Anyone Else think that the Gaza pullout is a big mistake?

[rcajun90]

First let me say I'm not Jewish, I don't have any Jewish friends (not that I'm a racists just there's not many here in South Louisiana) and I support even before 9/11 a two state solution. It's not the fact that Israel is giving up land again it is the attitude of the Palestinians. The ones I've seen interviewed are suggesting this is a start but it will not be complete until they own all of Israel. You can see on Fox news that the terrorist group Islamic Jihad is marching to Gaza in a parade of triumph. Apparently terrorism works?

I'm old enough to remember how Israel gave Egypt back the Sinai and how this was going to bring peace to the Middle East. Well it didn't bring peace. It seems to me that the Arabs have only one goal in mind. A Palestinian state in what is now Israel. How can they have peace? They have thousands of these terrorist militias and they have a vested interest in keeping the blood flowing. If you are in your late 20's or 30's and you don't have a good education and you've dedicated your youth to terror, what do you do if peace does come? Work at McDonald's?

 

[Annie]

First let me say I'm not Jewish, I don't have any Jewish friends (not that I'm a racists just there's not many here in South Louisiana) and I support even before 9/11 a two state solution. It's not the fact that Israel is giving up land again it is the attitude of the Palestinians. The ones I've seen interviewed are suggesting this is a start but it will not be complete until they own all of Israel. You can see on Fox news that the terrorist group Islamic Jihad is marching to Gaza in a parade of triumph. Apparently terrorism works?

I'm old enough to remember how Israel gave Egypt back the Sinai and how this was going to bring peace to the Middle East. Well it didn't bring peace. It seems to me that the Arabs have only one goal in mind. A Palestinian state in what is now Israel. How can they have peace? They have thousands of these terrorist militias and they have a vested interest in keeping the blood flowing. If you are in your late 20's or 30's and you don't have a good education and you've dedicated your youth to terror, what do you do if peace does come? Work at McDonald's?

I agree, you are right, it's NOT Israel that is against a 2 state solution. Everyone forgets that is at the point that Arafat rejected the *Peace Plan* that got him the Nobel Peace Prize, along with Gee Wilikers Jimmy.

 

[dilloduck]

First let me say I'm not Jewish, I don't have any Jewish friends (not that I'm a racists just there's not many here in South Louisiana) and I support even before 9/11 a two state solution. It's not the fact that Israel is giving up land again it is the attitude of the Palestinians. The ones I've seen interviewed are suggesting this is a start but it will not be complete until they own all of Israel. You can see on Fox news that the terrorist group Islamic Jihad is marching to Gaza in a parade of triumph. Apparently terrorism works?

I'm old enough to remember how Israel gave Egypt back the Sinai and how this was going to bring peace to the Middle East. Well it didn't bring peace. It seems to me that the Arabs have only one goal in mind. A Palestinian state in what is now Israel. How can they have peace? They have thousands of these terrorist militias and they have a vested interest in keeping the blood flowing. If you are in your late 20's or 30's and you don't have a good education and you've dedicated your youth to terror, what do you do if peace does come? Work at McDonald's?

I disagree. Israel chose to abandon it's settlements for a number of reasons one of which was the fact that providing security for less than 10,000 people was incredibly expensive and a stategic nightmare. Arab propaganda is just that and if they would like to further test thier ability to be sucessful in "triumphing" over Israel they will not even live to regret it .
An argument can now be made that Israel has made a unilateral step for peace and the ball is now is the Palestinians court. Any attack on Israel now (however "minor") will be met with ferocious retaliatory strike because the Army and the general population are PISSED.

 

[Hobbit]

I think it's a bad move for free enterprise. Imagine if you lived in Phoenix, AZ. You and your parents turned that smoldering desert into a livable place, then started growing stuff that was envied around the world. Then, all of a sudden, the U.S. decides to comprimise. You have a week to get out. The gov't pays you a 100 grand for your troubles. They then take the land that your blood sweat and tears bought and gives it, free of charge, to a Mexican who has (not stereotyping, just referring to this specific Mexican) done nothing with his life but whine and moan and threaten to blow you up for being on HIS land. I think it's a sham and it's tragic. Also, get this. The lunar Jewish date was the 9th of Av. Do you know what also happened on the 9th of Av in history?

