Another baby killing operation exposed in Texas

[koshergrl]

"Proponents of the first school of thought define an embryo simply as follows:

• ‘The developing human during its early stages of development. The embryonic period extends to the end of the eighth week (56 days), by which time the beginnings of all major structures are present.’ (Moore and Persaud, 2003);

"

******* idiots.​

http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/file/research/embryos/reports/humanembryo.pdf​

" This broad definition of human embryo (ie the human entity developing from fertilisation until the fetal stage).."​

"The overall objective of this paper is to describe a human embryo from a biological standpoint..."​

Please, morons...find a scientific paper that tells us that embryos aren't HUMAN.​

​

(My bold)

All v. interesting. What do the courts say about the legal rights of the fetus? Because that's where this is/has been/will be settled. If all the doctors & biologists & so on are agreed on when human life begins, they need to get to the courts & testfy to the fact.

But bear in mind that the courts tend to take their own counsel first & foremost - they may not be much impressed by outside expertise. & if you take the same hectoring tone with them as you do here, you'll likely be cited for contempt of court.

If you need allies to make your case to the courts, I think you're going about it the wrong way. But please yourself - I'm not convinced of the justice of your cause.​

We aren't talking about the legal definition of human, though I daresay it's the same as the scientific one. I have yet to hear any courts challenging the scientific definition of "Human" but if you have, feel free to provide it.

This particular discussion is about the choicers' insistence that "science" dictates that babies aren't HUMAN from conception.

I admit, this is a particularly less intelligent group than the ones who I usually debate this issue with...DC. Coyote and tpoke are fairly clueless and appear not to even realize what a poor showing they are making, even compared to the poor showing we are usually subjected to by the allegedly *enlightened* choicers. But..that is the discussion. The courts do not dictate science, and right now, we're discussing what is *human* from a *scientific* perspective only.
​

 

[hoosier88]

"Proponents of the first school of thought define an embryo simply as follows:

• ‘The developing human during its early stages of development. The embryonic period extends to the end of the eighth week (56 days), by which time the beginnings of all major structures are present.’ (Moore and Persaud, 2003);

"

******* idiots.

http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/file/research/embryos/reports/humanembryo.pdf

" This broad definition of human embryo (ie the human entity developing from fertilisation until the fetal stage).."

"The overall objective of this paper is to describe a human embryo from a biological standpoint..."

Please, morons...find a scientific paper that tells us that embryos aren't HUMAN.​

​

(My bold)

All v. interesting. What do the courts say about the legal rights of the fetus? Because that's where this is/has been/will be settled. If all the doctors & biologists & so on are agreed on when human life begins, they need to get to the courts & testfy to the fact.

But bear in mind that the courts tend to take their own counsel first & foremost - they may not be much impressed by outside expertise. & if you take the same hectoring tone with them as you do here, you'll likely be cited for contempt of court.

If you need allies to make your case to the courts, I think you're going about it the wrong way. But please yourself - I'm not convinced of the justice of your cause.​

We aren't talking about the legal definition of human, though I daresay it's the same as the scientific one. I have yet to hear any courts challenging the scientific definition of "Human" but if you have, feel free to provide it.

This particular discussion is about the choicers' insistence that "science" dictates that babies aren't HUMAN from conception.

I admit, this is a particularly less intelligent group than the ones who I usually debate this issue with...DC. Coyote and tpoke are fairly clueless and appear not to even realize what a poor showing they are making, even compared to the poor showing we are usually subjected to by the allegedly *enlightened* choicers. But..that is the discussion. The courts do not dictate science, and right now, we're discussing what is *human* from a *scientific* perspective only.
​

(My bold)

Nah, you miss the point. The doctors & biologists & other scientists may argue 'til the cows come home - the courts will take it upon themselves to determine - with the Constitution & precedent & case law - what constitutes a human, & where fetal rights begin & the mothers' (& those of society @ large) end. For good or ill, most of these basic issues wind up in the courts - & that's where the legal issues will be determined. The courts may take the professionals' opinions under advisement - but they're not required to do so, particularly if those opinions are all over the map.

