Any republican believers?

[whitehall]

I saw an interesting educational program titled "drain the Great Lakes". It relates how a scant 20,000 years ago, which is literally a drop in the bucket in geological terms, there was a gigantic glacier a mile thick covering the Northern Hemisphere and 5,000 years ago the climate was so arid that the level of the Great Lakes was lower than it is now. The point is that there are forces in nature that make the Industrial Age look like child's play. Modern humans live in a relatively stable time in geological history and radical lefties still ain't happy.

 

[flacaltenn]

Off track? The topic is: Any republican believers? (in regards to global warming)

You right wing worshipers of the opulent polluters on this planet not only don't believe global warming, you don't even believe pollution is a threat.

You have ZERO comprehension of cost externalization, regulatory capture or the corruption that goes on in your beloved private sector. Scum bags like Don 'Coal Baron' Blankenship who should be arrested for the murder (yes murder) of miners.

In 100 percent of the situations, good environmental policy is identical to good economic policy. Especially if we measure our economy based upon its jobs and the dignity of jobs over the generations, over the long term and on how it preserves the value of the assets of our communities.

Coal has been around for 100 years, and for that same 100 years, the poorest counties in America are in coal country. Can any of you free marketeers figure it out?

But you right wing turds who preach 'individual responsibility' fall all over yourselves to clean up after and defend your beloved opulent polluters on this planet. They are all big boys now, they should PAY to clean up THEIR mess. But they have mommies like you to clean up after them.

Hey nice rant.. What does POLLUTION have to do with Global Warming?

As a dedicated environmentalist -- I RESENT pulling attention and resources from REAL pollution issues. And as a science/engineering practioner -- I'm APPALLED at lumping CO2 in with stuff that WILL hurt you and make you sick..

Coal does not raise local economies like oil does, because it's so plentiful and easy to extract. Kentucky / West Va produces some of the HIGHEST QUALITY coal in the world.. That's why they are still in business at US labor prices. YOU and your Dear Leader are gonna soon put them out of work (for their own good) anyway... So WTF do you care??

Can you name one industry that emits only CO2?

No one is being 'put out of work'. Your desperation reveals that you are not an environmentalist.

West Virginia has some of the poorest counties in America. All in the belly of 'some of the HIGHEST QUALITY coal in the world'... Why is that?

You folks on the right have no understanding of how an economy must work for STAKEholders...We, the People. You only understand the way capitalism works for the benefit of shareholders.

If we want to treat the planet as if were a business in liquidation, to convert our natural resource to cash as quickly as possible, to have a few years of pollution-based prosperity, then we can generate an instantaneous cash flow and the illusion of a prosperous economy. But our children are going to pay for our joyride. They're going to pay for it with muted landscapes, poor health, and huge cleanup costs that are going to amplify over time, and that they will never, ever be able to pay off. Environmental injury is deficit spending. It's a way of loading the cost of our generation's prosperity onto the backs of our children.

The free market is the most efficient and democratic way to distribute the goods of the land, and that the best thing that could happen to the environment is if we had true free-market capitalism in this country, because the free market promotes efficiency, and efficiency means the elimination of waste, and pollution of course is waste. The free market also would encourage us to properly value our natural resources, and it's the undervaluation of those resources that causes us to use them wastefully. But in a true free-market economy, you can't make yourself rich without making your neighbors rich and without enriching your community.

But what polluters do is they make themselves rich by making everybody else poor. They raise standards of living for themselves by lowering the quality of life for everybody else, and they do that by evading the discipline of the free market. You show me a polluter; I'll show you a subsidy. I'll show you a fat cat using political clout to escape the discipline of the free market and to force the public to pay his production costs. That's what all pollution is. It's always a subsidy. It's always a guy trying to cheat the free market.

Nice irrelevent rant again.. This thread is about Global Warming. I'd be glad to have a go at REAL POLLUTION and externalities and costs and how well the markets handle all that in another thread. For now -- all you're doing here is trying to EXPAND the obfuscation of Anthropogenic GW with pollution. A scientific non-starter. Unless of course you want to cite all the societal externalities of butter and declare THAT a pollutant as well with your tortured govt version of policy masquerading as science.

 

[Oddball]

Nice irrelevent rant again.. This thread is about Global Warming. I'd be glad to have a go at REAL POLLUTION and externalities and costs and how well the markets handle all that in another thread. For now -- all you're doing here is trying to EXPAND the obfuscation of Anthropogenic GW with pollution. A scientific non-starter. Unless of course you want to cite all the societal externalities of butter and declare THAT a pollutant as well with your tortured govt version of policy masquerading as science.