The 1st Jewish temple was destroyed by the Babylonians.
The 2nd Jewish temple was destroyed by the Romans.
Thousands of Jews were slaughtered by Crusaders and Muslim Jihadists...twice.
All Jews were banned from England by Edward I.
All Jews were banned from Spain by Isabella.
50,000 Jews were slaughtered after the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising failed.

And of all days, Sharon chose THAT day for the pullout. Anybody else see this as evidence of a God? Anybody else think this is leading to rivers of blood?

 

[rcajun90]

"I think it's a bad move for free enterprise. Imagine if you lived in Phoenix, AZ. You and your parents turned that smoldering desert into a livable place, then started growing stuff that was envied around the world. Then, all of a sudden, the U.S. decides to comprimise. You have a week to get out. The gov't pays you a 100 grand for your troubles. They then take the land that your blood sweat and tears bought and gives it, free of charge, to a Mexican who has (not stereotyping, just referring to this specific Mexican) done nothing with his life but whine and moan and threaten to blow you up for being on HIS land. I think it's a sham and it's tragic. Also, get this. The lunar Jewish date was the 9th of Av. Do you know what also happened on the 9th of Av in history?"

That's a very good analogy. After Arizonia why not New Mexico, Texas, California etc...

 

[rcajun90]

I disagree. Israel chose to abandon it's settlements for a number of reasons one of which was the fact that providing security for less than 10,000 people was incredibly expensive and a stategic nightmare. Arab propaganda is just that and if they would like to further test thier ability to be sucessful in "triumphing" over Israel they will not even live to regret it .
An argument can now be made that Israel has made a unilateral step for peace and the ball is now is the Palestinians court. Any attack on Israel now (however "minor") will be met with ferocious retaliatory strike because the Army and the general population are PISSED.

I hope you are correct. But if I was Abdul Jihad Mohammad, I would be thinking today is a great victory. A few more car and suicide bombings and we will drive all of the Jews out.

 

[dilloduck]

"I think it's a bad move for free enterprise. Imagine if you lived in Phoenix, AZ. You and your parents turned that smoldering desert into a livable place, then started growing stuff that was envied around the world. Then, all of a sudden, the U.S. decides to comprimise. You have a week to get out. The gov't pays you a 100 grand for your troubles. They then take the land that your blood sweat and tears bought and gives it, free of charge, to a Mexican who has (not stereotyping, just referring to this specific Mexican) done nothing with his life but whine and moan and threaten to blow you up for being on HIS land. I think it's a sham and it's tragic. Also, get this. The lunar Jewish date was the 9th of Av. Do you know what also happened on the 9th of Av in history?"

That's a very good analogy. After Arizonia why not New Mexico, Texas, California etc...

Free enterprise? What the hell does that have to do with it? The settlers were PAID to move into Gaza and are being PAID to move out of it. This was all possible because Israels army wiped out all attackers and had the power and money to defend the land. The United States STILL has the power and money to defend the states you are referring to WITHOUT recieving billions of dollars in foreign aid. If the Government by some act of fantasy votes to give those states to Mexico--guess what--those States can and will defend themselves.

 

[rcajun90]

"Free enterprise? What the hell does that have to do with it? The settlers were PAID to move into Gaza and are being PAID to move out of it. This was all possible because Israels army wiped out all attackers and had the power and money to defend the land. The United States STILL has the power and money to defend the states you are referring to WITHOUT recieving billions of dollars in foreign aid. If the Government by some act of fantasy votes to give those states to Mexico--guess what--those States can and will defend themselves."