 

[Steelplate]

You know...I'm pro-choice...But damn...this late term/partial birth crap should be outlawed unless the mother's life is in danger.

I think that just like anything...abortion should be well regulated. Personally, I'm a plan B/first trimester only person. 8-12 weeks(depending on when they figure out they are pregnant...missed period)...should be plenty of time to make a decision....also...with the availability of Plan B, it should be a no brainer.

 

[Coyote]

You know...I'm pro-choice...But damn...this late term/partial birth crap should be outlawed unless the mother's life is in danger.

I think that just like anything...abortion should be well regulated. Personally, I'm a plan B/first trimester only person. 8-12 weeks(depending on when they figure out they are pregnant...missed period)...should be plenty of time to make a decision....also...with the availability of Plan B, it should be a no brainer.

Partial birth abortion is a poorly defined procedure and should not be outlawed.

Late term abortion is strictly regulated in all states I believe, as it should be.

I don't think I would say just first trimester though - I would include 2nd. There are some states, such as MS where there is only one clinic to serve the entire state. Plenty of time may not be plenty of time.

 

[Coyote]

An acorn is complete without becoming a tree and a tree is complete. Acorn....Oak tree? Only a woman can stop abortions. It is she that seek to destroy her unborn child and it is her that should be held accountable. It would be a crime to seek and have an abortion.

Why? What is so special about a zygote?

 

[Coyote]

So in Texas you can't get an appointment for an abortion for nine months and it forces the killing of babies in the ninth month, are you really trying to claim that?

Are you really so obtuse or are you trying to deliberately misrepresent things?

The article in the OP stated:

According to Rodriguez, as long as patients had the cash, Karpen would perform an abortion well past 24 weeks. A late-term procedure cost between $4,000 and $5,000 at the clinic, they said in the video which was filmed as the clinic was still operating and released on Wednesday.​

That sounds like an illegal late term abortion doesn't it? We're not talking about legal late term abortions done when the mother's life or health are at risk - we're talking about abortions where for some reason or another the pregnancy was too far along for it to be done legally.

If abortion is legal, regulated and easily available to women in need, then people like this can't stay in business as easily. The fill in where they see a need - desperate women, few alternatives, many barriers. They also try to circumvent neccessary laws restricting late term abortions. They need to be shut down and prosecuted and at the same time abortion needs to continue to be safe and legal or we'll just see more of these operations.

Not seeing how you think laws are forcing these late term abortions.

I believe Texas, despite the laws, still have many early options for abortion. I can't see how desperate women, have few alternatives, or barriers, that force them to late term abortions.

Maybe you could elaborate. They've passed laws that have defunded many clinics and offered little in return. Many clinics have been forced to close.

Speaking as a woman - I think I can honestly say very few women would CHOOSE a late term abortion if they could have had it earlier.

 

[Katzndogz]

I imagine the Texas dhs will see some heads roll, just like the PA dhs did, as it becomes obvious that there were complaints that were never investigated, or were investigated, and shelved.

(My bold)

Well, this is TX we're talking about. Have you seen any heads roll from the tremendous fire/explosion @ the West, TX fertilizer plant recently? No, & you're not likely to. TX touts itself on being a bidness-friendly environment - boy howdy! So long as sufficient baksheesh is paid, I'm sure no one is ever going to find those pesky forms that shouda been filled in & routed to Dept. Homeland Security, which would have notified the local first responders, who would've known to let the thing burn down & keep a safe distance. & evacuate the schools, home for the aged, apartments, etc. within blast range. Instead ...

Likewise, if the good doctor was making reglar contributions to the goberador &/or hissen party, I'm sure it's all good.

A paramedic was arrested in the explosion case. He was found with several pipe bombs and a little bomb making factory. He wanted to be a hero.

 

[koshergrl]

Are you really so obtuse or are you trying to deliberately misrepresent things?