That's his stock in trade, dude.

Meanwhile, he habitually ignores the exteranlities of the authoritarian do-goodery of politicians and bureaucrats.

 

[flacaltenn]

Nice irrelevent rant again.. This thread is about Global Warming. I'd be glad to have a go at REAL POLLUTION and externalities and costs and how well the markets handle all that in another thread. For now -- all you're doing here is trying to EXPAND the obfuscation of Anthropogenic GW with pollution. A scientific non-starter. Unless of course you want to cite all the societal externalities of butter and declare THAT a pollutant as well with your tortured govt version of policy masquerading as science.

That's his stock in trade, dude.

Meanwhile, he habitually ignores the exteranlities of the authoritarian do-goodery of politicians and bureaucrats.

Ahhh -- You mean like the do-goodery of ending the economic exploitation of all those coal miners by putting them out of work? Permanently..

Well I'll be darned. He's such a caring fellow after all...

 

[Oddball]

Lest we fail to mention union coal miners.

 

[flacaltenn]

Lest we fail to mention union coal miners.

Must be why a convicted felon got 43% of Obama's vote in the West Virginia primary..

It's all becoming clear now...

 

[daphillenium]

BullCrap...

""......promote education about coal in the public schools and SUPPORT RESIDENTS DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY employed by coal"""

""" Conduct research and development for the industry?""

"" Maintain the roads and access"" that OBAMA bragged about being providing as an EXPECTED contribution to the effort?

Have they added the ANIMAL CONTROL budget to this fudged analysis?

YA THINK MAYBE the people who constructed this mathematical WEAPON WANTED to prove that Govt spends more than it's worth? YA THINK???

Take this nebulous agiprop and shove it back into the mine captain.. And maybe ponder it's veracity BEFORE you post???

BTW --- I've not seen any poster in USMB that can lead a thread FARTHER OFF TRACK -- and QUICKER than you can... There's a pattern here that indicates you want to discuss stuff you think will WIN points for your causes, rather than what the topic really is...

Off track? The topic is: Any republican believers? (in regards to global warming)

You right wing worshipers of the opulent polluters on this planet not only don't believe global warming, you don't even believe pollution is a threat.

You have ZERO comprehension of cost externalization, regulatory capture or the corruption that goes on in your beloved private sector. Scum bags like Don 'Coal Baron' Blankenship who should be arrested for the murder (yes murder) of miners.

In 100 percent of the situations, good environmental policy is identical to good economic policy. Especially if we measure our economy based upon its jobs and the dignity of jobs over the generations, over the long term and on how it preserves the value of the assets of our communities.

Coal has been around for 100 years, and for that same 100 years, the poorest counties in America are in coal country. Can any of you free marketeers figure it out?

But you right wing turds who preach 'individual responsibility' fall all over yourselves to clean up after and defend your beloved opulent polluters on this planet. They are all big boys now, they should PAY to clean up THEIR mess. But they have mommies like you to clean up after them.

Hey nice rant.. What does POLLUTION have to do with Global Warming?

As a dedicated environmentalist -- I RESENT pulling attention and resources from REAL pollution issues. And as a science/engineering practioner -- I'm APPALLED at lumping CO2 in with stuff that WILL hurt you and make you sick.. Like I said -- all your gloomy pictures and rhetoric dont fit correctly here. Since the CO2 in your lungs is 100 times the concentration that it is in the air you breathe..

What you're doing lumping CO2 in with pollution is EXACTLY the dishonesty and deflection you accuse me of.. CO2 THEORY of Global Warming is a THEORY... And CO2 is NOT a pollutant. ((and I'm not even gonna fall for your next gambit -- but go ahead -- quote the EPA and the courts.. That's STILL NOT SCIENCE on your side -- that's just tyranny of power...

Coal does not raise local economies like oil does, because it's so plentiful and easy to extract. Kentucky / West Va produces some of the HIGHEST QUALITY coal in the world.. That's why they are still in business at US labor prices. YOU and your Dear Leader are gonna soon put them out of work (for their own good) anyway... So WTF do you care??

Coal is one of the dirtiest fossil fuels. Those who extrack it in the W. Virginia regions are at major risk for health problems. It spews out Mercury near power plants. I agree with you C02 isn't a pollutant. But I don't think we should be burning coal the way we are.

