Anyone remember what happened after the NATO summit in Bucharest in 2008?

[berg80]

The summit was not a shinning moment for its members. On the docket, whether to admit Ukraine and Georgia, both nations having been part of the USSR. When it came time to vote the NATO signatories decided not to include those nations fearing a military response by Russia. Largely because Putin had given every indication he saw an expanded NATO as a threat to Russia's security.

NATO Says ‘No’ to Georgia and Ukraine … For Now​

NATO Says 'No' to Georgia and Ukraine ... For Now

It’s official – NATO will not offer Georgia and Ukraine Membership Action Plans (MAPs), Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said after a two-day summit of NATO foreign ministers in Brussels. By maintaining its policy from April of eventual but not immediate membership for Georgia and...

www.atlanticcouncil.org

What happened after the vote? It got a military response anyway when Russia invaded Georgia. It was the first time since the end of WWII that a European nation had been invaded by another. What was the West's reaction?

Lonely Night in Georgia​

The Bush administration’s feckless response to the Russian invasion.​

The Bush administration's feckless response to the Russian invasion of Georgia.

It is impossible to think about the Russian assault on Georgia without feeling like a heartless bastard or a romantic fool. Should we just let...

slate.com

Bush Slams Russia's Invasion Of Georgia​

Russian tanks roared deep into Georgia on Monday, launching a new western front in the conflict, and Russian planes staged air raids that sent people screaming and fleeing for cover in some towns.

The escalating warfare brought sharp words from President Bush, who pressed Moscow to accept an immediate cease-fire and pull its troops out to avert a "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence in the former Soviet republic.

Touring battle damage on Monday, Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili said he heard a Russian jet and feared he might be its target, reports CBS News correspondent Richard Roth. Bodyguards bundled him away. His people don't have that protection.

"We are basically seeing the cold-blooded, preplanned, premeditated murder of a small country," said Saakashvili.

There's a moral duty for the world to respond to the invasion Georgia, he said. But, as Roth reports, diplomacy is the only weapon the West is using.

Bush Slams Russia's Invasion Of Georgia

"Dramatic And Brutal Escalation" Condemned As Russian Troops Push Out Of Breakaway Regions, Into Western-Allied Neighbor

www.cbsnews.com

The West told Putin he was a naughty boy after the incursion in to Georgia but did little else.

AI Overview

Yes, Western countries largely continued to purchase Russian oil and gas after the 2008 invasion of Georgia. Despite the crisis causing a diplomatic rupture between Russia and the West, European countries remained dependent on Russian energy supplies and feared severe economic consequences if energy flows were disrupted.

A nuclear armed Russia with a dangerously reckless leader kept NATO from voting in Ukraine and Georgia and it kept the alliance from responding militarily as well when Putin moved in to Georgia. A lesson Putin took to mean he could do as he pleased when it came to parts of the former USSR. And he was right........until Biden coordinated a response by the US and NATO allies after the Ukraine invasion.

So, who was at fault for Russia invading a part of Georgia and maintaining control of 20% of it to this day? Putin.......PUTIN is at fault. Just as Putin is at fault for invading Crimea and Ukraine despite finger pointing to the contrary. Something to think about the next time Repubs try to lay blame at the feet of Obama and Biden for Putin's actions.

 

[shockedcanadian]

After the collapse of the Soviet Union America should have solidified the lines between communism and capitalism. It should have demanded nations remain in line with America, instead you handed China trillions of dollars and 10s of thousands of factories. Think about that 60-70,000 factories left for China, each factory employs, what, 100-500 people?

Instead, the terrorists won after 9/11 because the response ended up hurting America long term as China rose (and China was VERY happy to see America bogged down in the M.E), trillions were wasted in the M.E, thousands of lives lost.

Realistically, Ukraine may never have been part of NATO so it's a difficult situation. Did we want to risk them having nukes, an unknown nation regaining its sovereignty? So many questions that would have needed to be answered and there aren't any easy answers for the time.

