasks. TAMA100 outlined infrastructure in the entirety of the country, and remains the most comprehensive and practically viable framework for any such developments in the future.

2. From political perspective, locally vis-a-vis PA subjects, this could be a good pilot for the younger generation and alternative structure of local leadership, and to shift the entire discourse,past the realization that eventually the most likely outcome, that there's vitality "from the river..." to any sovereignty other than of Israel. And a whole new set of questions raise to the front of the stage, it's a good thing to move the discourse.

3. Dr. Kedar's research emphasizing the weight of the local leadership,
must be taken seriously as well in any framework, even if not to full extent.
But it's a key to succeeding in minimizing the friction on the municipal level.
That the local discourse between representatives of various communities in Judea Samaria which has been set mainly away from govt platforms and media attention , will now get its due attention - also a good healthy development.

 

[ESay]

RE: Apparent majority for Jordan Valley Sovereignty vote
⁜→ rylah, et al,

I have to admit, I was wrong on this issue (extending Israeli Sovereignty over Judea and Samaria).

Poll: Most Jewish Israelis Support Applying Sovereignty

A majority of Jewish Israelis (52 percent) support Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s plan to apply sovereignty in Judea and Samaria, according to a poll published on Sunday.

(COMMENT)

If you would have asked me my thoughts on this, and settlements in general, a year ago (and I think that someone actually did) I would have said that Israel must know that at some point, they will have to give back much of the territory ceased in the wake of the Jordanian withdrawal. They would have to do this in the interest of peace on a more formal negotiation process and conflict resolution format. BUT that doesn't seem to be the case. It is not all Israel's fault. The Arab Palestinians own a lion's share of the outcome here.

What is really going to be the taste of the pudding, is the reaction of the Area Palestinians residing inside of the annexed Judea and Samaria, in comparison to those living outside.

There will be a Paradox here. Traditionally, the residents (Arab Palestinian) of an Annexed Territory (Judea and Samaria) are offered a new nationality. And if they accept, they become Israeli citizens with all the rights, protections, and privileges that come with that. Once that happens, the new Arab Israeli citizens will be allowed to move freely anywhere under the sovereignty of Israel in the same way the Israelis are allowed. Of course, each of the new citizens will have to avail themselves of the process that issues Israeli Identity Documents. They will have to register with the new subdivision office of the Israeli Central Elections Committee. I'm sure the Netanyahu government has thought all this out. The Israelis are going to have to provide police, fire, and emergency care facilities and infrastructure • to the same standard (even new drivers licenses and vehicle registration plate) and schools for the new areas.

Every Ministry across the government are going to have to plan and be ready to execute the transition. And it is going to have to be well executed; Israel cannot afford to screw this up. Even the Lishkat Hataasuka (employment services) are going to have to get in the act. This is not a very easy task. And there are no second chances. The better these actions are carried out, the more the Arab Palestinians on the outside are going to see what it means to be under the umbrella of Israeli sovereignty. Again, this is a very huge task and enormously complex. Even a local police and fire academies are going to be established; as well as vocational education and apprenticeship programs plugged into the communities. Meaning they have to put the unemplyed to

This is NOT a snap of your fingers, and like magic, it happens and everyone is happy. I'm wondering if the Knesset knows, or even has an idea, of what the consequences and obligations are in this undertaking. This is going to cost, a billion shekels - easily. It is not just a political question, but the intervention on a human development scale.

Just my thought.

Most Respectfully,
R

Are you saying that Israel should do its best to please 'annexed' Palestinians in an attempt to get a positive view from 'outside' Palestinians? If yes, then it is a pointless attempt.

Israel already has an Arab population, and this doesn't help it to get a positive image from Arab states.

The best solution would be to resettle Arabs from the territory in exchange for financial allowances.

 

[ESay]

Another Hamas'tan in the heart of the country is where people have reservations.

It is the main concern I think. That is why annexing of area C is only a half measure. Israel should develop a plan to annex all of the West Bank. With some kind of a concept 'one state for two nations'. With overall Israeli guidance of security policy on the whole of territory.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Apparent majority for Jordan Valley Sovereignty vote
⁜→ ESay, et al,

I compartmentalize these competing ideas of leadership and resource allocation. What I wrote about was "implementation;" and the need for a very detailed Phase IV Operation (Post-Conflict Operations) designed to give Post-Conflict stability the best chance for a end-result that is better than mere success at the conversion.

