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[ding]

Police as individuals can because there are laws in place. Laws established by government.

Are you serious right now? You did not just read that post and respond like this. I demand you remove the words "critical thinking" from your signature this instant!!!

Aw ****, he's not gonna do it...

Now I'm just captivated by the mystery of the situation - could it be reading comprehension? That doesn't seem likely, as this was pretty clear. Mental block due to lifelong indoctrination? Likely enough, but still...

Any chance you'd like to, ya know, address the undeniable impossibility of moral government or anything?

Maybe we should just play "I Spy"... I'll go first... I see something... unfathomably resistant to logic.

There are no such thing as "natural law rights". This is just more utopian mumbo jumbo.

Right, because all the universe is guided by law, with mankind’s behavior being the sole exception.

No chance you’d like to spend some time quietly considering that chart I posted, and seeing if it conforms with historical reality, and then making an informed... hello?

Aw ****, he fell asleep.

Wrong. There are moral laws which are standards of conduct and when man normalizes his deviance to those standards he will eventually suffer predictable surprises.

Only a moron would believe there are no consequences to failed behaviors. But that process is not a fast acting one, which is why we need laws and enforcement of laws which you oppose.

You know who makes an argument for no laws? Criminals.

That’s because criminals are morons. Law is what’s keeping them from getting shot most of the time.

I agree about the time lag between action and consequence being a huge roadblock to understanding moral law. But offering man’s law as a solution only creates another transgression with another deferred consequence. That consequence is loss of liberty, and ultimately chaos (relative to desirable order).

Non-US citizens being told they just can't waltz into the country without checking in first is loss of liberty?

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Funny how you see it that way when there is no enforcement.

But even funnier is how you openly admit to your subordination or religion

Religion is not a requisit to morals or liberty. It is often a roadblock.

And your religious collectivism is only NOT compulsory because you believe in the consequences of not participating. It is the fraud of religion.

 

[ding]

Funny how you see it that way when there is no enforcement.

But even funnier is how you openly admit to your subordination or religion

Religion is not a requisit to morals or liberty. It is often a roadblock.

And your religious collectivism is only NOT compulsory because you believe in the consequences of not participating. It is the fraud of religion.

Not according to the founding fathers of liberty and freedom. According to them liberty and freedom rests upon virtue and morality and virtue and morality rests on religion.

Your views are more closely aligned with the founding fathers of communism.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Non-US citizens being told they just can't waltz into the country without checking in first is loss of liberty?

Remove all government-pillaged redistributive benefits the illegals seek and the problem solves itself.

 

[ding]

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

Founders Online: From John Adams to Massachusetts Militia, 11 October 1798

 

[jillian]

Non-US citizens being told they just can't waltz into the country without checking in first is loss of liberty?

Remove all government-pillaged redistributive benefits the illegals seek and the problem solves itself.

and redistribute all the wealth to the top 1%?

 

[ding]

Non-US citizens being told they just can't waltz into the country without checking in first is loss of liberty?

Remove all government-pillaged redistributive benefits the illegals seek and the problem solves itself.

Your buddy Brian wants open borders. How about you?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

To an anarchist a conservative only looks like a statist.

Do you support the state imparing the obligation of a marital contract between two men or two women? I already know you support the state not imparing the obligations of a marital contract between a man and a woman, and a woman, and a woman.


May they all bow their heads and say "yes."

The state has no place being in the marriage business. Marriage is a religious institution, not a civil one

 

[ding]

Why Socialists Have Always Fought for Open Borders

 

[ding]

To an anarchist a conservative only looks like a statist.

Do you support the state imparing the obligation of a marital contract between two men or two women? I already know you support the state not imparing the obligations of a marital contract between a man and a woman, and a woman, and a woman.


May they all bow their heads and say "yes."

The state has no place being in the marriage business. Marriage is a religious institution, not a civil one

Correct.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Not according to the founding fathers of liberty and freedom. According to them liberty and freedom rests upon virtue and morality and virtue and morality rests on religion.

Cite some sources. Don't make blanket statements. I will bet you believe the founding fathers were Christians.

But, the founder of your religion was closely related to the founding fathers, in that he hijack the rites of their fraternal order.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

The state has no place being in the marriage business. Marriage is a relig

Marriage is a contractual obligation. Why has the state been imparing it for so long?

 

[ding]

Not according to the founding fathers of liberty and freedom. According to them liberty and freedom rests upon virtue and morality and virtue and morality rests on religion.

Cite some sources. Don't make blanket statements. I will bet you believe the founding fathers were Christians.

But, the founder of your religion was closely related to the founding fathers, in that he hijack the rites of their fraternal order.

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

Founders Online: From John Adams to Massachusetts Militia, 11 October 1798


George Washington
Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports...In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.

 

[ding]

Not according to the founding fathers of liberty and freedom. According to them liberty and freedom rests upon virtue and morality and virtue and morality rests on religion.