 

[berg80]

After the collapse of the Soviet Union America should have solidified the lines between communism and capitalism. It should have demanded nations remain in line with America, instead you handed China trillions of dollars and 10s of thousands of factories. Think about that 60-70,000 factories left for China, each factory employs, what, 100-500 people?

Instead, the terrorists won after 9/11 because the response ended up hurting America long term as China rose (and China was VERY happy to see America bogged down in the M.E), trillions were wasted in the M.E, thousands of lives lost.

Realistically, Ukraine may never have been part of NATO so it's a difficult situation. Did we want to risk them having nukes, an unknown nation regaining its sovereignty? So many questions that would have needed to be answered and there aren't any easy answers for the time.

Way too many inaccuracies to address. The point being NATO's decision not to include Georgia and Ukraine, not an entirely unjustified decision, emboldened Putin and contributed to where we are today. But regardless of what happened in Bucharest Putin and Putin alone bears responsibility for the invasions of neighboring countries.

 

[Seymour Flops]

The summit was not a shinning moment for its members. On the docket, whether to admit Ukraine and Georgia, both nations having been part of the USSR. When it came time to vote the NATO signatories decided not to include those nations fearing a military response by Russia. Largely because Putin had given every indication he saw an expanded NATO as a threat to Russia's security.

NATO Says ‘No’ to Georgia and Ukraine … For Now​

NATO Says 'No' to Georgia and Ukraine ... For Now

It’s official – NATO will not offer Georgia and Ukraine Membership Action Plans (MAPs), Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said after a two-day summit of NATO foreign ministers in Brussels. By maintaining its policy from April of eventual but not immediate membership for Georgia and...

www.atlanticcouncil.org

What happened after the vote? It got a military response anyway when Russia invaded Georgia. It was the first time since the end of WWII that a European nation had been invaded by another. What was the West's reaction?

Lonely Night in Georgia​

The Bush administration’s feckless response to the Russian invasion.​

The Bush administration's feckless response to the Russian invasion of Georgia.

It is impossible to think about the Russian assault on Georgia without feeling like a heartless bastard or a romantic fool. Should we just let...

slate.com

Bush Slams Russia's Invasion Of Georgia​

Russian tanks roared deep into Georgia on Monday, launching a new western front in the conflict, and Russian planes staged air raids that sent people screaming and fleeing for cover in some towns.

The escalating warfare brought sharp words from President Bush, who pressed Moscow to accept an immediate cease-fire and pull its troops out to avert a "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence in the former Soviet republic.

Touring battle damage on Monday, Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili said he heard a Russian jet and feared he might be its target, reports CBS News correspondent Richard Roth. Bodyguards bundled him away. His people don't have that protection.

"We are basically seeing the cold-blooded, preplanned, premeditated murder of a small country," said Saakashvili.

There's a moral duty for the world to respond to the invasion Georgia, he said. But, as Roth reports, diplomacy is the only weapon the West is using.

Bush Slams Russia's Invasion Of Georgia

"Dramatic And Brutal Escalation" Condemned As Russian Troops Push Out Of Breakaway Regions, Into Western-Allied Neighbor

www.cbsnews.com

The West told Putin he was a naughty boy after the incursion in to Georgia but did little else.

AI Overview

Yes, Western countries largely continued to purchase Russian oil and gas after the 2008 invasion of Georgia. Despite the crisis causing a diplomatic rupture between Russia and the West, European countries remained dependent on Russian energy supplies and feared severe economic consequences if energy flows were disrupted.

A nuclear armed Russia with a dangerously reckless leader kept NATO from voting in Ukraine and Georgia and it kept the alliance from responding militarily as well when Putin moved in to Georgia. A lesson Putin took to mean he could do as he pleased when it came to parts of the former USSR. And he was right........until Biden coordinated a response by the US and NATO allies after the Ukraine invasion.

So, who was at fault for Russia invading a part of Georgia and maintaining control of 20% of it to this day? Putin.......PUTIN is at fault. Just as Putin is at fault for invading Crimea and Ukraine despite finger pointing to the contrary. Something to think about the next time Repubs try to lay blame at the feet of Obama and Biden for Putin's actions.