Are you saying that Israel should do its best to please 'annexed' Palestinians in an attempt to get a positive view from 'outside' Palestinians? If yes, then it is a pointless attempt.

(COMMENT)

In this case, the Arab Israeli citizens which are inside the current sovereign boundaries are NOT the concern being addressed. Within Area "C," there will be two groups of Arab Palestinians of concern:

◈ Arab Palestinians → those that will remain and accept Israeli Citizenship.​

◈ Arab Palestinians → those outside the annexed territory (Judea and Samaria) in Areas "A" - "B" - the Gaza Strip and certain parts of Jerusalem.​

Israel already has an Arab population, and this doesn't help it to get a positive image from Arab states.

(COMMENT)

In this case, we are not addressing the image the Arab League holds; although it does not hurt to improve that image.

The Arab Palestinians must be able to see and feel a real practical difference between the benefits and services Israel provides - versus - the benefits and services currently provided by the Ramallah and Gaza Governments.

IF there is not going to be a change for the better and improvements in treatment and services, THEN who does the change benefit?​

The change is not for the sole benefit of the Israelis. And it should not give that appearance of feel at all. The change is about how the Arab Palestinians are treated and giving them a voice in governmental affairs. To allow them to make real decisions that will affect their lives, the allocation of resources, and government operations.

The best solution would be to resettle Arabs from the territory in exchange for financial allowances.

(COMMENT)

The relocation and resettlement must be voluntary. It should be an option - sure. But it must be voluntary. The object is to move away from conditions that, in the eyes of the Arab Palestinians, warrant further anti-government activity.

I have been one of the strong opponents of Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) activities (Jihadism, Fedayeen Activism, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence). But by the very same token, I and the Israelis as well should want to see → (I dare say) need to see (advocate) the Jerusalem Government (Israeli) shine as a beacon of activity and a land of opportunity. Proving once and for all, that the Jewish National Home is an outstanding culture, an excellent environment in which to live, → and the critics have been entirely wrong over the last century of complaining.

But, at the end of the day, it is an Israeli domestic decision as to who they want to proceed.

Just my thought.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

Another Hamas'tan in the heart of the country is where people have reservations.

It is the main concern I think. That is why annexing of area C is only a half measure. Israel should develop a plan to annex all of the West Bank. With some kind of a concept 'one state for two nations'. With overall Israeli guidance of security policy on the whole of territory.

Depending on the trajectory of the govt,
but this is what, in my view, the current framework.

I still have many reservations about the Trump Vision,
especially signing into confirmation of PA, or else, as having authority in the land.

Today or in 10 years, as RoccoR said, it is essentially a domestic issue,
and I would add - logistically on a municipal level.
Infrastructure is the easiest part, already there.

Basically when do I know sovereignty is taking place?
When security is leveraged to Police.

 

[rylah]

RE: Apparent majority for Jordan Valley Sovereignty vote
⁜→ ESay, et al,

I compartmentalize these competing ideas of leadership and resource allocation. What I wrote about was "implementation;" and the need for a very detailed Phase IV Operation (Post-Conflict Operations) designed to give Post-Conflict stability the best chance for a end-result that is better than mere success at the conversion.

Are you saying that Israel should do its best to please 'annexed' Palestinians in an attempt to get a positive view from 'outside' Palestinians? If yes, then it is a pointless attempt.

(COMMENT)

In this case, the Arab Israeli citizens which are inside the current sovereign boundaries are NOT the concern being addressed. Within Area "C," there will be two groups of Arab Palestinians of concern:

◈ Arab Palestinians → those that will remain and accept Israeli Citizenship.​

◈ Arab Palestinians → those outside the annexed territory (Judea and Samaria) in Areas "A" - "B" - the Gaza Strip and certain parts of Jerusalem.​

Israel already has an Arab population, and this doesn't help it to get a positive image from Arab states.

(COMMENT)

In this case, we are not addressing the image the Arab League holds; although it does not hurt to improve that image.

The Arab Palestinians must be able to see and feel a real practical difference between the benefits and services Israel provides - versus - the benefits and services currently provided by the Ramallah and Gaza Governments.

IF there is not going to be a change for the better and improvements in treatment and services, THEN who does the change benefit?​

The change is not for the sole benefit of the Israelis. And it should not give that appearance of feel at all. The change is about how the Arab Palestinians are treated and giving them a voice in governmental affairs. To allow them to make real decisions that will affect their lives, the allocation of resources, and government operations.

The best solution would be to resettle Arabs from the territory in exchange for financial allowances.

