An Industry Reborn

[editec]

It only takes one fracking disaster to permanently destroy a local water supply.

When we can do this SAFELY we ought to.

Of course that safe fracking will no doubt cost more.

But there's no sense forever destroying the water supplies for millions of people just to extract a little gas.

We need to exploit these resources, but the emphases has got to be that we do it SAFELY.

 

[Old Rocks]

I suggest that we pass a law that before any drilling and fracking is done, that the well water from the area be tested extensively, all known aquifers. Then, if these aquifers are contaminated after drilling, the people doing the drilling be responsible for supplying clean water to all those affected until such times as the contamination is found to be gone.

This seems to be a fair answer to the statements made by both sides. If the aquifers are already contaminated, but suffer no further degradation, then the drillers, and the company that hires them are home free. If the water is pure and remains so, the same. But if there is significant degradation, then the drillers are held responsible for the degradation to all those affected, even if it is the whole of New York City.

Simple accountability.

 

[editec]

I suggest that we pass a law that before any drilling and fracking is done, that the well water from the area be tested extensively, all known aquifers. Then, if these aquifers are contaminated after drilling, the people doing the drilling be responsible for supplying clean water to all those affected until such times as the contamination is found to be gone.

This seems to be a fair answer to the statements made by both sides. If the aquifers are already contaminated, but suffer no further degradation, then the drillers, and the company that hires them are home free. If the water is pure and remains so, the same. But if there is significant degradation, then the drillers are held responsible for the degradation to all those affected, even if it is the whole of New York City.

Simple accountability.

AFter they destry the aquirers they CAN'T clean them up.

And therein is the problem that we need to solve.

We're trading a temporary benefit for a permanent disadvantage if we don't do this safely.

 

[Trajan]

The upset it appears is due to the use of say; kerosene, benzene, toluene, xylene, and formaldehyde in Hydraulic fracking.

I understand this, as I work with these chemicals on a daily basis and am well aware of their dangers. However, everything in measure, the purity and final ppm count is whats important.


so when you read these reports on Fracking etc. just be aware that when they say they found traces of toluene, read past that and look for the concentration(s), ppm and ppb , ingestion exposure in milligrams and grams etc.

yooooookay......


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRZ4LQSonXA&feature=player_detailpage]YouTube - Faucet Water Ignites! Natural Gas in Well Water! THANKS DICK![/ame]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZe1AeH0Qz8&feature=player_detailpage]YouTube - GASLAND Trailer 2010[/ame]

hows your knee?

 

[Samson]

I'm ALL for it.

When they can do it without screwing up the water.

Hydraulic fracturing hasn't screwed up the water any worse than farming does. Isn't near a problem. You don't see people advocating a cessation of farming because of what their runoff does, no reason to stop hydraulic fracturing for doing even less.

You're distracting the Parrots. (Jiggs, Sparky, Old Rocks)

Most Americans are to stupid to understand fracking (see this thread). The best they can do, is watch Gas Land and ignore the facts
Commission: Gas wells not causing flaming water http://www.9news.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=119472&catid=339

There are millions of jobs in fracking, a highly labor intensive activity: However these jobs won't be found in NYC, Chicago, LA, the NE, the NW, or any other Democratic Party Stronghold:

Democrats would much rather extend a $500/week unemployment check ($12.5/hr) to their consituants, than to see job creation at a $15/hr minimum rate among their non-constituants.

 

[Samson]

Why am I not surpirsed this has devolved into a discussion on hydraulic fracturing.

Good points folks, but I mean hey look - here's something this country is about to embark upon whereby we will actually be exporting a lot of something that has a lot of value. Exporting - selling natural gas overseas. Cold hard cash coming into the U.S.
It'll help the trade deficit, create jobs, boost manufacturing.

Forget the fracturing debate - there's plenty of threads for that already.
This shit is groundbreaking news.

Wouldn't that drive all the mom and pop fracking companies out of business ?