I said nothing about Free enerprise. I think you gave me credit for someone elses post. I think what that person was saying was that Israel took what was a wasteland desert and has turned it into a profitable and livable area to live in. Similar to the way we have turned the vast wastelands of New Mexico, Arizona and Nevada into livable profitable places. Just look at Nevada. I have had several Mexican friends and have even gone down to Monterrey to stay for months and most of the people I talked to down there would eventually get to how we stole their land away from them ( Southwest United States ). It was obvious to me that they are being taught in schools that the American southwest should be part of Mexico and they are teaching a one sided lesson in history. I’m sure they leave out how we marched into Mexico City and could have had the whole country. I don’t think we have to worry about Mexican suicide bombers or terrorists. They are much more clever than that. Why attack when you can just immigrate? When I was a kid you never ever saw U.S. border patrol cars or Mexican laborers in Louisiana. Now they are all over the place. Can we really afford to protect and defend our borders?

 

[dmp]

I said nothing about Free enerprise. I think you gave me credit for someone elses post.

That's why it's better to use the 'quote' feature instead of just using 'quotation marks' when replying - it's easier to see which content belongs to which member

 

[dilloduck]

"Free enterprise? What the hell does that have to do with it? The settlers were PAID to move into Gaza and are being PAID to move out of it. This was all possible because Israels army wiped out all attackers and had the power and money to defend the land. The United States STILL has the power and money to defend the states you are referring to WITHOUT recieving billions of dollars in foreign aid. If the Government by some act of fantasy votes to give those states to Mexico--guess what--those States can and will defend themselves."

I said nothing about Free enerprise. I think you gave me credit for someone elses post. I think what that person was saying was that Israel took what was a wasteland desert and has turned it into a profitable and livable area to live in. Similar to the way we have turned the vast wastelands of New Mexico, Arizona and Nevada into livable profitable places. Just look at Nevada. I have had several Mexican friends and have even gone down to Monterrey to stay for months and most of the people I talked to down there would eventually get to how we stole their land away from them ( Southwest United States ). It was obvious to me that they are being taught in schools that the American southwest should be part of Mexico and they are teaching a one sided lesson in history. I’m sure they leave out how we marched into Mexico City and could have had the whole country. I don’t think we have to worry about Mexican suicide bombers or terrorists. They are much more clever than that. Why attack when you can just immigrate? When I was a kid you never ever saw U.S. border patrol cars or Mexican laborers in Louisiana. Now they are all over the place. Can we really afford to protect and defend our borders?

One of the better reasons I can think of for civilians to own and maintain weapons. The backlash is growing.

 

[Zhukov]

The question to be put to the Palestinians now is:

Would you rather have peace, or the destruction of the state of Israel?

I don't honestly expect it to happen (because the Palestinian people are fed a steady diet of lies) but perhaps this unilateral withdrawal will encourage more Palestinians to prefer peace.

What is more likely is terrorism will continue in order to get the Jews to leave the West Bank, and then Jerusalem, the Jews will retaliate, and tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, more people will be killed.

But I don't think that makes it a 'big mistake'.

What it did do was put the ball decisively in the Palestinians' court, and events will begin moving faster. Now we can only wait and see what they do with it.



And I belive they waited till after the 9th Av mourning period before they began the evacuation.

 

[Bonnie]

The question to be put to the Palestinians now is:

Would you rather have peace, or the destruction of the state of Israel?

I don't honestly expect it to happen (because the Palestinian people are fed a steady diet of lies) but perhaps this unilateral withdrawal will encourage more Palestinians to prefer peace.

What is more likely is terrorism will continue in order to get the Jews to leave the West Bank, and then Jerusalem, the Jews will retaliate, and tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, more people will be killed.

But I don't think that makes it a 'big mistake'.

What it did do was put the ball decisively in the Palestinians' court, and events will begin moving faster. Now we can only wait and see what they do with it.



And I belive they waited till after the 9th Av mourning period before they began the evacuation.

I don't think it was a big mistake either, but I do question it's effectiveness in actually being a catalyst for peace as the Palestinian leaders are terrorists in every sense of the word and will take this as sign of capitulation on Sharon's part. I have already heard the spin coming from the Middle East that this pull out is too little too late and simply a shallow and cunning act by Israel to dupe the Muslim's into thinking Sharon really wants peace. Like you said I think it won't be long till Israeli's are asked to leave the West Bank etc. After-all that is the objective and we all know it!