(COMMENT)

The relocation and resettlement must be voluntary. It should be an option - sure. But it must be voluntary. The object is to move away from conditions that, in the eyes of the Arab Palestinians, warrant further anti-government activity.

I have been one of the strong opponents of Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) activities (Jihadism, Fedayeen Activism, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence). But by the very same token, I and the Israelis as well should want to see → (I dare say) need to see (advocate) the Jerusalem Government (Israeli) shine as a beacon of activity and a land of opportunity. Proving once and for all, that the Jewish National Home is an outstanding culture, an excellent environment in which to live, → and the critics have been entirely wrong over the last century of complaining.

But, at the end of the day, it is an Israeli domestic decision as to who they want to proceed.

Just my thought.

Most Respectfully,
R

I think a lot here depends on the balance between local govt and Knesset.
Namely, promoting local leadership of involved communities, and local contractors.

Rav Der'i is appointed Interior Minister and Rav Litzman Construction Ministry,
both come from parties that have solid Arab electorate and reputation for being personally very attentive in responding to the needs and requests of simple people.

I don't exaggerate, everyone knows someone who called Shas or UTJ offices and got help.
From this perspective, also important that the Orthodox folks have ideologically, and on a personal level, much in common with both communities in Judea Samaria and their nature.

 

[rylah]

Returning to the Israeli interest - the Jordan Valley first, no to the Deal of the Century

The Sovereignty Movement Reacts to the Visit of the American Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, and to the Establishment of the New Government

Although the fact that these two events placed the sovereignty issue on the political, diplomatic and media agenda is appreciated, it appears that, in fact, the Americans are once again dissipating the sovereignty section of their program.

This is the moment to remind ourselves and the world that the right of the Jewish people to its land does not stem from the White House, but rather, from an ancient divine promise. If the American administration chooses to support the advancement of the sovereignty process, it will do so in order to have the privilege of joining the movement of the wheels of history forward in the right, moral, and just direction.

The various diplomatic reports remind us that it is exclusively the American interests that are motivating the steps of the American administration. During the Prime Minister’s visit to the White House in January of this year, it was claimed that sovereignty would be applied in a matter of days. However, Jared Kushner immediately stopped it.

A week ago, Ambassador David Friedman reported the possibility of advancing sovereignty on July 1st. On Wednesday this week, the American Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, stated that he did not come from the United States in order to promote sovereignty. In other words, sovereignty can be deferred. The burning issues are Iran and China.

From all this, it is clear that the United States has its own considerations, and that is fine; however, Israel, too, must act on the basis of its interests and assert its sovereignty.

We are presented with the opportunity to abandon the dangerous Trump plan, and to begin to apply sovereignty in the Jordan Valley, regarding which there is a broad national consensus.

It is disappointing to see that, although the issue of sovereignty was included in the Prime Minister’s election campaign, there is no paragraph devoted to sovereignty among the fundamental principles of the new Israeli government. It is disappointing that the Prime Minister did not include the “Yamina” party, which is a strong proponent of sovereignty, in his government. “Yamina” could have constituted an additional and significant force, along with those in the Likud who are loyal to the Land of Israel, in promoting the implementation of the sovereignty vision.

This is the moment to take action in realizing the opportunity to promote the political process that has the support of the two leaders, Binyamin Netanyahu and Benny Gantz, as well as most of the government ministers – application of sovereignty in the Jordan Valley as the first step. This should be undertaken totally independent of the American Deal of the Century, without assuming the danger of the willingness, God forbid, to establish an Arab state on 70% of the territory of Judea and Samaria.

Returning to the Israeli interest - the Jordan Valley first, no to the Deal of the Century

The Sovereignty Movement Reacts to the Visit of the American Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, and to the Establishment of the New Government

ribonut.co.il

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Returning to the Israeli interest - the Jordan Valley first, no to the Deal of the Century

The Sovereignty Movement Reacts to the Visit of the American Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, and to the Establishment of the New Government

Although the fact that these two events placed the sovereignty issue on the political, diplomatic and media agenda is appreciated, it appears that, in fact, the Americans are once again dissipating the sovereignty section of their program.

This is the moment to remind ourselves and the world that the right of the Jewish people to its land does not stem from the White House, but rather, from an ancient divine promise. If the American administration chooses to support the advancement of the sovereignty process, it will do so in order to have the privilege of joining the movement of the wheels of history forward in the right, moral, and just direction.