Interesting you ask: actually, both the "mom-and-pop" frackers as well as the biggies (e.g. Haliburton, Schlumberger, BJ/Baker) are unable to meet demand to such a degree that Operators (e.g XTO, Chesapeak) are starting their own fracking companies. Happily, the only way for them to staff their own companies will be to offer higher wages and benefits compared to Halliburton, et al.

 

[Mr. H.]

Absolutely. US as a natural gas exporting superpower, as we were once an oil superpower, is a good thing. Bring on the fracking and lets all get busy!

And there it is... finally... laid bare for all to see.

RGR's enthusiastic, cornucopian agenda. Shale gas. Why didn't you just admit this earlier, instead of hemming and hawing and dancing around all the shale gas questions I asked of you months ago.

Replete with the "fool with a camera on utube" canard. Great stuff. As if the numerous legit concerns brought up throughout Gasland can be brushed aside with another surface quip.

Even if gas-from-shale managed to offset existing conventional decline rates enough to pass seamlessly into this new paradigm (and it never will), you're advocating an entire industry that would need to be whipped into shape on a massive scale, requiring an enormous amount of capital. The infrastructure expansion alone being a logistical nightmare of epic proportion, for a country whose growth has slowed almost to a halt the past several years. I'll guess your infectious optimism insists it can all be done quickly, too, for a nation enjoying a W-shaped recession. (assuming it HAS an end). Subsidies to the rescue?

Tell us, when the double dip hits later this year as the post-Fukushima 2Qs start rolling in (July?), where will the investment come from to triple the hydraulic fracking industry right here in Star-Spangled America?

Meanwhile, thanks to Chindia (and neocon hubris), peak is here already. ... Slept too late, missed the alarm ... Why? Because the world listened to people like you for too long.

The same people who brought us WMDs, color-coded terror scales, "Operation Iraqi Liberation," and "we'll be greeted as Liberators!"

Jiggs, you're such a defeatist.
Well-versed, articulate, and literate.
But a perennial defeatist.

It only takes one fracking disaster to permanently destroy a local water supply.

When we can do this SAFELY we ought to.

Of course that safe fracking will no doubt cost more.

But there's no sense forever destroying the water supplies for millions of people just to extract a little gas.

We need to exploit these resources, but the emphases has got to be that we do it SAFELY.

And after 60 years of fracking, we're still looking for that water aquifer that's been permanently destroyed.

I suggest that we pass a law that before any drilling and fracking is done, that the well water from the area be tested extensively, all known aquifers. Then, if these aquifers are contaminated after drilling, the people doing the drilling be responsible for supplying clean water to all those affected until such times as the contamination is found to be gone.

This seems to be a fair answer to the statements made by both sides. If the aquifers are already contaminated, but suffer no further degradation, then the drillers, and the company that hires them are home free. If the water is pure and remains so, the same. But if there is significant degradation, then the drillers are held responsible for the degradation to all those affected, even if it is the whole of New York City.

Simple accountability.

Maybe not a bad idea. But in the initial assessment, you'll be hard-pressed to find a water well that does not contain nitrates or phosphates or choliforms put there by agriculture.

 

[RGR]

And there it is... finally... laid bare for all to see.

RGR's enthusiastic, cornucopian agenda. Shale gas. Why didn't you just admit this earlier, instead of hemming and hawing and dancing around all the shale gas questions I asked of you months ago.

Why don't you fire off a neuron in a useful direction? Here is what happens to Hubberts peak of natural gas in the early 1970's, and certainly, shale gas is only the most recent component. Hey! What happened to peak natural gas in the early 70's! Gee! Peak nonsense doesn't work for natural gas either!

Even if gas-from-shale managed to offset existing conventional decline rates enough to pass seamlessly into this new paradigm (and it never will), you're advocating an entire industry that would need to be whipped into shape on a massive scale, requiring an enormous amount of capital.

