American Extremism

[Iceweasel]

Yes I have always had a reputation as being a fair minded individual.

Sadly I think that racism will always exist in one form or another.

Poverty and fear are the two main drivers. Whilst poverty is relative and can be addressed fear can always be generated by those who have an agenda to do so.

Better standards of education may help as well.

I dont really understand your point about left wing racism. Perhaps you could elaborate on it.

Look at the ads for SC right now. The left is pandering to the black vote. The fact that there is a "black vote" is a problem. Why do different races need special concerns? On the right, they don't. It's the left that makes people feel they are a group and the group needs Democrat oversight. It's all about power and the fact is it doesn't work. Blacks are not doing better in spite of it.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Yes I have always had a reputation as being a fair minded individual.

Sadly I think that racism will always exist in one form or another.

Poverty and fear are the two main drivers. Whilst poverty is relative and can be addressed fear can always be generated by those who have an agenda to do so.

Better standards of education may help as well.

I dont really understand your point about left wing racism. Perhaps you could elaborate on it.

Look at the ads for NC right now. The left is pandering to the black vote. The fact that there is a "black vote" is a problem. Why do different races need special concerns? On the right, they don't. It's the left that makes people feel they are a group and the group needs Democrat oversight. It's all about power and the fact is it doesn't work. Blacks are not doing better in spite of it.

I am not sure that I agree with you on the process. Left wing politics, by its nature, seeks to help those who are disadvantaged. Black people have a long history of being oppressed in the US and you would expect them to be drawn to left wing politics as their best option. I say that from a distance.
It is certainly true in the UK where the tories ,until recently, were a very racist party who detested any non white group. Enoch Powell epitomised this. Further to the right of the tories there were other more sinister organisations who were/are essentially racist scum. Racism, certainly in the UK, is a right wing trait.

 

[Correll]

Yes I have always had a reputation as being a fair minded individual.

Sadly I think that racism will always exist in one form or another.

Poverty and fear are the two main drivers. Whilst poverty is relative and can be addressed fear can always be generated by those who have an agenda to do so.

Better standards of education may help as well.

I dont really understand your point about left wing racism. Perhaps you could elaborate on it.

Look at the ads for NC right now. The left is pandering to the black vote. The fact that there is a "black vote" is a problem. Why do different races need special concerns? On the right, they don't. It's the left that makes people feel they are a group and the group needs Democrat oversight. It's all about power and the fact is it doesn't work. Blacks are not doing better in spite of it.

I am not sure that I agree with you on the process. Left wing politics, by its nature, seeks to help those who are disadvantaged. Black people have a long history of being oppressed in the US and you would expect them to be drawn to left wing politics as their best option. I say that from a distance.
It is certainly true in the UK where the tories ,until recently, were a very racist party who detested any non white group. Enoch Powell epitomised this. Further to the right of the tories there were other more sinister organisations who were/are essentially racist scum. Racism, certainly in the UK, is a right wing trait.

Tell that to the white girls tortured by those brown rape rings in your country.

They were denied the equal protection of the law, or ANY protection of the law because their rapists were of a "traditionally disadvantaged group".

ANd that was coming from the LEFT.

Who were afraid that admitting the problem would encourage the supposedly "racist" right.

 

[Iceweasel]

Yes I have always had a reputation as being a fair minded individual.

Sadly I think that racism will always exist in one form or another.

Poverty and fear are the two main drivers. Whilst poverty is relative and can be addressed fear can always be generated by those who have an agenda to do so.

Better standards of education may help as well.

I dont really understand your point about left wing racism. Perhaps you could elaborate on it.

Look at the ads for NC right now. The left is pandering to the black vote. The fact that there is a "black vote" is a problem. Why do different races need special concerns? On the right, they don't. It's the left that makes people feel they are a group and the group needs Democrat oversight. It's all about power and the fact is it doesn't work. Blacks are not doing better in spite of it.

I am not sure that I agree with you on the process. Left wing politics, by its nature, seeks to help those who are disadvantaged. Black people have a long history of being oppressed in the US and you would expect them to be drawn to left wing politics as their best option. I say that from a distance.
It is certainly true in the UK where the tories ,until recently, were a very racist party who detested any non white group. Enoch Powell epitomised this. Further to the right of the tories there were other more sinister organisations who were/are essentially racist scum. Racism, certainly in the UK, is a right wing trait.