The various diplomatic reports remind us that it is exclusively the American interests that are motivating the steps of the American administration. During the Prime Minister’s visit to the White House in January of this year, it was claimed that sovereignty would be applied in a matter of days. However, Jared Kushner immediately stopped it.

A week ago, Ambassador David Friedman reported the possibility of advancing sovereignty on July 1st. On Wednesday this week, the American Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, stated that he did not come from the United States in order to promote sovereignty. In other words, sovereignty can be deferred. The burning issues are Iran and China.

From all this, it is clear that the United States has its own considerations, and that is fine; however, Israel, too, must act on the basis of its interests and assert its sovereignty.

We are presented with the opportunity to abandon the dangerous Trump plan, and to begin to apply sovereignty in the Jordan Valley, regarding which there is a broad national consensus.

It is disappointing to see that, although the issue of sovereignty was included in the Prime Minister’s election campaign, there is no paragraph devoted to sovereignty among the fundamental principles of the new Israeli government. It is disappointing that the Prime Minister did not include the “Yamina” party, which is a strong proponent of sovereignty, in his government. “Yamina” could have constituted an additional and significant force, along with those in the Likud who are loyal to the Land of Israel, in promoting the implementation of the sovereignty vision.

This is the moment to take action in realizing the opportunity to promote the political process that has the support of the two leaders, Binyamin Netanyahu and Benny Gantz, as well as most of the government ministers – application of sovereignty in the Jordan Valley as the first step. This should be undertaken totally independent of the American Deal of the Century, without assuming the danger of the willingness, God forbid, to establish an Arab state on 70% of the territory of Judea and Samaria.

Returning to the Israeli interest - the Jordan Valley first, no to the Deal of the Century

The Sovereignty Movement Reacts to the Visit of the American Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, and to the Establishment of the New Government

ribonut.co.il

The Trump Plan gives Israel everything it's ever wanted. How can you describe it as dangerous? Israel maintains control over its airspace, security, water resources, settlements, holy sites and borders. If you look at the map of the Trump Plan, the Arab state would be completely at Israel's mercy.

 

[ESay]

RE: Apparent majority for Jordan Valley Sovereignty vote
⁜→ ESay, et al,

I compartmentalize these competing ideas of leadership and resource allocation. What I wrote about was "implementation;" and the need for a very detailed Phase IV Operation (Post-Conflict Operations) designed to give Post-Conflict stability the best chance for a end-result that is better than mere success at the conversion.

Are you saying that Israel should do its best to please 'annexed' Palestinians in an attempt to get a positive view from 'outside' Palestinians? If yes, then it is a pointless attempt.

(COMMENT)

In this case, the Arab Israeli citizens which are inside the current sovereign boundaries are NOT the concern being addressed. Within Area "C," there will be two groups of Arab Palestinians of concern:

◈ Arab Palestinians → those that will remain and accept Israeli Citizenship.​

◈ Arab Palestinians → those outside the annexed territory (Judea and Samaria) in Areas "A" - "B" - the Gaza Strip and certain parts of Jerusalem.​

Israel already has an Arab population, and this doesn't help it to get a positive image from Arab states.

(COMMENT)

In this case, we are not addressing the image the Arab League holds; although it does not hurt to improve that image.

The Arab Palestinians must be able to see and feel a real practical difference between the benefits and services Israel provides - versus - the benefits and services currently provided by the Ramallah and Gaza Governments.

IF there is not going to be a change for the better and improvements in treatment and services, THEN who does the change benefit?​

The change is not for the sole benefit of the Israelis. And it should not give that appearance of feel at all. The change is about how the Arab Palestinians are treated and giving them a voice in governmental affairs. To allow them to make real decisions that will affect their lives, the allocation of resources, and government operations.

The best solution would be to resettle Arabs from the territory in exchange for financial allowances.

(COMMENT)

The relocation and resettlement must be voluntary. It should be an option - sure. But it must be voluntary. The object is to move away from conditions that, in the eyes of the Arab Palestinians, warrant further anti-government activity.

I have been one of the strong opponents of Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) activities (Jihadism, Fedayeen Activism, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence). But by the very same token, I and the Israelis as well should want to see → (I dare say) need to see (advocate) the Jerusalem Government (Israeli) shine as a beacon of activity and a land of opportunity. Proving once and for all, that the Jewish National Home is an outstanding culture, an excellent environment in which to live, → and the critics have been entirely wrong over the last century of complaining.

But, at the end of the day, it is an Israeli domestic decision as to who they want to proceed.

Just my thought.