Sounds like it was a rare wise move by the members of NATO. Russia was planning to invade Georgia no matter what.

Suppose NATO had allowed them to join and Russia had invaded? First of all, politically, everone who had opposed the admission of Georgia into NATO would feel vindicated and crow "I told you so."

Second of all what?

NATO fights back and then the U.S. sends troops to turn that invasion into World War III? Do you really think that seven years after 9/11, there was appetite in the U.S. for yet another European all-out war, making three times in a hundred year period? Ask ten random Americans where Georgia is and they will all say in the American South. Say "no, the other Georgia" and at least seven will say "there's another one?"

So most likely, the U.S. would have done nothing but diplomacy anyway, this making our commitment to NATO into a lie. That or our bought-out politicians would have given billions to the arms industry to keep the war going so they could give more billions to the arms industry.

It is very easy to criticize what was actually done. Try saying what you think should have been done and defending it.

 

[struth]

The summit was not a shinning moment for its members. On the docket, whether to admit Ukraine and Georgia, both nations having been part of the USSR. When it came time to vote the NATO signatories decided not to include those nations fearing a military response by Russia. Largely because Putin had given every indication he saw an expanded NATO as a threat to Russia's security.

NATO Says ‘No’ to Georgia and Ukraine … For Now​

NATO Says 'No' to Georgia and Ukraine ... For Now

It’s official – NATO will not offer Georgia and Ukraine Membership Action Plans (MAPs), Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said after a two-day summit of NATO foreign ministers in Brussels. By maintaining its policy from April of eventual but not immediate membership for Georgia and...

www.atlanticcouncil.org

What happened after the vote? It got a military response anyway when Russia invaded Georgia. It was the first time since the end of WWII that a European nation had been invaded by another. What was the West's reaction?

Lonely Night in Georgia​

The Bush administration’s feckless response to the Russian invasion.​

The Bush administration's feckless response to the Russian invasion of Georgia.

It is impossible to think about the Russian assault on Georgia without feeling like a heartless bastard or a romantic fool. Should we just let...

slate.com

Bush Slams Russia's Invasion Of Georgia​

Russian tanks roared deep into Georgia on Monday, launching a new western front in the conflict, and Russian planes staged air raids that sent people screaming and fleeing for cover in some towns.

The escalating warfare brought sharp words from President Bush, who pressed Moscow to accept an immediate cease-fire and pull its troops out to avert a "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence in the former Soviet republic.

Touring battle damage on Monday, Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili said he heard a Russian jet and feared he might be its target, reports CBS News correspondent Richard Roth. Bodyguards bundled him away. His people don't have that protection.

"We are basically seeing the cold-blooded, preplanned, premeditated murder of a small country," said Saakashvili.

There's a moral duty for the world to respond to the invasion Georgia, he said. But, as Roth reports, diplomacy is the only weapon the West is using.

Bush Slams Russia's Invasion Of Georgia

"Dramatic And Brutal Escalation" Condemned As Russian Troops Push Out Of Breakaway Regions, Into Western-Allied Neighbor

www.cbsnews.com

The West told Putin he was a naughty boy after the incursion in to Georgia but did little else.

AI Overview

Yes, Western countries largely continued to purchase Russian oil and gas after the 2008 invasion of Georgia. Despite the crisis causing a diplomatic rupture between Russia and the West, European countries remained dependent on Russian energy supplies and feared severe economic consequences if energy flows were disrupted.

A nuclear armed Russia with a dangerously reckless leader kept NATO from voting in Ukraine and Georgia and it kept the alliance from responding militarily as well when Putin moved in to Georgia. A lesson Putin took to mean he could do as he pleased when it came to parts of the former USSR. And he was right........until Biden coordinated a response by the US and NATO allies after the Ukraine invasion.