I can't speak on UK politics but how many black leaders do you have? You see, in this country, you can succeed regardless of your race. There are many very successful black folks. None of them, except maybe Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson or the few that made a living from it, got there by making their race an issue.

Those who make race an issue are the true racists. They see a race, not a person. That has a devastating psychological effect on a person's psyche, what happens to him happens because of his race, not what he did or didn't do.

Conservatives believe in less government interference, more personal responsibility and accountability. If you fail, you get up and try again. You don't stay down, cry foul and expect a political party to lift you up to where you think you should be.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

British conservatism is all about vested interests. It used to be about Lords and Dukes but now it is about commercial interests.Overall British people are conservative with a small c but the culture you describe is more communal than individual. People working together,supporting each other makes for a gentler and more caring society.

 

[Andylusion]

Depends on what you call domestic terrorists. If you mean those with an ideological agenda, such as the Bundy's and McVeigh, then, since 9-11, there really haven't been that many. If you mean loonies with a gun, there have been all too many.

As for the ones like the Bundy's, I think that the rants at the end of that occupation were so way out there, that may discourage more of that nonsense. They all looked like total loons by the time the occupation of the Refuge ended.

In the UK we have extremists who like to march with flags and spout hate on a saturday afternoon. But it is extremely rare for it to spill over into actually killing people.Do you think that there is any way that the Bundy types would escalate their protest into actual violence ? If not they are a long way from being on the same page as McVeigh.

Well, yes. The left-wing in our country celebrated one of these protesters being killed, in the name of oppressive government.

You have to remember what inspired this. The government refused to give Cliven Bundy permits to graze his cattle, on Federal Land. Now given the Federal Government owns 85% of the land in Nevada, basically the government sentenced Bundy to impoverishment.

How would you respond to that? If your livelihood depended on land, and government owned nearly all the land, and at the same time refused to allow you to use it.... What do you do? Just accept it, and roll over and die?

So these people are pissed off, and rightly so. Now they got control of a tiny lodge, and protested the Federal Government dictating their lives. Big whoopty doo.

But the way the government responded was to shoot one of them. Eventually we will find out if that was in self defense, or if it was an execution. I doubt it was an execution. That's my personal opinion.

But.... the way the left has responded to this.... not good. Not very smart. Kind of like Palestine on 9/11.

Now again, if your the one who is being ruined by the Federal Govenrment, which owns all the land, and is telling you to roll over and die, and then you protest that, and you get shot, and people celebrate it................

Well CRAP! What do you think is going to happen?? I would not be all that surprised if things didn't get violent. And I wouldn't blame them much.

Thanks for the clarification. My understanding was that Mr Bundy was allowed to graze his cattle but refused to pay the fees for doing so. Perhaps the truth gets lost sometimes ?

Bundy paid the fees for years, when the government was giving him permits for all his cattle. It was when they refused to give permits, that he refused to pay, and grazed anyway. The left wing media, and eco-idiots that seek to portray from a favorable perspective, conveniently leave that part out.

 

[2aguy]

There are some who see White American extremism as a bigger threat to America than any external form of terrorism.

My understanding is that since 9/11 there have been more incidents, and deaths, in America caused by domestic terrorists than Jihadis.

Most recently there has been an incident in Oregon where armed men occupied public buildings and threatened all manner of nonsense if their demands were not met.

These people call themselves “patriots” seemingly to give themselves a coating of respectability. In reality they appear to be a lumpen crew of weekend warriors with a changeable agenda of grievances.

Still they seem to have a measure of support and some have defended their actions.

My question is this.

What is the state of play amongst American extremists ?

What do they all want ?

Is there a link ,in ideology, between atrocities like Oklahoma,Charleston and Oregon ? Are the KKK and other nazis a part of this ?

Are Patriots at the “acceptable” end of the extremist spectrum ? From this distance they look a bit absurd but they do own guns and must be considered dangerous.

Do they have widespread support ?

Whats going on ?

You are sadly reading either the American press or your own press.....American "extremists" are a way of hiding the truth about muslim violence........

The only way they can claim that Americans are more dangerous than muslims is that they always somehow fail to include the 3,000 people killed on 911 when they make their calculations.....

And those guys in Oregon didn't hurt anyone.....did they?

We just had another muslim hack 4 people at a deli with a machete....

Aren't you from Australia....? Where you just had two gun toting muslims murder people with guns....last year.....one a teenager....?