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't get your idea. 'Annexed' Palestinians should have the same rights and benefits as Israeli Arabs and other citizens. They shouldn't expect any extra benefits to please someone inside or outside. It is pointless. It will lead only to increasing demands as time passing by.

About political matters. Frankly, I can hardly see as the Israelis allow the Arabs more influence into domestic and foreign affairs. I think that solution 'one state for two nations' should include autonomy for Arabs in certain areas. The more they get autonomy within their communities (including economical affairs), the less they get rights in forming Israel's government.

 

[ESay]

Another Hamas'tan in the heart of the country is where people have reservations.

It is the main concern I think. That is why annexing of area C is only a half measure. Israel should develop a plan to annex all of the West Bank. With some kind of a concept 'one state for two nations'. With overall Israeli guidance of security policy on the whole of territory.

Depending on the trajectory of the govt,
but this is what, in my view, the current framework.

I still have many reservations about the Trump Vision,
especially signing into confirmation of PA, or else, as having authority in the land.

Today or in 10 years, as RoccoR said, it is essentially a domestic issue,
and I would add - logistically on a municipal level.
Infrastructure is the easiest part, already there.

Basically when do I know sovereignty is taking place?
When security is leveraged to Police.

I think that Israel will get to the idea of joining all the West Bank in one form or another. It is only a matter of time.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Apparent majority for Jordan Valley Sovereignty vote
⁜→ ESay, et al,

✪ Well, I do not think in terms of "what should be" --- but rather --- "what actually exists in reality."

I don't get your idea. 'Annexed' Palestinians should have the same rights and benefits as Israeli Arabs and other citizens.

(COMMENT)

Arab Israelis that live in Israel (inside the actual borders of Israel), live quite literally, in a political environment of greater rights, privileges, and benefits from other Arabs in the greater Palestine territory (Areas "A" • "B" • "C" and certain parts of Jerusalem).

Being considered is the Annexation of Judea and Samaria. Right now, the Arab Palestinians do NOT have the same political environment of greater rights, privileges, and benefits as compared to the Arab Israelis holding Israeli citizenship. IF (or when) Judea and Samaria are annexed, THEN those Arab Palestinians will have the same political environment of greater rights, privileges, and benefits as the Arab Israelis currently with citizenship.

This is subtracting the set of Arab Palestinians in Judea and Samaria region (Set A), from the set of Arab Palestinians that do not hold Israel Citizenship (Set B); and inserting (SET A) into the (SET I) of Arab Israelis. (SET B) - (SET A) THEN the union of (SET A) + (SET I)

If that is beyond your ability to recognize, then there is not much to discuss.

They shouldn't expect any extra benefits to please someone inside or outside. It is pointless. It will lead only to increasing demands as time passing by.

(COMMENT)

I disagree. The set of Arab Palestinians in Judea and Samaria region (Set A) will expect to be treated the same as any other Israel; the same environment of greater rights, privileges, and benefits as any other Israeli. The same treatment as any holder of Israeli Citizenship. Under International Law, the Arab Palestinians in Judea and Samaria region (Set A) will cease to be the protected persons of the Disputed Palestinian Territory and become citizens of the Occupying Power. They will be subject to Israeli Domestic Laws and Freedoms. They cannot be discriminated against. They should be allowed the freedom to travel the same as any other Israeli.

About political matters. Frankly, I can hardly see as the Israelis allow the Arabs more influence into domestic and foreign affairs. I think that solution 'one state for two nations' should include autonomy for Arabs in certain areas. The more they get autonomy within their communities (including economical affairs), the less they get rights in forming Israel's government.

(COMMENT)

OK, but that is much different then Annexation. The Israeli Government is not (to the best of my knowledge) considering the issue of autonomy.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[ESay]

RE: Apparent majority for Jordan Valley Sovereignty vote
⁜→ ESay, et al,

✪ Well, I do not think in terms of "what should be" --- but rather --- "what actually exists in reality."

I don't get your idea. 'Annexed' Palestinians should have the same rights and benefits as Israeli Arabs and other citizens.

(COMMENT)

Arab Israelis that live in Israel (inside the actual borders of Israel), live quite literally, in a political environment of greater rights, privileges, and benefits from other Arabs in the greater Palestine territory (Areas "A" • "B" • "C" and certain parts of Jerusalem).

Being considered is the Annexation of Judea and Samaria. Right now, the Arab Palestinians do NOT have the same political environment of greater rights, privileges, and benefits as compared to the Arab Israelis holding Israeli citizenship. IF (or when) Judea and Samaria are annexed, THEN those Arab Palestinians will have the same political environment of greater rights, privileges, and benefits as the Arab Israelis currently with citizenship.

