Anger at Israeli brutality grows

[CrusaderFrank]

Oh BS

Same damn thing Muzzy Trolls say here.

Have you turned

You condone the premeditated murder of children?

 

[Shusha]

But there's more to my use of the term,

Yes, I am fully aware of this. Let's dig in.

the meaning that you deny exists is simple, it is what has that political ideology, the various factions and forces over the past 100 years, what effects has it produced? Zionist Israel is a label that represents the nature of the political and societal system, the effects it has had on non-Jews, these effects are part of the "meaning" of the term Zionist Israel.

Nothing of substance in this paragraph. What is the "nature" of the political and societal system? What effects does it have on non-Jews? What are you reading into the term "Zionist" that is clearly intended, but not articulated? Can there be a non-Zionist Israel? How so? What differentiates "Zionist" national identity from "Jewish" national identity from "Death cult" national identity from "Palestinian" national identity, from a moral perspective, since that is what I think you mean.

 

[Churchill]

Yes, I am fully aware of this. Let's dig in.

Nothing of substance in this paragraph. What is the "nature" of the political and societal system? What effects does it have on non-Jews?

There are a plethora of sources for answer to this, for example UN reports, human rights organization reports, the same reports and organizations that are routinely mentioned when condemning Iran for example.

What are you reading into the term "Zionist" that is clearly intended, but not articulated?

Don't speculate over what you think I "intended" I said what I said, discuss that and not what you imagined, not what you wish I had said.

Can there be a non-Zionist Israel?

Of course, Jews live all over the world in non-Zionist societies and apparently enjoy their lives.

How so? What differentiates "Zionist" national identity from "Jewish" national identity from "Death cult" national identity from "Palestinian" national identity, from a moral perspective, since that is what I think you mean.

I don't care for concepts like "national identity" when they become elevated to the political level. It contains the seeds of national-ism and we have plenty of evidence about where nationalism can lead from Italy and Germany in the 1920s.

Zionsim in the 1920s was charaterized by nationalism, it was and is a nationalist movement, see the Britannica:

Zionism | Definition, History, Movement, & Ideology | Britannica

Zionism is a Jewish nationalist movement that originated in Europe in the 19th century with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine.

www.britannica.com

 

[eagle1462010]

I sound like the half of Israel who wants Bibi in prison for corruption, funding Hamas, endless wars and possibly facilitating Oct 7th

Then that half is just as dumb as you. Make no mistake Iran and its proxies want ALL OF ISRAEL DEAD.

They havent hid it in their charter.

They havent hid it in their words.

And they spend All their money for one purpose. Kill the Jews.

Hamas = Iran
Hezballag = Iran
Houthis = Iran

So **** em

 

[eagle1462010]

You condone the premeditated murder of children?

Again BS.

Wars people die.

Tell your Hamas buddies to stop firing from schools.

BTW

WWII we bombed cities to dust. That is TOTAL WAR. Iran doesnt want that

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Then that half is just as dumb as you. Make no mistake Iran and its proxies want ALL OF ISRAEL DEAD.

They havent hid it in their charter.

They havent hid it in their words.

And they spend All their money for one purpose. Kill the Jews.

Hamas = Iran
Hezballag = Iran
Houthis = Iran

So **** em

You sound like Bibi!

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Again BS.

Wars people die.

Tell your Hamas buddies to stop firing from schools.

BTW

WWII we bombed cities to dust. That is TOTAL WAR. Iran doesnt want that

Don’t shy away now!

 

[Churchill]

Okie dokie

Which Nations has Israel vowed to wipe off the face of the earth?

Israel and people in authority have routinely spoken genocidally of Palestinians, there was an uptick after Oct 7th, but lots of examples in the years before then, many years before 1948.

In addition Israel's actions speak louder than words, a regime that imprisons non-Jew kids, puts them on trial in secret, tortures routinely. A regime that demolishes non-Jew family homes when a family member is arrested. A regime that shoots unarmed non-Jews and protesters even American citizens.