 

[2aguy]

British conservatism is all about vested interests. It used to be about Lords and Dukes but now it is about commercial interests.Overall British people are conservative with a small c but the culture you describe is more communal than individual. People working together,supporting each other makes for a gentler and more caring society.

Until the government welfare system collapses......

 

[2aguy]

The Boston bombers were Muslim. The guy who killed the military recruiters was Muslim. The Ft. Hood shooter was Muslim. Need I go on? Cliven Bundy killed nobody. The Oregon refuge militia guys killed no one!

So are you saying that patriot militias have no links with any form of extremism, other than their own ?

They are not an issue here........they are only an issue in the media that gives them more coverage than they merit....because they don't want to cover the actual threat of real muslim extremists....

 

[2aguy]

Most of them are no more than drinking clubs of limited membership that sit around fantasizing "Red Dawn" and get uppity when they start believing their own hype. They are important only because of the coverage mainstream media affords them in an attempt to connect all together into a monolithic right-wing political threat in the public's eyes.

If something ever pops here, it will be nationwide, and not to be ignored.

Cheers, that is what I am trying to get my head around. So there isnt an umbrella group that bonds them all together ?

You really have no clue as to what you are blathering about, do you?

Well at my age I have a right to be a bit confused !
I am trying to understand what would motivate an American to kill other Americans. The Charleston killings,for example, look to be politically motivated by a right wing extremist. The Bundy club seem to garner support from right wingers.
It just seems that American culture is under threat from neo nazi nut jobs.

No, we are actually under threat by a feral savage entity called the Negro. I suggest you check out the statistics on black on white crime. It's rampant and Whites are under brutal attacks. A negro is a true impulsive domestic bred terrorist with zero compassion for life.

So the Charleston attack was a legitimate act of resistance ?

What Charleston attack are you referring to....?

 

[elektra]

[I am not sure that I agree with you on the process. Left wing politics, by its nature, seeks to help those who are disadvantaged. Black people have a long history of being oppressed in the US and you would expect them to be drawn to left wing politics as their best option. I say that from a distance.
It is certainly true in the UK where the tories ,until recently, were a very racist party who detested any non white group. Enoch Powell epitomised this. Further to the right of the tories there were other more sinister organisations who were/are essentially racist scum. Racism, certainly in the UK, is a right wing trait.

It was the Left that oppressed the Blacks in the USA, actually it was the Left who murdered or lynched the Blacks in the USA.

It was the Left that opposed Civil Rights for Blacks in the USA.

It is propaganda that has convinced people otherwise.

 

[2aguy]

It just seems that American culture is under threat from neo nazi nut jobs.

Neo Nazis are criminal, not political. They talk a little bit about politics but they really just commit robberies and sell drugs. There are other gangs who are way more dangerous than the so-called Nazis.

If they have an ideology then it is political. Why else are they there ?

I told you why they're there, they make money through criminal enterprise. The white power window dressing is there to attract recruits but they are not a political force in this country and they're not even trying to be.

The kid responsible for the Charleston atrocity didnt seem to have any agenda other than killing black people. Where was he making money from it ?

Do you mean the Church shooter.....?

Do you know that his first choice of target was the a University....but when he learned it had armed security he decided to shoot up that church because it was a gun free zone.......killing black people wasn't his first priority.......that church stuck out because of it's history, not because they were black.....

 

[2aguy]

I told you why they're there, they make money through criminal enterprise. The white power window dressing is there to attract recruits but they are not a political force in this country and they're not even trying to be.

The kid responsible for the Charleston atrocity didnt seem to have any agenda other than killing black people. Where was he making money from it ?

The kid in Charleston wasn't a skin head.

He was a nazi though.
I have no choice. I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.

No he wasn't. He was a racialist if anything and if his friends can be believed he was also a bit touched in the head.

Are you here to learn more about America before the election, as you claimed, or are you here to try to tell Americans what we should think about our own country? You're going to need to learn a lot more if it's option 2.

I am trying to understand why one form of terrorism is evil and another form isnt. Two groups of loonies killing people for their "cause" are both terrorists.

Except the one group you keep mentioning, the ones in Oregon, didn't kill anyone, while muslims keep killing people over here........

And of the terror groups...left wing environmental groups have caused more damage than any other groups.......

 

[2aguy]

The kid in Charleston wasn't a skin head.

He was a nazi though.
I have no choice. I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.

No he wasn't. He was a racialist if anything and if his friends can be believed he was also a bit touched in the head.

Are you here to learn more about America before the election, as you claimed, or are you here to try to tell Americans what we should think about our own country? You're going to need to learn a lot more if it's option 2.

