An alternate view of Nelson Mandela

[JoeB131]

You mean he didnt approve of terrorism against the British that might have benefited the German war effort

What did he have to gain by helping the nazi’s?

Well, funny that. Helping the Nazis wasn't so much the issue, they were too far away.

Helping the Japanese, on the other hand, could have well been to his benefit.

The Japanese, in fact, did set up a puppet Indian Government to rule those parts of East India they occupied.

Azad Hind - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now, imagine an alternate history in which, instead of sending millions of men to fight for the Allies in North Africa, those millions of men started a guerrilla movement in favor of Azad Hind and independence as part of the East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.

The Allies would have been really and truly screwed.

 

[forkup]

More specifically the Sharpeville massacre.

What you are describing was violence against the protest movement

Which was true in India also

The ANC adopted the radical and murderous PLO terrorist approach that Gandhi never lowered himself to

They are not the same at all

I never claimed the situations were the same, you’re the one drawing that comparison.

My point is the opposite: they were fundamentally different.

In India, the British Empire was an external power with declining resources and political will. Withdrawal was always a viable option.

In South Africa, you had a domestic minority regime whose entire position depended on maintaining control. There was no ‘home country’ to return to, and far stronger incentives to resist change.

That difference matters when evaluating which strategies were viable at the time, especially without the benefit of hindsight.

And labeling all armed resistance as ‘terrorism’ sidesteps the question of whether any effective nonviolent alternative actually existed under those conditions. You just assert it did because it worked in India.

How do you non-violently resist when you can't organize in political parties. Your leadership gets jailed indefinetly and you personally get shot or jailed when you protest?

 

[Mac-7]

I never claimed the situations were the same, you’re the one drawing that comparison.

My point is the opposite: they were fundamentally different.

In India, the British Empire was an external power with declining resources and political will. Withdrawal was always a viable option.

In South Africa, you had a domestic minority regime whose entire position depended on maintaining control. There was no ‘home country’ to return to, and far stronger incentives to resist change.

That difference matters when evaluating which strategies were viable at the time, especially without the benefit of hindsight.

And labeling all armed resistance as ‘terrorism’ sidesteps the question of whether any effective nonviolent alternative actually existed under those conditions. You just assert it did because it worked in India.

How do you non-violently resist when you can't organize in political parties. Your leadership gets jailed indefinetly and you personally get shot or jailed when you protest?

Apartheid did not end because ANC terrorism overwhelmed the ruling government

The apartheid could easily manufacture enough ammo to kill all the black protestors and would have if not for world opinion

Mandela’s violence accomplished nothing that did not happen in India without bloodshed

 

[forkup]

Apartheid did not end because ANC terrorism overwhelmed the ruling government

The apartheid could easily manufacture enough ammo to kill all the black protestors and would have if not for world opinion

Mandela’s violence accomplished nothing that did not happen in India without bloodshed

Here you go again. Pretending that India amd S-Africa are the same situation.

If that's your entire argument we have nothing further to discuss.

 

[Mac-7]

Here you go again. Pretending that India amd S-Africa are the same situation.

If that's your entire argument we have nothing further to discuss.

I laid it out for you

Ultimately it was world opinion not PLO style murder that caused the end of apartheid

The ANC could not have won a shooting war

Non violence worked in India and America and could have worked in SA too if not for Mandela’s decision to murder people instead

 

[JoeB131]

Apartheid did not end because ANC terrorism overwhelmed the ruling government

The apartheid could easily manufacture enough ammo to kill all the black protestors and would have if not for world opinion

Mandela’s violence accomplished nothing that did not happen in India without bloodshed

Apartheid ended because 10% of whites ruling over 90% of blacks didn't make sense to anyone, even the Whites.

 

[JoeB131]

I laid it out for you

Ultimately it was world opinion not PLO style murder that caused the end of apartheid

The ANC could not have won a shooting war

Non violence worked in India and America and could have worked in SA too if not for Mandela’s decision to murder people instead

Non-violence only works if there is an implicit threat of violence behind it.

 

[Deadstick]

Color me shocked from the usual suspects.

Amazing isn't it, the place is crawling with white supremasist garbage that have learned nothing and refuse to become civilized humans, Mandela was a Giant who spent 27 years in concentration camp, his people were not nearly violent enough against that Nazi Apartheid State.