A regime that encourages violent hordes of terrorist "settllers" to persecute and terrorize non-Jews in their own homes.

The list is long as is the timespan.

Imagine a young boy growing up under such repression, how can anyone be shocked that he might develop a hatred toward a country that acts this way toward him and his community?

You are too far gone to see any wrongdoing here except for wrongdoing by Arabs, in your mind no matter what Isarelis do to their non-Jew neighbors is OK, understandable, all due to antisemtism etc. People who speak as you do and claim to be Christians are not, you are delusional.

 

[Shusha]

Then call them false statement not an emotive term intended to suggest that claims are antisemtic.

Lol. "Libel" is a legal term. Notice I didn't, in this case, use the term "blood libel"? You think that wasn't deliberate? I also included an explanatory phrase.

1b. Many Israels believe Jews are in some way superior to Arabs.

Libel (false statement). Also a blood libel (false and antisemitic statement) because it stems from a deliberate misinterpretation of "chosen-ness" crafted by those with malice towards the Jewish people. (Not saying you are such a person, just saying the "justification" itself.) This also suffers from the not-parallel reflection of Islam's requirement for non-Muslims to submit to Islam, with reduced rights and status, physical distinction and deference.

2a. Zionism is predicated on Jews having a divine right to territory in Palestine.

Libel (false statement). While it is true that some Jews do believe that the land was bestowed by Gd upon the Jewish people as an everlasting covenant, this is not the predication for the State of Israel. This is apparent in the wording of the Mandate for Palestine: Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; (emphasis mine). And also in the wording of the Declaration of Independence: The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and national identity was formed. Here they achieved independence and created a culture of national and universal significance. Here they wrote and gave the Bible to the world. Exiled from Palestine, the Jewish people remained faithful to it in all the countries of their dispersion, never ceasing to pray and hope for their return and restoration of their national freedom. Impelled by this historic association, Jews strove throughout the centuries to go back to the land of their fathers and regain statehood. (emphasis mine).

3b. Zionists use a national tragedy to justify their policies - the Holocaust.

This depends on how one reads it. On the one hand, I think you mean, "Israelis use the tragedy of the Holocaust as a weapon to install discriminatory and malicious policies against others". On the other hand, it could mean, "The Jewish people have been collectively and generationally traumatized by the atrocity perpetrated against them from which they have not yet recovered and are committed to use the memory of this atrocity to prevent future ones, including creating protections and institutions for prevention.

4b. Zionists believe that Arabs are a dire threat to Jews, an enemy seeking to take over.

This one is mostly correct, though I'd replace "Zionists" with "Jews" and "Arabs" with "terrorist groups" and/or "Islamic extremists". Jews understand what "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab" and "globalize the intifada" mean.

I could go on, you get the picture, these are defensible claims and the similarity justifies my comparison I think.

But this really is disingenuous. You know, as well as I do, that the connotations associated with the term "Nazi" are not the four you chose to list above. The term suggests the epitome of evil: institutionalized extermination with all its inherent lack of humanity. You know, as well as I do, that the INTENT in labelling Jews as Nazis is to apply this stain to the Jewish people.

 

[Churchill]

Lol. "Libel" is a legal term. Notice I didn't, in this case, use the term "blood libel"? You think that wasn't deliberate? I also included an explanatory phrase.

Libel (false statement). Also a blood libel (false and antisemitic statement) because it stems from a deliberate misinterpretation of "chosen-ness" crafted by those with malice towards the Jewish people. (Not saying you are such a person, just saying the "justification" itself.) This also suffers from the not-parallel reflection of Islam's requirement for non-Muslims to submit to Islam, with reduced rights and status, physical distinction and deference.