This is subtracting the set of Arab Palestinians in Judea and Samaria region (Set A), from the set of Arab Palestinians that do not hold Israel Citizenship (Set B); and inserting (SET A) into the (SET I) of Arab Israelis. (SET B) - (SET A) THEN the union of (SET A) + (SET I)

If that is beyond your ability to recognize, then there is not much to discuss.

They shouldn't expect any extra benefits to please someone inside or outside. It is pointless. It will lead only to increasing demands as time passing by.

(COMMENT)

I disagree. The set of Arab Palestinians in Judea and Samaria region (Set A) will expect to be treated the same as any other Israel; the same environment of greater rights, privileges, and benefits as any other Israeli. The same treatment as any holder of Israeli Citizenship. Under International Law, the Arab Palestinians in Judea and Samaria region (Set A) will cease to be the protected persons of the Disputed Palestinian Territory and become citizens of the Occupying Power. They will be subject to Israeli Domestic Laws and Freedoms. They cannot be discriminated against. They should be allowed the freedom to travel the same as any other Israeli.

About political matters. Frankly, I can hardly see as the Israelis allow the Arabs more influence into domestic and foreign affairs. I think that solution 'one state for two nations' should include autonomy for Arabs in certain areas. The more they get autonomy within their communities (including economical affairs), the less they get rights in forming Israel's government.

(COMMENT)

OK, but that is much different then Annexation. The Israeli Government is not (to the best of my knowledge) considering the issue of autonomy.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, it is beyond my abilities to recognize. I don't think they are too concerned about their political environment currently. And also I don't think they are too concerned about greater opportunities Israel can provide to them.

I am talking about the West Bank as a whole. And in my opinion (only in my opinion) its annexation only a matter of time. And after that, when the Arab population in Israel will increase significantly, the Israeli government should find a way to curb political influence of Arabs in order to keep Israel as a stable functioning state.

Are you an Israeli citizen? If yes, then my reasoning doesn't make sense, because you know better situation on the ground.

 

[rylah]

Returning to the Israeli interest - the Jordan Valley first, no to the Deal of the Century

The Sovereignty Movement Reacts to the Visit of the American Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, and to the Establishment of the New Government

Although the fact that these two events placed the sovereignty issue on the political, diplomatic and media agenda is appreciated, it appears that, in fact, the Americans are once again dissipating the sovereignty section of their program.

This is the moment to remind ourselves and the world that the right of the Jewish people to its land does not stem from the White House, but rather, from an ancient divine promise. If the American administration chooses to support the advancement of the sovereignty process, it will do so in order to have the privilege of joining the movement of the wheels of history forward in the right, moral, and just direction.

The various diplomatic reports remind us that it is exclusively the American interests that are motivating the steps of the American administration. During the Prime Minister’s visit to the White House in January of this year, it was claimed that sovereignty would be applied in a matter of days. However, Jared Kushner immediately stopped it.

A week ago, Ambassador David Friedman reported the possibility of advancing sovereignty on July 1st. On Wednesday this week, the American Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, stated that he did not come from the United States in order to promote sovereignty. In other words, sovereignty can be deferred. The burning issues are Iran and China.

From all this, it is clear that the United States has its own considerations, and that is fine; however, Israel, too, must act on the basis of its interests and assert its sovereignty.

We are presented with the opportunity to abandon the dangerous Trump plan, and to begin to apply sovereignty in the Jordan Valley, regarding which there is a broad national consensus.

It is disappointing to see that, although the issue of sovereignty was included in the Prime Minister’s election campaign, there is no paragraph devoted to sovereignty among the fundamental principles of the new Israeli government. It is disappointing that the Prime Minister did not include the “Yamina” party, which is a strong proponent of sovereignty, in his government. “Yamina” could have constituted an additional and significant force, along with those in the Likud who are loyal to the Land of Israel, in promoting the implementation of the sovereignty vision.

This is the moment to take action in realizing the opportunity to promote the political process that has the support of the two leaders, Binyamin Netanyahu and Benny Gantz, as well as most of the government ministers – application of sovereignty in the Jordan Valley as the first step. This should be undertaken totally independent of the American Deal of the Century, without assuming the danger of the willingness, God forbid, to establish an Arab state on 70% of the territory of Judea and Samaria.