I am trying to understand why one form of terrorism is evil and another form isnt. Two groups of loonies killing people for their "cause" are both terrorists.

Then you should probably learn about the groups you're pointing out before you open your mouth. As proof of Roof being a Nazi you pulled a quote from him complaining about there being no skinheads or klan. Think about that.

His singling out of one particular group qualifies him as a nazi.
I have been giving this some thought.
I believe that white extremist terrorism doesnt fit with a prevailing narrative that states that terrorism can only be committed by muslims. Accepting that it exists undermines the fallacy that muslims = bad, christians = good.
The world is more complicated than that but as we can see on this thread, some people lack the tools to think or debate.

Yeah...no one ever said that muslims are the only ones who can commit terrorism...they are just the ones doing the most of it...you are presenting an argument no one is making....

 

[2aguy]

Nazi is a loose term that covers a wide variety of hate, racism,homophobia and so on.

It seems to be a bigger problem than just one "doped out mental case".

Hatewatch

Militia Member and Body Armor Supplier Accused of Making Pipe Bombs

Texas Border Militia Leader Sentenced to Prison

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2015/11/25/three-men-who-shot-black-lives-matter-protesters-emerged-internet%E2%80%99s-racist-swamps

Aryan Brotherhood Chief Gets 50 Years in State Prison

You're wrong, Nazi has a specific meaning.

You're still wrong about Dylann Roof, you haven't proved anything about him other than his crime was racially motivated. You also still haven't gotten around to showing the widespread white extremism you claimed to be so interested in.

I am not sure what else there is to say about Roof. Nazi terrorist.

Heres a list of hate groups. I cant quantify how widespread they are but it is concerning how the ideology of some of them, particularly with regards to gay rights, seem to be gaining traction on the legit right wing of US politics.Cruz, for example, has some nasty types backing him.

List of organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as hate groups - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you realize that the Southern Poverty law Center is now a left wing racist group....? They turned from being a Civil Rights group to being a racist group a long time ago.

 

[2aguy]

Carnage in Charleston

This is an interesting report on Roof. It suggests that lone nuts are being radicalised by extremist crap they find on the internet.

I offered. For whatever reason you guys in the UK can't seem to get enough of American racism. Too bad your sources are outdated and you're all stuck in the 1960's. I'll tell you what the new danger is, you can impress all of your friends by being not quite as ignorant as them. Here's a freebie: the Klan hasn't existed in 40 years so get over that. The second one, the big one, you have to say please for that.

Ku Klux Klan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This would suggest that you are wrong.

The problem is that the klan is a creation of post War democrats. Used by the democrats in the south to terrorize Republicans and the newly freed blacks......

Sadly, the democrat party today, and including President obama, is a the primary party of racism in the United States....probably something you don't get in Britain. All of the core groups in the democrat party today are racist, openly and proudly racist. President obama was a member of a rabidly racist church for 20 years, and the openly and proudly racist pastor of that church, jeremiah wright, married him and michelle and baptized their children......

You might want to investigate that if you are so concerned with actual racism in the United States.......

 

[2aguy]

The KKK still exists although grumbling is about it for them these days.

If you wish to discuss domestic terrorism you must include the Black Panthers and La Raza. What is that "knockout game" if not classic terrorism? The same is true of "BLM" rioting and violence and the call of Black hate mongers to kill white people.

There is nothing "extremist" about Americans hating the current American government. That is the emotion that resulted in the formation of America in the first place and remains as American as baseball and apple pie although the numbers of people included varies greatly depending on the actions (or lack thereof) of the government. Specifics vary but Americans remain very much aware that the government was formed to serve them instead of the other way round.

And the black panthers and la raza...vote democrat....

 

[2aguy]

Yes I have always had a reputation as being a fair minded individual.

Sadly I think that racism will always exist in one form or another.

Poverty and fear are the two main drivers. Whilst poverty is relative and can be addressed fear can always be generated by those who have an agenda to do so.

Better standards of education may help as well.

I dont really understand your point about left wing racism. Perhaps you could elaborate on it.

The left in this country uses race in order to keep minorities dependent on the democrat party. They blame racism for all of their ills and of course in order to get power and strike back at those harming them, they simply need to give the democrats power to grow the government to the point where they can give them everything they want.

All of the core power groups in the democrat party are openly and proudly race based, and racist. From la raza, to the congressional black caucus, to the nation of islam and to the democrat Presidents....clinton and obama...they are all racist......and use racism to achieve power......