Look at that graph Jiggsy. Its already happened on a massive scale, the capital has been spent, Hubberts decline completely reversed, and now it's time to ask the question, Hey! Lets export some!

Tell us, when the double dip hits later this year as the post-Fukushima 2Qs start rolling in (July?), where will the investment come from to triple the hydraulic fracking industry right here in Star-Spangled America?

Any true peaker would never admit that there had been a RECOVERY, thereby allowing another recession in the door. You are slipping Jiggsy, straying from Dogma. Better be careful, the instant you start thinking for yourself the most likely outcome is you will realize what a pig in a poke you've been trying to sell to your betters.

 

[Samson]

Jiggs, you're such a defeatist.
Well-versed, articulate, and literate.
But a perennial defeatist.

When you've been singing the same "Peak Oil" tune for the past 60 years, don't expect a drastic change.

And you give him way too much credit: his is an academic POV he's regurgitated to impressionable college freshman all his career.

He wouldn't know a pump truck from a sand truck from a coiled tubing truck if his life depended on it.

 

[Mr. H.]

Why haven't I seen any data on "Peak Ethanol"?

 

[RGR]

It only takes one fracking disaster to permanently destroy a local water supply.

So what? And you are wrong anyway. Frac fluid volumes are limited, and just don't have the size to permanently destroy anything.

Where do people get this stuff?

When we can do this SAFELY we ought to.

Safety in any human endeavor is an illusion. You are using electricity to make this post? Odds are, the creation of that electricity isn't safe, why the hell would you require it for fracking wells when you don't require for everything else?

But there's no sense forever destroying the water supplies for millions of people just to extract a little gas.

It isn't a "little" gas, it is enough to completely reverse production decline in one of the worlds largest producers of natural gas, and it doesn't forever destroy anything.

A new slogan! Stop the fracking propaganda! More science...less hysteria!

 

[chikenwing]

Absolutely. US as a natural gas exporting superpower, as we were once an oil superpower, is a good thing. Bring on the fracking and lets all get busy!

And there it is... finally... laid bare for all to see.

RGR's enthusiastic, cornucopian agenda. Shale gas. Why didn't you just admit this earlier, instead of hemming and hawing and dancing around all the shale gas questions I asked of you months ago.

Replete with the "fool with a camera on utube" canard. Great stuff. As if the numerous legit concerns brought up throughout Gasland can be brushed aside with another surface quip.

Even if gas-from-shale managed to offset existing conventional decline rates enough to pass seamlessly into this new paradigm (and it never will), you're advocating an entire industry that would need to be whipped into shape on a massive scale, requiring an enormous amount of capital. The infrastructure expansion alone being a logistical nightmare of epic proportion, for a country whose growth has slowed almost to a halt the past several years. I'll guess your infectious optimism insists it can all be done quickly, too, for a nation enjoying a W-shaped recession. (assuming it HAS an end). Subsidies to the rescue?

Tell us, when the double dip hits later this year as the post-Fukushima 2Qs start rolling in (July?), where will the investment come from to triple the hydraulic fracking industry right here in Star-Spangled America?

Meanwhile, thanks to Chindia (and neocon hubris), peak is here already. ... Slept too late, missed the alarm ... Why? Because the world listened to people like you for too long.

The same people who brought us WMDs, color-coded terror scales, "Operation Iraqi Liberation," and "we'll be greeted as Liberators!"

What???? totaly clueless

Gas drilling and fraking is going will go on and has provided many well paying jobs,enriched land owners and will supply the whiners and blubbers clean energy for sometime to come.

My company is just starting to expand into Pa supporting drilling companys its a very good thing.

Trucking,gravel,restaurants,excavation company's,start up of all kinds,all the self absorbed
no nothings will get their gas their electricity,their food processed even as they cry and blubber about something they no little.

you appose this,you should lose your access to natural gas,and it touches you in more ways than you know.you don't need a gas meter at your house.

 

[chikenwing]

Why am I not surpirsed this has devolved into a discussion on hydraulic fracturing.