 

[BackAgain]

You mean he didnt approve of terrorism against the British that might have benefited the German war effort

What did he have to gain by helping the nazi’s?

The prevention of evil.

 

[BackAgain]

I think you are confused about the argument.

Ghandi used passive resistance to protest British exploitation of India.

But when the War came, he encouraged Indians to take up arms against the Axis, because as bad as the British were, the Axis would have been so much worse.

However, it was with the understanding that the British would leave India after the war. Which Churchill tried to renege on, but FDR and Truman made sure they did. (It didn't help that the UK was a basket case after the war and couldn't hold on to her Empire, which was mostly gone by 1965.

I think you’re an imbecile.

Everyone knows all about how he sought peace via pacifism.

Sadly, it doesn’t work.

His pacifism would never allow him to fight against the evils of Hitler. But fighting against that eternal scumbag was exactly what was needed. It was the only just solution.

 

[Mac-7]

The prevention of evil.

You are not even close

The Brits were out of step with the times, but they were never evil the way nazi’s were

 

[BackAgain]

You are not even close

The Brits were out of step with the times, but they were never evil the way nazi’s were

Please let me know what I posted that made you think I was discussing the British?

 

[Mac-7]

Please let me know what I posted that made you think I was discussing the British?

We were discussing the Brits until your last post

I have no idea where you are now

 

[BackAgain]

We were discussing the Brits until your last post

I have no idea where you are now

Nope.

I was addressing Gandhi’s lack of interest in confronting horrible evil.

It isn’t clear how you imagine I was discussing the British at all.

 

[Deadstick]

You dont know what you are talking about

Hundreds if not thousands of white farmers have been murdered and agricultural production has declined under ANC control

Is that your argument for supporting Nazi Apartheid?

 

[Deadstick]

You mean 58-74 white farmers murdered annually

And that's just what is admitted to by the guilt-ridden lib AI and the ANC government running SA

The actual number could be much higher

how many white farmers have been murdered in south africa at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

After what the Nazi Apartheid Regime did to the black and brown population i am surprised their wasn't a bloodbath, but Mandela tried to bring the people together.

 

[JoeB131]

I think you’re an imbecile.

Everyone knows all about how he sought peace via pacifism.

Sadly, it doesn’t work.

His pacifism would never allow him to fight against the evils of Hitler. But fighting against that eternal scumbag was exactly what was needed. It was the only just solution.

What was in it for India? The problem is that you guys think Hitler wanted to take over the world, which is just... silly. In fact, Hitler would have been perfectly happy to let the US have the Americas, Japan have Asia, and the UK have the ME and Africa, so long as he got to keep Europe.

Ghandi was lukewarm in his support for the Allied cause because he opposed war in general.

If he hadn't, he might have called for Indians to rise up during the war for independence, instead of encouraging them to join the Commonwealth forces.

 

[JoeB131]

Nope.

I was addressing Gandhi’s lack of interest in confronting horrible evil.

It isn’t clear how you imagine I was discussing the British at all.

Speaking of the British, the British allowed a horrible famine to kill perhaps as many as 4 million people in East Bengal. When he heard about the famine, Churchill replied, "Has Ghandi starved yet."

Churchill hated Gandhi as much as he hated Hitler.

 

[Mac-7]

BackAgain

Is that your argument for supporting Nazi Apartheid?

you are becoming hysterical

You think my not approving of the ANC murdering people amounts to support for apartheid?

I think you know this topic is slipping away from you and you hope to save it by making outragious claims with no basis in fact

 

[Deadstick]

BackAgain

you are becoming hysterical

You think my not approving of the ANC murdering people amounts to support for apartheid?

I think you know this topic is slipping away from you and you hope to save it by making outragious claims with no basis in fact

It's simple in a situation like Apartheid South Africa where there is no middle ground you either support the liberation forces or you don't, being neutral doesn't cut it, at the time most Western Governments supported the forces of Apartheid to their shame but pretended to be independent,Apartheid South Africa was a violent Fascist police state who attacked and invaded their Neighbours, very much like Israel, in fact Israel collaborated with the South African Regime.