So, who was at fault for Russia invading a part of Georgia and maintaining control of 20% of it to this day? Putin.......PUTIN is at fault. Just as Putin is at fault for invading Crimea and Ukraine despite finger pointing to the contrary. Something to think about the next time Repubs try to lay blame at the feet of Obama and Biden for Putin's actions.

Then Obama, Clinton and Xiden took office, famously reset relations with Putin and promised to be more flexible

 

[berg80]

Sounds like it was a rare wise move by the members of NATO. Russia was planning to invade Georgia no matter what.

Suppose NATO had allowed them to join and Russia had invaded? First of all, politically, everone who had opposed the admission of Georgia into NATO would feel vindicated and crow "I told you so."

Second of all what?

NATO fights back and then the U.S. sends troops to turn that invasion into World War III? Do you really think that seven years after 9/11, there was appetite in the U.S. for yet another European all-out war, making three times in a hundred year period? Ask ten random Americans where Georgia is and they will all say in the American South. Say "no, the other Georgia" and at least seven will say "there's another one?"

So most likely, the U.S. would have done nothing but diplomacy anyway, this making our commitment to NATO into a lie. That or our bought-out politicians would have given billions to the arms industry to keep the war going so they could give more billions to the arms industry.

It is very easy to criticize what was actually done. Try saying what you think should have been done and defending it.

IOW, when the Right blames Obama and Biden for Putin's aggression its criticism is ignorant of history and intellectually dishonest. I sincerely appreciate you helping to make my point.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Way too many inaccuracies to address. The point being NATO's decision not to include Georgia and Ukraine, not an entirely unjustified decision, emboldened Putin and contributed to where we are today. But regardless of what happened in Bucharest Putin and Putin alone bears responsibility for the invasions of neighboring countries.

Of course Putin is responsible for the invasions. Only through perceived weakness of America (and well placed Russian sources) does Putin take the open shot.

Way too many inaccuracies? You do not have a monopoly on the truth, especially when it is a murky subject and the thinking now isn't the same it would have been then as we have complete information today.

 

[Lesh]

The summit was not a shinning moment for its members. On the docket, whether to admit Ukraine and Georgia, both nations having been part of the USSR. When it came time to vote the NATO signatories decided not to include those nations fearing a military response by Russia. Largely because Putin had given every indication he saw an expanded NATO as a threat to Russia's security.

NATO Says ‘No’ to Georgia and Ukraine … For Now​

NATO Says 'No' to Georgia and Ukraine ... For Now

It’s official – NATO will not offer Georgia and Ukraine Membership Action Plans (MAPs), Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said after a two-day summit of NATO foreign ministers in Brussels. By maintaining its policy from April of eventual but not immediate membership for Georgia and...

www.atlanticcouncil.org

What happened after the vote? It got a military response anyway when Russia invaded Georgia. It was the first time since the end of WWII that a European nation had been invaded by another. What was the West's reaction?

Lonely Night in Georgia​

The Bush administration’s feckless response to the Russian invasion.​

The Bush administration's feckless response to the Russian invasion of Georgia.

It is impossible to think about the Russian assault on Georgia without feeling like a heartless bastard or a romantic fool. Should we just let...

slate.com

Bush Slams Russia's Invasion Of Georgia​

Russian tanks roared deep into Georgia on Monday, launching a new western front in the conflict, and Russian planes staged air raids that sent people screaming and fleeing for cover in some towns.

The escalating warfare brought sharp words from President Bush, who pressed Moscow to accept an immediate cease-fire and pull its troops out to avert a "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence in the former Soviet republic.

Touring battle damage on Monday, Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili said he heard a Russian jet and feared he might be its target, reports CBS News correspondent Richard Roth. Bodyguards bundled him away. His people don't have that protection.

"We are basically seeing the cold-blooded, preplanned, premeditated murder of a small country," said Saakashvili.

There's a moral duty for the world to respond to the invasion Georgia, he said. But, as Roth reports, diplomacy is the only weapon the West is using.