 

[alien21010]

I don't think it was a big mistake either, but I do question it's effectiveness in actually being a catalyst for peace as the Palestinian leaders are terrorists in every sense of the word and will take this as sign of capitulation on Sharon's part. I have already heard the spin coming from the Middle East that this pull out is too little too late and simply a shallow and cunning act by Israel to dupe the Muslim's into thinking Sharon really wants peace. Like you said I think it won't be long till Israeli's are asked to leave the West Bank etc. After-all that is the objective and we all know it!

Well... Is it too much for them to move out, if it guarantees that peace will exist? That's a question only the Israelis can answer.

I agree with what most has been said here. In fact, I think that this pull out is a step in the right direction... However for it to be a solid step, the Palestinian Authority needs to pull its head out of its ass, and actually step in. Re arm the Palestinians, so that they can actually deal with their own citizens. The Palestinian authority needs to come out and publicly denounce terrorism as an effective tool, and reinforce the notion that the Israelis are doing this on good will. (Will any of this happen though? Nope.)

I fear though, that when the attacks resume... That Israel's retaliation will be without bounds. The Palestinians must really reconsider their actions in the next year or so... Piss em off enough, and it could set off a full scale occupation.

 

[nakedemperor]

Anybody else see this as evidence of a God? Anybody else think this is leading to rivers of blood?

I felt the same way about the Red Sox winning the World Series. If God didn't have a hand in that, I don't know WHAT to say!

 

[Bonnie]

Israeli withdrawal is correct and necessary
Charles Krauthammer
August 19, 2005

WASHINGTON -- The Israeli abandonment of Gaza is a withdrawal of despair. Unlike the Oslo concessions of 1993, there is not even the pretense of getting anything in return from the Palestinians. Nonetheless, unilateralism is both correct and necessary. Israel has no peace partner -- Mahmoud Abbas has nothing to offer and has offered nothing -- and in the absence of a partner, there is only one logical policy: rationalize your defensive lines and prepare for a long wait.

Gaza was simply a bridge too far: settlements too far-flung and small to justify the huge psychological and material cost of defending them. Pulling out of Gaza leaves behind the first truly independent Palestinian state -- uncontrolled and highly militant -- but one from which Israel is fenced off.

If Israel can complete its West Bank fence, it will have established a stable equilibrium and essentially abolished terrorism as a regular and reliable means of attack -- i.e., as a usable strategic weapon. That will leave the Palestinians a stark choice: remain in their state of miserable militancy with no prospects of victory, or finally accept the Jewish state and make a deal.

That is Israel's strategy. There are two problems with it: What about the rockets? What about the world?

The first problem is that while the fences do prevent terrorist infiltration, they do nothing about rockets. For months, Palestinians have been firing rockets from Gaza into towns within Israel proper. The attacks are momentarily in suspension, but with the enhanced ability to smuggle in weapons from Egypt and with no Israeli patrols looking for them, the attacks will resume and get far worse.

What to do? Something Israel should have done long ago: active and relentless deterrence. Israel should announce that henceforth, any rocket launched from Palestinian territory will immediately trigger a mechanically automatic response in which five Israeli rockets will be fired back. There will be no human intervention in the loop. Every Palestinian rocket landing in Israel will instantly trigger sensors and preset counter-launchers. Any Palestinian terrorist firing up a rocket will know that he is triggering six: one Palestinian and five Israeli.

Israel would decide how these five would be preprogrammed to respond. Perhaps three aimed at the launch site and vicinity, and two at a list of predetermined military and strategic assets of the Palestinian militias.

This new policy would echo, though in far more benign form, America's Cold War deterrence policy of ``massive retaliation." That was all somewhat theoretical, but the Soviets apparently thought otherwise when they backed down during the Cuban missile crisis. In Gaza, the issue is not theoretical. Once Israel leaves, there is no way to dismantle the rockets. Deterrence is all there is. After but a few Israeli demonstrations of ``non-massive retaliation,'' the Palestinians themselves will shut down their terrorist rocketeers.