Cite some sources. Don't make blanket statements. I will bet you believe the founding fathers were Christians.

But, the founder of your religion was closely related to the founding fathers, in that he hijack the rites of their fraternal order.

Communism is naturalized humanism. Karl Marx

The propaganda of atheism is necessary for our programs. Vladimir Lenin

 

[ding]

The state has no place being in the marriage business. Marriage is a relig

Marriage is a contractual obligation. Why has the state been imparing it for so long?

You tell me, you're the anarchist.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Not according to the founding fathers of liberty and freedom. According to them liberty and freedom rests upon virtue and morality and virtue and morality rests on religion.

Cite some sources. Don't make blanket statements. I will bet you believe the founding fathers were Christians.

But, the founder of your religion was closely related to the founding fathers, in that he hijack the rites of their fraternal order.

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

Founders Online: From John Adams to Massachusetts Militia, 11 October 1798


George Washington
Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports...In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.

The last two words of his quote are a distiction from your premise.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Why do you say anarchy, as an anti-political position, implies no order, when everyone here has told you 1,000 times that voluntary organization, including heirarchy, is fine? This word is so overused, but it’s classic strawman.

The natural conclusion of anarchy is chaos. You are willing to shift authority from the government to something you will give a new name, but eventually anarchist will be back in the same place and they will want to take authority from that and the cycle will not end till there is nothing but chaos. This cannot be disputed.

As for employment, I merely described the situation. I said that the employee is not compensated for the full value of his work. This is the whole goal of hiring someone. The point of the example was to demonstrate a situation where you gain some benefit from a system that is not designed for your benefit, but specifically designed for your exploitation. Your ability to gain benefit is just a way of keeping you coming back so the exploiter can get HIS benefit. I’m not making a value judgement about this arrangement.

There is no exploitation, there is mutual benefit. I am getting exactly what I want as is my employer. How can that be exploitation? I am not being treated unfairly or unjustly.

Fair

was never mentioned, or implied.
Just is my concern, not fair.

Just or fair, now you are just playing semantic...

Just: guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness:

Government is a system that is not designed for your benefit. Gaining some benefit from it does not refute this. The difference between government and employment is that there is no expressed consent. That is why it is inherently immoral - because it is both exploitative and compulsory. To say government is a neutral tool is to ignore much of what’s been said to this point without having adequately refuted it.

There is expressed consent when you freely choose to live under a system of government. When you get a job you express your consent for them to take out taxes. There is a country right now that has the system you are looking for, and yet you will not move there. What does that say about you?

You believe natural law does not exist, so what is the source of your morality?

Morality is a man made construct, it is based upon the society we live in. There is no morality in nature.

If I kill you for my gain, we humans see that as immoral. If a lion kills a gazelle for its gain, is that immoral?

Is it immoral for a praying mantis to kill its mate during sex? Of course not, but if you did it to your mate, that would be immoral. Our morals come from the society we are a part of.

 

[ding]

Not according to the founding fathers of liberty and freedom. According to them liberty and freedom rests upon virtue and morality and virtue and morality rests on religion.

Cite some sources. Don't make blanket statements. I will bet you believe the founding fathers were Christians.

But, the founder of your religion was closely related to the founding fathers, in that he hijack the rites of their fraternal order.

John Adams, “Letter to Zabdiel Adams, Philadelphia, 21 June 1776”
“Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand.” John Adams Letter of June 21, 1776,

The Works of John Adams – Second President of theUnited States, ed. Charles Francis Adams (Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1854), 9:401.


Samuel Adams Letter to John Trumbull, October 16, 1778
“Religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness.”

Paul H. Smith, Gerard W. Gawalt, Rosemary Fry Plakes, et. al., Letters of Delegates to Congress, 1774-1789, volume 11, October 1 1778-January 31 1779.


Patrick Henry Letter to Archibald Blair, January 8, 1799
“The great pillars of all government and of social life [are] virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor…and this alone, that renders us invincible.”

Moses Coit Tyler, Patrick Henry (New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1898; reprint, Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1962), 409.

Benjamin Rush Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical, 1798
“The only foundation for...a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”

(Philadelphia: Thomas and Samuel F. Bradford, 1798), 8.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

The state has no place being in the marriage business. Marriage is a relig

Marriage is a contractual obligation. Why has the state been imparing it for so long?

No, marriage is a religious institution that the state co opted for their convenience.

 

[ding]

Not according to the founding fathers of liberty and freedom. According to them liberty and freedom rests upon virtue and morality and virtue and morality rests on religion.

Cite some sources. Don't make blanket statements. I will bet you believe the founding fathers were Christians.

But, the founder of your religion was closely related to the founding fathers, in that he hijack the rites of their fraternal order.

"A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could." Vladimir Lenin

Lenin: The Attitude of the Workers' Party to Religion