Returning to the Israeli interest - the Jordan Valley first, no to the Deal of the Century

The Sovereignty Movement Reacts to the Visit of the American Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, and to the Establishment of the New Government

ribonut.co.il

The Trump Plan gives Israel everything it's ever wanted. How can you describe it as dangerous? Israel maintains control over its airspace, security, water resources, settlements, holy sites and borders. If you look at the map of the Trump Plan, the Arab state would be completely at Israel's mercy.

Looking at the other side of the coin.

Everything ever wanted, holy sites...You sure?
The later is not much in the scope of the current framework,
and shouldn't be a function of an agreement with a 3rd side.

The whole scope is enforcing sovereignty - on both sides.
I don't want for any Arab state 'between the river and the sea' to be at Israel's mercy,
all I want is Israeli sovereignty, without any obligations to any other national aspirations.

Those options to sovereignty are always open,
Israel didn't need the US to know or allow this, what the US is doing is merely expressing an opinion to motivate Israel implement a sovereign decision that no one else can. And if not for the political situation, Dr. Guy Bechor says we would have a much wider scope of a plan.

We don't need those obligations in the plan, only implement our sovereign decision.

 

[rylah]

US: Israel has ‘Right and Obligation’ to Annex on its Own Terms

Declaring Israeli sovereignty over Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria is “Israel’s decision,” said U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo in Jerusalem on Wednesday.

By United with Israel and AP

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo met Wednesday with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to discuss the country’s plans to annex Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria.

Pompeo commented during the visit that Israel’s new government “the right and the obligation” to determine how it will apply sovereignty over those areas, which are already under Israeli control and have been since 1967.

“I reminded [Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Alternate Prime Minister Benny Gantz] that, annexation is an Israeli decision,” Pompeo said in comments published by Israel Hayom.

US: Israel Has a 'Right and Obligation’ to Annexation on its Own Terms | United with Israel

Declaring Israeli sovereignty over Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria is 'Israel's decision,' said U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo in Jerusalem on Wednesday.

unitedwithisrael.org

 

[rylah]

Arabs to Yossi Dagan - 'Many of us pray for sovereignty'

Palestinians and Samaria Council Chairman Yossi Dagan dined together to mark Ramadan and Lag Ba'Omer. " To Stop the Palestinian Authority's terrorist path".

Arab and Palestinian leaders arrived at the offices of the Samaria Regional Council on Monday to celebrate Iftar meal together with Lag Ba'omer, with head of Council Yossi Dagan.

Among those in attendance were Sheikh Abu Khalil Tamimi of Ramallah, Mohammed Massad of Jenin, Sarah Zuabi as well as other Palestinian leaders who preferred to hide their identities for fear of their lives.

Dagan and the Palestinians discussed the impact of the 'Plan of the Century' on the region, the eradication of terrorism and incitement to Palestinian violence, and discussed with them ways to maintain peace and economic and social cooperation.

"Terrorism is the result of the incitement of the Palestinian Authority," Dagan said. "We work with local leaders and Sheikhs who are opposition to the PA and oppose the terrorist path. We have controversies and there are many things we see eye to eye. First and foremost, it is important to have a shared dialogue with those who are ready and want to see a settlement of partners.

"There is an alternative to the murderous Palestinian Authority, leaders who are quietly interested in co-existence and are sitting here with us. The Trump program largely relies on the economic models developed in our industrial areas, and these are our natural partners for co-living here. "

Sheikh Abu Khalil Tamimi addressed the application of expected sovereignty and the Palestinian attitude to the issue: "I believe sovereignty exists in the 1967 region and I think the situation must be dealt with through dialogue and promotion of coexistence. To stop the spread of hatred. For the simple Palestinian there's no meaning in applying sovereignty in the way that the territories in the C part of Judea are under Israeli control since 1967, so it's not new.

"Most Palestinians also want to live in peace, to reach good political agreements and solutions as quickly as possible. This is what the average Palestinian thinks about the 'Plan of the Century' and the application of sovereignty. We want to appreciate the regional changes, to concentrate on economic cooperation also with the settlers, led by Yossi Dagan, need to think together what the common future will look like. "

Mohammed Masad, who heads the Palestinian Workers' Union of 40,000, said: "I came to think together with the head of the Samaritan Council how to maintain the rights of Palestinian workers even after applying sovereignty. The Palestinian workers are against the terror, and against the corruption of the Palestinian Authority. If the Israeli worker and the Palestinian worker work together caring for each other, together in joy and together in difficult moments, then our children will be ashamed of the fight. Peace negotiations will not be necessary because there is peace. "