Libel (false statement). While it is true that some Jews do believe that the land was bestowed by Gd upon the Jewish people as an everlasting covenant, this is not the predication for the State of Israel. This is apparent in the wording of the Mandate for Palestine: Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; (emphasis mine). And also in the wording of the Declaration of Independence: The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and national identity was formed. Here they achieved independence and created a culture of national and universal significance. Here they wrote and gave the Bible to the world. Exiled from Palestine, the Jewish people remained faithful to it in all the countries of their dispersion, never ceasing to pray and hope for their return and restoration of their national freedom. Impelled by this historic association, Jews strove throughout the centuries to go back to the land of their fathers and regain statehood. (emphasis mine).

This depends on how one reads it. On the one hand, I think you mean, "Israelis use the tragedy of the Holocaust as a weapon to install discriminatory and malicious policies against others". On the other hand, it could mean, "The Jewish people have been collectively and generationally traumatized by the atrocity perpetrated against them from which they have not yet recovered and are committed to use the memory of this atrocity to prevent future ones, including creating protections and institutions for prevention.

This one is mostly correct, though I'd replace "Zionists" with "Jews"

I will respond to just this one point, the rest of your post shows a refusal to admit the reality of what Israel is and does, no action by Israel will sway you, no matter how horrific - another trait in common with the Nazis.

You say replace "Zionists with Jews"? Why? there are Jews who abhor Zionism, such Jews are decent humanitarians who know what they see:

and "Arabs" with "terrorist groups" and/or "Islamic extremists". Jews understand what "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab" and "globalize the intifada" mean.

But this really is disingenuous. You know, as well as I do, that the connotations associated with the term "Nazi" are not the four you chose to list above. The term suggests the epitome of evil: institutionalized extermination with all its inherent lack of humanity. You know, as well as I do, that the INTENT in labelling Jews as Nazis is to apply this stain to the Jewish people.

Imagine what you want to, I don't care, I said what I said not what you wish I had said.

 

[Shusha]

But less dramatic is the impostion of sanctions as the enforcement of UN resolutions regarding the occupation. Israel could start with that but it will not nor will most Israelis support that either.

Well that may be but the UN is the authority that defines international law, that's a fact and we either defined and respect that effort or we ignore it and watch the world descend into self destruction.

I will say again that the UN is a corrupt and useless organization. We'd have to delve into which UN resolutions you are referring to. But I'd argue that Israel is unable to comply with resolutions having to do with the occupation, because there is no way to determine where Israel ends and the "occupation" begins. No treaty, no agreement, except Oslo (which Israel is complying with) and customary law (which Israel is complying with).

And I will say again that the UN is corrupting international law, specifically in how it deals with Israel.

 

[Shusha]

There are a plethora of sources for answer to this, for example UN reports, human rights organization reports, the same reports and organizations that are routinely mentioned when condemning Iran for example.

Don't speculate over what you think I "intended" I said what I said, discuss that and not what you imagined, not what you wish I had said.

Of course, Jews live all over the world in non-Zionist societies and apparently enjoy their lives.

I don't care for concepts like "national identity" when they become elevated to the political level. It contains the seeds of national-ism and we have plenty of evidence about where nationalism can lead from Italy and Germany in the 1920s.

Zionsim in the 1920s was charaterized by nationalism, it was and is a nationalist movement, see the Britannica:

View attachment 1249489

Zionism | Definition, History, Movement, & Ideology | Britannica

Zionism is a Jewish nationalist movement that originated in Europe in the 19th century with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine.

www.britannica.com

Empty, non-answer.

 

[Churchill]

I will say again that the UN is a corrupt and useless organization. We'd have to delve into which UN resolutions you are referring to. But I'd argue that Israel is unable to comply with resolutions having to do with the occupation, because there is no way to determine where Israel ends and the "occupation" begins. No treaty, no agreement, except Oslo (which Israel is complying with) and customary law (which Israel is complying with).

And I will say again that the UN is corrupting international law, specifically in how it deals with Israel.

The UN acts as the will of the member states, it reflects the views of the members all 193 of them. Israel is a rogue state, totally out of step with most human beings, it acts with impunity because it exerts control over the United States who always use the veto to protect Israel.