The article in the OP stated:

According to Rodriguez, as long as patients had the cash, Karpen would perform an abortion well past 24 weeks. A late-term procedure cost between $4,000 and $5,000 at the clinic, they said in the video which was filmed as the clinic was still operating and released on Wednesday.
​

That sounds like an illegal late term abortion doesn't it? We're not talking about legal late term abortions done when the mother's life or health are at risk - we're talking about abortions where for some reason or another the pregnancy was too far along for it to be done legally.

If abortion is legal, regulated and easily available to women in need, then people like this can't stay in business as easily. The fill in where they see a need - desperate women, few alternatives, many barriers. They also try to circumvent neccessary laws restricting late term abortions. They need to be shut down and prosecuted and at the same time abortion needs to continue to be safe and legal or we'll just see more of these operations.

Not seeing how you think laws are forcing these late term abortions.

I believe Texas, despite the laws, still have many early options for abortion. I can't see how desperate women, have few alternatives, or barriers, that force them to late term abortions.

Maybe you could elaborate. They've passed laws that have defunded many clinics and offered little in return. Many clinics have been forced to close.

Speaking as a woman - I think I can honestly say very few women would CHOOSE a late term abortion if they could have had it earlier.

Any woman can get an early abortion.

Most late terms are women who change their mind at the last moment, or they''re being forced into it, or they don't know how far along they are.

 

[Coyote]

Not seeing how you think laws are forcing these late term abortions.

I believe Texas, despite the laws, still have many early options for abortion. I can't see how desperate women, have few alternatives, or barriers, that force them to late term abortions.

Maybe you could elaborate. They've passed laws that have defunded many clinics and offered little in return. Many clinics have been forced to close.

Speaking as a woman - I think I can honestly say very few women would CHOOSE a late term abortion if they could have had it earlier.

You're full of shit. Any woman can get an early abortion.

You think?

So you live in MS. One - ONE clinic for the entire state.

Easy right?

Most late terms are women who change their mind at the last moment, or they''re being forced into it, or they don't know how far along they are.

Can you support that statement or is it your "opinion"? (I can buy not knowing how far along they are, but the others...not so much)

 

[koshergrl]

So are there lots of Mississippian women getting chopped up by your late term abortionist heroes?

No?

So much for that theory.

 

[koshergrl]

Does it take 9 months to get to the border?

No?

There goes that theory again.

 

[Coyote]

Does it take 9 months to get to the border?

No?

There goes that theory again.

Got a car? Time off from work?

Ah...the luxury of an armchair quaterback

 

[Coyote]

So are there lots of Mississippian women getting chopped up by your late term abortionist heroes?

No?

So much for that theory.

That's not what you said.

"You're full of shit. Any woman can get an early abortion. "

 

[koshergrl]

So....I'm confused. You maintain that late term abortions are taking place because women can't get early term abortions...

Then you say that they can't get early term abortions, so they aren't getting any at all?

Do you always argue polar opposites at the same time? This is the second time you've done it. You also maintain that a baby is "A Potential" until sometime after birth...at the same time maintaining that it's "human"....if it's human, then it's not "A Potential", it actually "is"....

You can't have it both ways.

Which is a fine point that I have found none of the choicers can come to grips with.

 

[koshergrl]

And yes, I did say BOTH of those things!

Amazing! And not at all contradictory of each other...so I can understand your confusion.

 

[Coyote]

So....I'm confused. You maintain that late term abortions are taking place because women can't get early term abortions...

No. I never think it's so simple as that.

Late term abortions take place for a variety of reasons. If they are legal - it is usually (depending on state law) due to the fact that the mother's health or life is in danger or to severe fetal abnormalities that may not have been detected earlier.

If they are illegal - it can be because the woman, for what ever reason - could not get it done earlier. Those reasons could have been denial of her condition on her part or changing her mind, or - her circumstances drastically changing (for example the father deciding he wanted no part in raising a child) or a minor too afraid to let her family know. It could also be, in states where there are substantial barriers to having an abortion combined with too few clinics a case where she couldn't get it done early enough.

Then you say that they can't get early term abortions, so they aren't getting any at all?

What?

Do you always argue polar opposites at the same time? This is the second time you've done it.