Good points folks, but I mean hey look - here's something this country is about to embark upon whereby we will actually be exporting a lot of something that has a lot of value. Exporting - selling natural gas overseas. Cold hard cash coming into the U.S.
It'll help the trade deficit, create jobs, boost manufacturing.

Forget the fracturing debate - there's plenty of threads for that already.
This shit is groundbreaking news.

Fracking is the linch pin without it the resource go back to the stone age.

 

[Mr. H.]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch (ie. OP):

Here's a brief assessment of LNG opportunities. Kind of thin, but there are additional links in the article -

LNG Exports is a Potential Business Opportunity For U.S. Natural Gas Industry

 

[Samson]

Why am I not surpirsed this has devolved into a discussion on hydraulic fracturing.

Good points folks, but I mean hey look - here's something this country is about to embark upon whereby we will actually be exporting a lot of something that has a lot of value. Exporting - selling natural gas overseas. Cold hard cash coming into the U.S.
It'll help the trade deficit, create jobs, boost manufacturing.

Forget the fracturing debate - there's plenty of threads for that already.
This shit is groundbreaking news.

Fracking is the linch pin without it the resource go back to the stone age.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch (ie. OP):

Here's a brief assessment of LNG opportunities. Kind of thin, but there are additional links in the article -

Fracking and Excess Natural Gas supply cannot be seperated.

Its like saying Corn prices have nothing to do with Farming.

 

[chikenwing]

Jiggs, you're such a defeatist.
Well-versed, articulate, and literate.
But a perennial defeatist.

When you've been singing the same "Peak Oil" tune for the past 60 years, don't expect a drastic change.

And you give him way too much credit: his is an academic POV he's regurgitated to impressionable college freshman all his career.

He wouldn't know a pump truck from a sand truck from a coiled tubing truck if his life depended on it.

Lets put this in simple terms,peak my ass!!

upon further exploration they have discover more gas then originally thought 150-200 years worth at projected consumption rates,then here's the reall cherry on top,there is just as much oil there also,this being the Marcellus basin.

Take a drive threw northern Pa. I do several times a week,its happening whether you like it or not,and the folks that live there support it.

 

[chikenwing]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch (ie. OP):

Here's a brief assessment of LNG opportunities. Kind of thin, but there are additional links in the article -

LNG Exports is a Potential Business Opportunity For U.S. Natural Gas Industry

We work on the trade deficit by NOT IMPORTING energy at present rates,fix that then sell what we don't need,but we should not look at nature gas as a big exporting resource until we develop it for US first.

 

[Foxfyre]

It is unfortunate that we have a segment of society that seems to be defeatiist, anti-industrial, anti-risk. Ironically such people often describe themselves as 'progressives'.

Again we cannot have life without risk. Government cannot protect us from all the hazards of living our lives, and when it tries inappropriately to do so it generally creates more problems than it solves not the least of which is confiscation of our freedoms, choices, options, opportunities, vision, imagination, and initiative.

If we had these people around, nobody ever would have dared to hook up a horse to a wheeled vehicle. Or attempt to use a horse for riding for that matter. No ship would ever have dared sail out of the sight of land. Maybe nobody would have attempted to build a structure that floats and can carry people and cargo. We would have no railroad system, no automobiles, no airplanes, no public utilities, no space program, and only a fraction of the medical science that is saving lives and making them better.

Humankind has advanced itself by taking risk. And it has improved ithe quality of life for billions by learning from and correcting mistakes. Few things worth doing in the world have been accomplished without some mishaps along the way.

 

[Intense]

I'm ALL for it.

When they can do it without screwing up the water.

Total Agreement.

 

[Samson]

I'm ALL for it.

When they can do it without screwing up the water.

Total Agreement.

They've been doing it for the past 45 years without screwing up the water: The Flaming Water Faucet on "Gas Land" had biogenic methane (not from fracking) in it.