Bush Slams Russia's Invasion Of Georgia

"Dramatic And Brutal Escalation" Condemned As Russian Troops Push Out Of Breakaway Regions, Into Western-Allied Neighbor

www.cbsnews.com

The West told Putin he was a naughty boy after the incursion in to Georgia but did little else.

AI Overview

Yes, Western countries largely continued to purchase Russian oil and gas after the 2008 invasion of Georgia. Despite the crisis causing a diplomatic rupture between Russia and the West, European countries remained dependent on Russian energy supplies and feared severe economic consequences if energy flows were disrupted.

A nuclear armed Russia with a dangerously reckless leader kept NATO from voting in Ukraine and Georgia and it kept the alliance from responding militarily as well when Putin moved in to Georgia. A lesson Putin took to mean he could do as he pleased when it came to parts of the former USSR. And he was right........until Biden coordinated a response by the US and NATO allies after the Ukraine invasion.

So, who was at fault for Russia invading a part of Georgia and maintaining control of 20% of it to this day? Putin.......PUTIN is at fault. Just as Putin is at fault for invading Crimea and Ukraine despite finger pointing to the contrary. Something to think about the next time Repubs try to lay blame at the feet of Obama and Biden for Putin's actions.

Wait. You mean Putin can’t be trusted?

He’s an expansionist war monger?

Oh

 

[struth]

IOW, when the Right blames Obama and Biden for Putin's aggression its criticism is ignorant of history. I sincerely appreciate you helping to make my point.

Facts matter

 

[Nostra]

Poor Stalinberg, has to travel back to 2008 to find stuff to whine and cry about.

Sux to be you.

 

[DonGlock26]

The summit was not a shinning moment for its members. On the docket, whether to admit Ukraine and Georgia, both nations having been part of the USSR. When it came time to vote the NATO signatories decided not to include those nations fearing a military response by Russia. Largely because Putin had given every indication he saw an expanded NATO as a threat to Russia's security.

NATO Says ‘No’ to Georgia and Ukraine … For Now​

NATO Says 'No' to Georgia and Ukraine ... For Now

It’s official – NATO will not offer Georgia and Ukraine Membership Action Plans (MAPs), Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said after a two-day summit of NATO foreign ministers in Brussels. By maintaining its policy from April of eventual but not immediate membership for Georgia and...

www.atlanticcouncil.org

What happened after the vote? It got a military response anyway when Russia invaded Georgia. It was the first time since the end of WWII that a European nation had been invaded by another. What was the West's reaction?

Lonely Night in Georgia​

The Bush administration’s feckless response to the Russian invasion.​

The Bush administration's feckless response to the Russian invasion of Georgia.

It is impossible to think about the Russian assault on Georgia without feeling like a heartless bastard or a romantic fool. Should we just let...

slate.com

Bush Slams Russia's Invasion Of Georgia​

Russian tanks roared deep into Georgia on Monday, launching a new western front in the conflict, and Russian planes staged air raids that sent people screaming and fleeing for cover in some towns.

The escalating warfare brought sharp words from President Bush, who pressed Moscow to accept an immediate cease-fire and pull its troops out to avert a "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence in the former Soviet republic.

Touring battle damage on Monday, Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili said he heard a Russian jet and feared he might be its target, reports CBS News correspondent Richard Roth. Bodyguards bundled him away. His people don't have that protection.

"We are basically seeing the cold-blooded, preplanned, premeditated murder of a small country," said Saakashvili.

There's a moral duty for the world to respond to the invasion Georgia, he said. But, as Roth reports, diplomacy is the only weapon the West is using.

Bush Slams Russia's Invasion Of Georgia

"Dramatic And Brutal Escalation" Condemned As Russian Troops Push Out Of Breakaway Regions, Into Western-Allied Neighbor

www.cbsnews.com

The West told Putin he was a naughty boy after the incursion in to Georgia but did little else.

AI Overview

Yes, Western countries largely continued to purchase Russian oil and gas after the 2008 invasion of Georgia. Despite the crisis causing a diplomatic rupture between Russia and the West, European countries remained dependent on Russian energy supplies and feared severe economic consequences if energy flows were disrupted.