The second problem is world reaction to the Gaza withdrawal. Far from Israel getting any credit for this deeply wrenching action, the demand now is for yet more concessions -- from Israel. The New York Times called the Gaza withdrawal ``only the beginning'' and declared sonorously that Ariel Sharon ``must also be forewarned'' that giving up the West Bank must be next.

This is a counsel of folly. The idea that if only Israel made more concessions and more withdrawals, the Palestinians will be enticed into making peace is flatly contradicted by history.

We are not talking ancient history here; we are talking the last 12 years. Under Oslo, Israel made massive, near-suicidal concessions: bringing the PLO back to life, installing Yasser Arafat in power in the West Bank and Gaza, permitting him to arm militia after militia, and ultimately offering him (at Camp David 2000) the first Palestinian state in history, with a shared Jerusalem and total Israeli withdrawal from 95 percent of the formerly occupied territories (with Israel giving up some of its own territory to make the Palestinians whole).

How were these concessions met? With a savage terror war that killed 1,000 Israelis and maimed thousands more.

The Gaza withdrawal is not the beginning but the end. Apart from perhaps some evacuations of outlying settlements on the West Bank, it is the end of the concession road for Israel. And it is the beginning of the new era of self-sufficiency and separation in which Israel ensures its security not by concessions, but by fortification, barrier creation, realism and patient waiting.

Waiting for the first-ever genuine Palestinian concessions. Waiting for the Palestinians to honor the promises -- to recognize Israel and renounce terrorism -- they solemnly made at Oslo and brazenly betrayed. That's the next step. Without it, nothing happens.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/charleskrauthammer/printck20050819.shtml

 

[manu1959]

i would just like to say that pulling out of Gaza early just will not work....the rhythm method is just to risky.......

 

[ThomasPaine]

I think it's a bad move for free enterprise. Imagine if you lived in Phoenix, AZ. You and your parents turned that smoldering desert into a livable place, then started growing stuff that was envied around the world. Then, all of a sudden, the U.S. decides to comprimise. You have a week to get out. The gov't pays you a 100 grand for your troubles. They then take the land that your blood sweat and tears bought and gives it, free of charge, to a Mexican who has (not stereotyping, just referring to this specific Mexican) done nothing with his life but whine and moan and threaten to blow you up for being on HIS land. I think it's a sham and it's tragic. Also, get this. The lunar Jewish date was the 9th of Av. Do you know what also happened on the 9th of Av in history?

The 1st Jewish temple was destroyed by the Babylonians.
The 2nd Jewish temple was destroyed by the Romans.
Thousands of Jews were slaughtered by Crusaders and Muslim Jihadists...twice.
All Jews were banned from England by Edward I.
All Jews were banned from Spain by Isabella.
50,000 Jews were slaughtered after the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising failed.

And of all days, Sharon chose THAT day for the pullout. Anybody else see this as evidence of a God? Anybody else think this is leading to rivers of blood?

But I already believe in the Lord, and that all things demonstrate his presense.

 

[manu1959]

But I already believe in the Lord, and that all things demonstrate his presense.

i beleive the lord is a woman.....it would explaine a lot of things

 

[ThomasPaine]

i beleive the lord is a woman.....it would explaine a lot of things

.

 

[José]

Israeli withdrawal is correct and necessary
Charles Krauthammer
August 19, 2005

And it is the beginning of the new era of self-sufficiency and separation in which Israel ensures its security not by concessions, but by fortification, barrier creation, realism and <B>PATIENT WAITING</B>.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/...k20050819.shtml

Everybody with at least two functional neurons know that european jews, Israel&#8217;s founders, are just another modern european people and that Israel, conceived as a safe haven for jews is nothing but a pathetic joke.

But just for the sake of discussion, let&#8217;s assume all those germans and eastern Europeans, like Krauthammer himself, are indeed descendants of the ancient semitic people who inhabited that part of the world almost 2000 years ago.

If these european &#8220;jews&#8221; have the right to return to their ancestral land after an exile of almost 2000 years, logic tells us that palestinian arabs, victims of a far more recent injustice (48, 67) still have more than 1900 years before their right of return expires.

I have some bad news for you, Charlie.

Seems like the pseudo jews in Palestine still have a lot of patient waiting to do.