 

[2aguy]

Yes I have always had a reputation as being a fair minded individual.

Sadly I think that racism will always exist in one form or another.

Poverty and fear are the two main drivers. Whilst poverty is relative and can be addressed fear can always be generated by those who have an agenda to do so.

Better standards of education may help as well.

I dont really understand your point about left wing racism. Perhaps you could elaborate on it.

Look at the ads for NC right now. The left is pandering to the black vote. The fact that there is a "black vote" is a problem. Why do different races need special concerns? On the right, they don't. It's the left that makes people feel they are a group and the group needs Democrat oversight. It's all about power and the fact is it doesn't work. Blacks are not doing better in spite of it.

I am not sure that I agree with you on the process. Left wing politics, by its nature, seeks to help those who are disadvantaged. Black people have a long history of being oppressed in the US and you would expect them to be drawn to left wing politics as their best option. I say that from a distance.
It is certainly true in the UK where the tories ,until recently, were a very racist party who detested any non white group. Enoch Powell epitomised this. Further to the right of the tories there were other more sinister organisations who were/are essentially racist scum. Racism, certainly in the UK, is a right wing trait.

Right and left are different in the United STates...our racists are on the left. They use race to separate minorities from the main stream of America so that they become dependent on the left wing democrats. Those on the Right, American Conservatives, don't care about race.....believe in individual rights and freedoms and try to uphold the principal that all men are created equal.....

The left and democrats, seek to keep the races divided and angry......

 

[Andylusion]

Yes I have always had a reputation as being a fair minded individual.

Sadly I think that racism will always exist in one form or another.

Poverty and fear are the two main drivers. Whilst poverty is relative and can be addressed fear can always be generated by those who have an agenda to do so.

Better standards of education may help as well.

I dont really understand your point about left wing racism. Perhaps you could elaborate on it.

Look at the ads for NC right now. The left is pandering to the black vote. The fact that there is a "black vote" is a problem. Why do different races need special concerns? On the right, they don't. It's the left that makes people feel they are a group and the group needs Democrat oversight. It's all about power and the fact is it doesn't work. Blacks are not doing better in spite of it.

I am not sure that I agree with you on the process. Left wing politics, by its nature, seeks to help those who are disadvantaged. Black people have a long history of being oppressed in the US and you would expect them to be drawn to left wing politics as their best option. I say that from a distance.
It is certainly true in the UK where the tories ,until recently, were a very racist party who detested any non white group. Enoch Powell epitomised this. Further to the right of the tories there were other more sinister organisations who were/are essentially racist scum. Racism, certainly in the UK, is a right wing trait.

I wonder about that.

Now granted, I don't know anything about the UK, or the Tories. Here in America though, people are called racists, any time that do not agree with a specific policy the left pushes.

I don't believe in forcibly taking money from one group, to pay for another group. I must be racists. Because I do not believe in Welfare, and since many blacks are on welfare, therefor I must be racists.

I didn't vote for Obama. I must be racists.

I don't believe in affirmative action. I don't believe that you must, as a requirement of law, hire a less qualified candidate, simply because they have a different level of pigment in their skin. I must be racists.

Nor do I believe that an irrelevant statistic means anything. I do not believe that a company must hire a specific percentage of minority people, or they are obviously racists. Thus since I disagree with that, I must be racists.

Obviously over the internet, there is no way anyone would know me... but those who do know me personally, would find the racism accusation hilarious. For many years, I thought I would marry a minority. My closest friends were black. The only girl in my life, that I ever really considered for marriage, was a dark skinned woman.

But none of that matter. Because I disagree with left-wing ideology, I am a racists.

Now if that is how you judge Tories to be racists... then I would suggest that is bonkers.

The other method for claiming a group is racists, is by saying "a racist person voted for them". So I voted for politician X, and that racists guy over in Montana, voted for politician X, therefore that politicians must be racists, and since I voted for that politician, I must be racists too.

Yet I know racists that voted for the other candidate too. I know openly racists people who voted for Obama, because they wanted free health care, which is a left-wing platform.

There are racists people in the world. There will never be a day when there is not. And those racists people are going to vote for someone. Does the fact a racists votes for someone, make that someone a racists? Ridiculous.

If anything I'd suggest the constant accusations by the left, that everyone else is racists, is likely created more racists people. You attack people for being racists long enough, eventually they'll become racists.