I don't know what you are talking about here.

You also maintain that a baby is "A Potential" until sometime after birth...at the same time maintaining that it's "human"....if it's human, then it's not "A Potential", it actually "is"....

Not until "sometime after birth" - until birth.

As to the rest, it's like the acorn and the oak tree. Nothing special about it until its potential is realized. There are dolphins and elephants worth more than a zygote.

You can't have it both ways.

Which is a fine point that I have found none of the choicers can come to grips with.

I've come to grips with it

 

[BlueGin]

Sure. Sure. Keep spinning.

So the evidence was presented, and you cut and ran, because it revealed you were spouting crap.

Are there any pro-lifers who aren't shameless liars? Only a few. Most of them will willingly tell any lie for the cause, since it's for the BabyJesus and all that, which makes all the lies justifiable The ends always justify the means for that crowd. Raging moral relativists, the whole bunch. If their cause was so just, you'd think they wouldn't have to lie all the time.

That's also why they hate the side of liberty so much. Our moral absolutism makes them look bad, and they know it. Truth burns a pro-lifer like sunlight burns a vampire, so they reflexively lash out at the source of their pain.

Joe's histerical rants are not "evidence"...just so you know...

Evidence is the stuff that convicted Kermitt Gosnell and 13 others of atrocities against babies and women.

I know you are easily confused by facts and stuff...hope your brain doesn't hurt.

 

[JoeB131]

Sure. Sure. Keep spinning.

So the evidence was presented, and you cut and ran, because it revealed you were spouting crap.

Are there any pro-lifers who aren't shameless liars? Only a few. Most of them will willingly tell any lie for the cause, since it's for the BabyJesus and all that, which makes all the lies justifiable The ends always justify the means for that crowd. Raging moral relativists, the whole bunch. If their cause was so just, you'd think they wouldn't have to lie all the time.

That's also why they hate the side of liberty so much. Our moral absolutism makes them look bad, and they know it. Truth burns a pro-lifer like sunlight burns a vampire, so they reflexively lash out at the source of their pain.

Joe's histerical rants are not "evidence"...just so you know...

Evidence is the stuff that convicted Kermitt Gosnell and 13 others of atrocities against babies and women.

I know you are easily confused by facts and stuff...hope your brain doesn't hurt.

If "evidence" was so convincing, why did they cut a deal with him to avoid the death penalty AFTER winning a conviction?

Do you think if he broke into a maternity ward and strangled three newborns, anyone would be for giving this guy a deal to avoid death row?

 

[Katzndogz]

Not seeing how you think laws are forcing these late term abortions.

I believe Texas, despite the laws, still have many early options for abortion. I can't see how desperate women, have few alternatives, or barriers, that force them to late term abortions.

Maybe you could elaborate. They've passed laws that have defunded many clinics and offered little in return. Many clinics have been forced to close.

Speaking as a woman - I think I can honestly say very few women would CHOOSE a late term abortion if they could have had it earlier.

Any woman can get an early abortion.

Most late terms are women who change their mind at the last moment, or they''re being forced into it, or they don't know how far along they are.

Most women who get a late term abortion are just really stupid and very lazy. They don't want to take the time or expend the effort. They have more important things to do. There are parties to go to, drugs to take, men to ****, and game shows to watch.

Some women who get a late term abortion think that they can manipulate the father into some kind of relationship and spend the time pretending the baby daddy really cares. By the time the man is able to impress upon these very foolish and stupid women that he is already impregnanting some other woman, they are very far along.

 

[koshergrl]

The truth is, we don't know. I think many are forced to get them. The literature I've read is mostly young girls, who hid pregnancies and then were forced to abort. But I think they are also forced by abusive partners as well.

And the legit industry facilitates, by keeping quiet about it and by referring people to them, and by refusing to keep stats that reflect the realities of the abortion industry...and REFUSING TO REPORT abuses when they're under obligation to do so.

It's rather fascinating that the same people who said we could make abortion more safe by making it legal and monitoring now claim that monitoring the abortion industry makes it less safe.