Coal Kills More Than It Helps, Study Says | Rodale News
http://occmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/54/5/283.full.pdf
Coal-Mercury Fact Sheet

 

[mamooth]

They just don't stop. That is, the denialists and their bizarre logic-free political rants.

We get it, denialists. You're a political cult. You don't need to keep proving it.

 

[Bfgrn]

Off track? The topic is: Any republican believers? (in regards to global warming)

You right wing worshipers of the opulent polluters on this planet not only don't believe global warming, you don't even believe pollution is a threat.

You have ZERO comprehension of cost externalization, regulatory capture or the corruption that goes on in your beloved private sector. Scum bags like Don 'Coal Baron' Blankenship who should be arrested for the murder (yes murder) of miners.

In 100 percent of the situations, good environmental policy is identical to good economic policy. Especially if we measure our economy based upon its jobs and the dignity of jobs over the generations, over the long term and on how it preserves the value of the assets of our communities.

Coal has been around for 100 years, and for that same 100 years, the poorest counties in America are in coal country. Can any of you free marketeers figure it out?

But you right wing turds who preach 'individual responsibility' fall all over yourselves to clean up after and defend your beloved opulent polluters on this planet. They are all big boys now, they should PAY to clean up THEIR mess. But they have mommies like you to clean up after them.

Hey nice rant.. What does POLLUTION have to do with Global Warming?

As a dedicated environmentalist -- I RESENT pulling attention and resources from REAL pollution issues. And as a science/engineering practioner -- I'm APPALLED at lumping CO2 in with stuff that WILL hurt you and make you sick.. Like I said -- all your gloomy pictures and rhetoric dont fit correctly here. Since the CO2 in your lungs is 100 times the concentration that it is in the air you breathe..

What you're doing lumping CO2 in with pollution is EXACTLY the dishonesty and deflection you accuse me of.. CO2 THEORY of Global Warming is a THEORY... And CO2 is NOT a pollutant. ((and I'm not even gonna fall for your next gambit -- but go ahead -- quote the EPA and the courts.. That's STILL NOT SCIENCE on your side -- that's just tyranny of power...

Coal does not raise local economies like oil does, because it's so plentiful and easy to extract. Kentucky / West Va produces some of the HIGHEST QUALITY coal in the world.. That's why they are still in business at US labor prices. YOU and your Dear Leader are gonna soon put them out of work (for their own good) anyway... So WTF do you care??

Coal is one of the dirtiest fossil fuels. Those who extrack it in the W. Virginia regions are at major risk for health problems. It spews out Mercury near power plants. I agree with you C02 isn't a pollutant. But I don't think we should be burning coal the way we are.

Coal Kills More Than It Helps, Study Says | Rodale News
http://occmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/54/5/283.full.pdf
Coal-Mercury Fact Sheet

CO2 as an element is not a pollutant. But CO2 concentration in the earths atmosphere is critical to the earths ability to shed heat. It is called the “greenhouse effect”

Causes of Climate Change

Here is a great illustration using water in a bathtub...

 

[flacaltenn]

Off track? The topic is: Any republican believers? (in regards to global warming)

You right wing worshipers of the opulent polluters on this planet not only don't believe global warming, you don't even believe pollution is a threat.

You have ZERO comprehension of cost externalization, regulatory capture or the corruption that goes on in your beloved private sector. Scum bags like Don 'Coal Baron' Blankenship who should be arrested for the murder (yes murder) of miners.

In 100 percent of the situations, good environmental policy is identical to good economic policy. Especially if we measure our economy based upon its jobs and the dignity of jobs over the generations, over the long term and on how it preserves the value of the assets of our communities.

Coal has been around for 100 years, and for that same 100 years, the poorest counties in America are in coal country. Can any of you free marketeers figure it out?

But you right wing turds who preach 'individual responsibility' fall all over yourselves to clean up after and defend your beloved opulent polluters on this planet. They are all big boys now, they should PAY to clean up THEIR mess. But they have mommies like you to clean up after them.

Hey nice rant.. What does POLLUTION have to do with Global Warming?

As a dedicated environmentalist -- I RESENT pulling attention and resources from REAL pollution issues. And as a science/engineering practioner -- I'm APPALLED at lumping CO2 in with stuff that WILL hurt you and make you sick.. Like I said -- all your gloomy pictures and rhetoric dont fit correctly here. Since the CO2 in your lungs is 100 times the concentration that it is in the air you breathe..