A nuclear armed Russia with a dangerously reckless leader kept NATO from voting in Ukraine and Georgia and it kept the alliance from responding militarily as well when Putin moved in to Georgia. A lesson Putin took to mean he could do as he pleased when it came to parts of the former USSR. And he was right........until Biden coordinated a response by the US and NATO allies after the Ukraine invasion.

So, who was at fault for Russia invading a part of Georgia and maintaining control of 20% of it to this day? Putin.......PUTIN is at fault. Just as Putin is at fault for invading Crimea and Ukraine despite finger pointing to the contrary. Something to think about the next time Repubs try to lay blame at the feet of Obama and Biden for Putin's actions.

You can go fight Putin yourself.

https://www.ildu.com.ua/

 

[Seymour Flops]

IOW, when the Right blames Obama and Biden for Putin's aggression its criticism is ignorant of history and intellectually dishonest. I sincerely appreciate you helping to make my point.

That was a weird pivot to avoid addressing my points.

What should the U.S. have done when Russia invaded Georgia?

 

[berg80]

Of course Putin is responsible for the invasions. Only through perceived weakness of America (and well placed Russian sources) does Putin take the open shot.

Repeating the POT talking point on the matter doesn't make it so. BTW, why single out the US when the security of European nations was more at risk? Answer; because it serves the purposes of Repubs to put the blame on Obama and Biden for what Putin did. Nobody remembers Bush's ineffectual response to the invasion of Georgia. But then again beyond sanctions what could he do?

 

[berg80]

Russia was planning to invade Georgia no matter what.

He had made plans to invade Georgia previously. That doesn't mean his calculus would not have changed if NATO admitted it.

 

[berg80]

That was a weird pivot to avoid addressing my points.

What should the U.S. have done when Russia invaded Georgia?

Points? You mean your litany of hypothetical scenarios?

Exactly. Bush's hands were largely tied as was Obama's after the invasion of Crimea.

 

[Seymour Flops]

He had made plans to invade Georgia previously. That doesn't mean his calculus would not have changed if NATO admitted it.

Maybe.

But is that "maybe" worth dragging the U.S. into a WWIII that would have almost certainly gone nuclear?

Same question applies to the current situation in Ukraine. Global Thermonuclear War because un-elected President Zelensky does not want to compromise in the slightest?

Nah.

Again: What should the U.S. have done when Russia invaded Georgia? You are critical of Bush's response, but what would yours have been if you were in the WH?

 

[struth]

Points? You mean your litany of hypothetical scenarios?

Exactly. Bush's hands were largely tied as was Obama's after the invasion of Crimea.

Well the issue is before hand, Obama didn’t have to be more flexible with Putin

 

[shockedcanadian]

Repeating the POT talking point on the matter doesn't make it so. BTW, why single out the US when the security of European nations was more at risk? Answer; because it serves the purposes of Repubs to put the blame on Obama and Biden for what Putin did. Nobody remembers Bush's ineffectual response to the invasion of Georgia. But then again beyond sanctions what could he do?

Every president makes errors, often multiple errors. The mistakes increased after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the West, lead by the U.S; became lazy and too comfortable. Instead of celebrating the collapse of communism we propped up an even BIGGER, less known and more resourceful communism.

Before 9/11 the focus was on China. It shifted for years after that attack.

The terrorists in their own way won, weakening the West. It is going to require a collective lift from all nations and leadership is so weak, so ideologically purchased that this is going to be very difficult. China is pulling every string possible with great success.

 

[berg80]

But is that "maybe" worth dragging the U.S. into a WWIII that would have almost certainly gone nuclear?

That is exactly what Putin would have had to face. The prospect of all the NATO countries coming to Georgia's defense.

 

[Seymour Flops]

That is exactly what Putin would have had to face. The prospect of all the NATO countries coming to Georgia's defense.

These interlocking you-protect-me-and-I'll-protect-you treaties are exactly what led to WWII and WWI.