Sarah Zoabi said at the event: "Thank you to Mr. Yossi Dagan for this initiative, which is important for cooperation between Palestinian and Israeli Arabs. I think the Centennial Plan is the right thing for Arabs and Israelis and I know that a large percentage of Palestinians are interested in the program and applying sovereignty, and even pray for it. ''

פלסטינים ליוסי דגן: רבים מאיתנו מתפללים לריבונות - חדשות מדיניות ופוליטיקה

www.inn.co.il

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Apparent majority for Jordan Valley Sovereignty vote
⁜→ rylah, et al,

BLUF: Interesting, they got something right for once!!

“I reminded [Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Alternate Prime Minister Benny Gantz] that, annexation is an Israeli decision,” Pompeo said in comments published by Israel Hayom.

(COMMENT)

Secretary Pompeo is not stuck in the dogma of traditionally taught at the Foreign Service Institute (FSI), Arlington. While the administrative portion of FSI is satisfactory, the true test of the output is the long term success or failure in the program. And the development of a positive American Foreign Policy has been woefully unsuccessful since the turn of the century.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Apparent majority for Jordan Valley Sovereignty vote
⁜→ rylah, et al,

BLUF: While I am amazed, that an Arab Palestinian would say this, I agree with the characterization of the Palestinian Authority (PA) as a major source of incitement.

"Terrorism is the result of the incitement of the Palestinian Authority," Dagan said. "We work with local leaders and Sheikhs who are opposition to the PA and oppose the terrorist path. We have controversies and there are many things we see eye to eye. First and foremost, it is important to have a shared dialogue with those who are ready and want to see a settlement of partners.

"There is an alternative to the murderous Palestinian Authority, leaders who are quietly interested in co-existence and are sitting here with us. The Trump program largely relies on the economic models developed in our industrial areas, and these are our natural partners for co-living here. "

(COMMENT)

Why US Foreign Policy still gives one penny (developmental, foreign aid, or otherwise) to the PA is beyond me. It is simply counterproductive.

I (sort of) question the idea that a majority of the Arab Palestinians in Samaria "want to live in peace," and work against the incitement of violence.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

RE: Apparent majority for Jordan Valley Sovereignty vote
⁜→ rylah, et al,

BLUF: While I am amazed, that an Arab Palestinian would say this, I agree with the characterization of the Palestinian Authority (PA) as a major source of incitement.

"Terrorism is the result of the incitement of the Palestinian Authority," Dagan said. "We work with local leaders and Sheikhs who are opposition to the PA and oppose the terrorist path. We have controversies and there are many things we see eye to eye. First and foremost, it is important to have a shared dialogue with those who are ready and want to see a settlement of partners.

"There is an alternative to the murderous Palestinian Authority, leaders who are quietly interested in co-existence and are sitting here with us. The Trump program largely relies on the economic models developed in our industrial areas, and these are our natural partners for co-living here. "

(COMMENT)

Why US Foreign Policy still gives one penny (developmental, foreign aid, or otherwise) to the PA is beyond me. It is simply counterproductive.

I (sort of) question the idea that a majority of the Arab Palestinians in Samaria "want to live in peace," and work against the incitement of violence.

Most Respectfully,
R

According to western values,
no they don't want peace and neither know what it means.
One of main values at the top of their priority is family reputation.
With all that entails, as we see in the social tension in the Arab world.

Give me some time to think how to sum up an answer for this seemingly simple question,
without it turning into an anthropology dissertation.

But practically, I think we already had several discussions about the options presented to address a scenario of applying sovereignty in territory with large population of subjects to a dissolved enemy govt, which is not exactly the case. However same options, as proposed by MK Smotrich and MK Feiglin regarding militants on the one hand, and path to acquiring citizenship on the other, both serve the same purpose of separating militants from civilian population - and are both potent in this case.

 

[ESay]

Mahmud Abbas has claimed that he may decide to withdraw from the agreements with Israel signed in 1990s, in the wake of announcements of the possible annexation.

Many experts and diplomats think this threat won't come true, though. They claim such a move will mean the end of the project 'two states for two nations'.

Article on Russian.

Президент Палестины готов вернуться в прошлое

Махмуд Аббас намерен выйти из соглашений с Израилем

www.kommersant.ru

It would be good if he actually did this. In the short term, it would mean negative consequences for Israel (first of all, the security ones). But in a long term perspective, it would play in Israel's favor.