What you're doing lumping CO2 in with pollution is EXACTLY the dishonesty and deflection you accuse me of.. CO2 THEORY of Global Warming is a THEORY... And CO2 is NOT a pollutant. ((and I'm not even gonna fall for your next gambit -- but go ahead -- quote the EPA and the courts.. That's STILL NOT SCIENCE on your side -- that's just tyranny of power...

Coal does not raise local economies like oil does, because it's so plentiful and easy to extract. Kentucky / West Va produces some of the HIGHEST QUALITY coal in the world.. That's why they are still in business at US labor prices. YOU and your Dear Leader are gonna soon put them out of work (for their own good) anyway... So WTF do you care??

Coal is one of the dirtiest fossil fuels. Those who extrack it in the W. Virginia regions are at major risk for health problems. It spews out Mercury near power plants. I agree with you C02 isn't a pollutant. But I don't think we should be burning coal the way we are.

Coal Kills More Than It Helps, Study Says | Rodale News
http://occmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/54/5/283.full.pdf
Coal-Mercury Fact Sheet

What you say is true.. To a point.. And that is --- WHY does the list of green clean Alternatives contain Biomass Conversion? Which is by definition -- a coal plant burning wood waste, weeds or even garbage.... THAT -- is an AWFUL idea too isn't it?

How can you burn those things cleanly? But not coal?

I happen to believe that you can combust coal cleanly, but we have such a LARGE installed base and the EPA will not allow step-wise maintenance and upgrades to these plants without kicking in all kinds of "deferred mandatory" upgrades.. So they sit and smoke.

Used to be that coal plants threw TONS of radioactive fly ash up into the air. Spreading radioactive waste 10000 times more than a nuclear plant. They still ARE a source of radioactive waste. I'm not a particular fan.. Would rather have nuclear anyday...

Nuclear SOLVES the CO2 problem (if indeed it's an issue) anyway.. And that is what the topic is about. BTW ==+ You never answered my question of whether youre more afraid of effects of AGWarming or nuclear...

 

[mamooth]

WHY does the list of green clean Alternatives contain Biomass Conversion? Which is by definition -- a coal plant burning wood waste, weeds or even garbage.... THAT -- is an AWFUL idea too isn't it?

I cut down a tree. I can let it lie or bury it, meaning it rots and turns into CO2. Or I can burn it for heat, and thus burn less natural gas. Either way, that tree becomes CO2. The point is whether I do something useful with it, and if I plant another tree. Same with biomass.

 

[Old Rocks]

Global warning exists.

The CAUSE of it is attributed to humankind by the AGW Faithers.

The CAUSE of it is attributed to a variety of mostly OTHER factors by those who place value on actual honest science.

AGW Faithers are generally either ignorant or dishonest.

Care to expound on those other factors, or link to scientific papers that explain those other factors? Preferably from peer reviewed scientific journals.

 

[flacaltenn]

WHY does the list of green clean Alternatives contain Biomass Conversion? Which is by definition -- a coal plant burning wood waste, weeds or even garbage.... THAT -- is an AWFUL idea too isn't it?

I cut down a tree. I can let it lie or bury it, meaning it rots and turns into CO2. Or I can burn it for heat, and thus burn less natural gas. Either way, that tree becomes CO2. The point is whether I do something useful with it, and if I plant another tree. Same with biomass.

The fallacy of zero carbon fuels is that there usually is a perfectly good carbon sink IN PLACE on the land you start cultivating for fuel. You first false move is cutting that tree FOR FUEL. Because it's no longer part of a viable sink.. Same if you take cropland with adequate carbon sink already on it and start growing switchgrass on that plot.. You've done NOTHING to change the carbon sink but inhabit it's effectiveness by periodic harvesting.

The only way you actually can claim a carbon credit -- is if you cultivate BARREN land or plow under some asphalt. Otherwise, that land is already sinking (marginally more) than if you harvest fuel from it. You've ADDED carbon into the atmos by forcing that land to grow fuel instead of food crop or forest.

And BTW --- burning TREES to produce electricity IS an awful idea. So is burning garbage which is NOW APPROVED by YOUR EPA as qualified "renewable alternative" energy.. Good luck with that. Britain is up in ARMS about the bait and switch. And all the greenies over there now know how it feels to be useful idiots so that industry could profit by building "green" incinerators in their neighborhoods. Go on -- be a USEFUL idiot and defend it some more..