You can choose to view this as a worlwide antimitic attidtude that picks on poor Israel all the time or you can wake up and see the light.

 

[Shusha]

no action by Israel will sway you, no matter how horrific

Demonstrably untrue in my posts responding to those who actually made a specific and factual criticism against Israel. I have condemned many actions committed by individual Israelis and many policies of the Israeli government. To quote you, "Imagine what you want to. I said what I said not what you wish I had said".

You say replace "Zionists with Jews"? Why? there are Jews who abhor Zionism, such Jews are decent humanitarians who know what they see:

I said replace Zionists with Jews IN THIS SPECIFIC SENTENCE. Because it is not "Zionists" who are threatened, it is JEWS. No one checks for the Zionist membership card before setting a synagogue in Montreal on fire; or driving a truck full of explosives and shooting at preschool children in Michigan; or throwing an old woman off a balcony in France.

 

[Kruska]

I think we are now clear on my answer to your question. Back at ya. Do you support Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, and the PA, Iran, and Qatar being held to account and brought "to justice"?

You already answered it, via refusing to answer YES or NO, your diversion doesn't help you.

So its clear according to your very own action towards refusing to answer YES or NO - that YOU are in FULL support of a racial, repressive radical religious genocidal Zionist government and movement. Not that it comes as a surprise - but at least you are the first USMB member to CONFIRM it.

People that are in FULL support of a racial, repressive,radical, genocidal government (aka NAZI) are placed on ignore by me.

 

[Shusha]

The UN acts as the will of the member states, it reflects the views of the members all 193 of them. Israel is a rogue state, totally out of step with most human beings, it acts with impunity because it exerts control over the United States who always use the veto to protect Israel.

You can choose to view this as a worlwide antimitic attidtude that picks on poor Israel all the time or you can wake up and see the light.

Typical. Instead of engaging with my actual arguments, you just fall back to a generalized and emotive statement painting Israel as evil (rogue, inhuman). This is what I have been calling you out on since the beginning of our engagement in this particular thread.

Why don't you discuss one or some of the UN Resolutions you accuse Israel of non-compliance? Why don't you discuss the legal boundary where Israel ends and something else begins? Is it because you don't have the information to discuss that? Or is it that you have the information and know it will prove you wrong?

 

[Churchill]

Demonstrably untrue in my posts responding to those who actually made a specific and factual criticism against Israel. I have condemned many actions committed by individual Israelis and many policies of the Israeli government. To quote you, "Imagine what you want to. I said what I said not what you wish I had said".

I said replace Zionists with Jews IN THIS SPECIFIC SENTENCE. Because it is not "Zionists" who are threatened, it is JEWS.

Here is that sentence:

"Zionists believe that Arabs are a dire threat to Jews, an enemy seeking to take over".

There are many non-Zionist Jews who do not regard Arabs as a universal threat to Jews (because they aren't a universal threat to Jews). It is a Zionist canard, used to justify everything that the state does to non-Jews (Christians and Muslims).

No one checks for the Zionist membership card before setting a synagogue in Montreal on fire; or driving a truck full of explosives and shooting at preschool children in Michigan; or throwing an old woman off a balcony in France.

Most antisemitic attacks in the US (for example) are not carried out by Arabs or other victims of Israeli brutality. They are carried out by people who have never been impacted in any way by Israel and do not care about it, they just hate Jews, they are rabid antisemites.

Pittsburgh synagogue gunman who killed 11 people gets death penalty

Robert Bowers perpetrated the deadliest attack on Jews in US history after killing 11 people at Tree of Life synagogue in 2018

www.theguardian.com

 

[Shusha]

You already answered it, via refusing to answer YES or NO, your diversion doesn't help you.

So its clear according to your very own action towards refusing to answer YES or NO

Why do you lie on a message board where everyone can just go back and read what I actually wrote (post #371) and where I can re-post it? Are you intentionally trying to prove your insincerity and malice?

The response to your YES? or NO? is to be found immediately below your quoted question. "I fully support ..." is an unambiguous "yes".