Am I losing my faith or just becoming more realistic?

[zaangalewa]

There is no god. ...

And how do you explain in this form of belief why something is existing at all? Why is it more easy that something like space, time, energy, structures and so on are existing? Why is not nothing? And why follows this, what is existing, a kind of "logic"? Why are we able to speak about?

(And please do me the favor not to think this nonsense (including darwinistic, nationalistic and socialistic nonsense), which US-American politicians say to each other and their people has anything to do with the Christian religion. If the politics of the USA would be dominated by Christians you had only about 1-2% of all abortions and no death penalty. And you would think much more about an effective health insurance for everyone and stable social systems. And who would need weapons during daily life? For what?)

 

[Denizen]

There is no god. ...

And how do you explain in this form of belief why something is existing at all? Why is it more easy that something like space, time, energy, structures and so on are existing? Why is not nothing? And why follows this, what is existing, a kind of "logic"? Why are we able to speak about?

(And please do me the favor not to think this nonsense (including darwinistic, nationalistic and socialistic nonsense), which US-American politicians say to each other and their people has anything to do with the Christian religion. If the politics of the USA would be dominated by Christians you had only about 1-2% of all abortions and no death penalty. And you would think much more about an effective health insurance for everyone and stable social systems. And who would need weapons during daily life? For what?)

US Christians are self-deluded and bogus. They have no belief other than enriching themselves as fast as they can.

It is inconceivable that before there was anything there was an omnipotent, omniscient, being who created everything out of nothing.

What created this mythical being?

Why does anything exist?

 

[zaangalewa]

There is no god. ...

And how do you explain in this form of belief why something is existing at all? Why is it more easy that something like space, time, energy, structures and so on are existing? Why is not nothing? And why follows this, what is existing, a kind of "logic"? Why are we able to speak about?

(And please do me the favor not to think this nonsense (including darwinistic, nationalistic and socialistic nonsense), which US-American politicians say to each other and their people has anything to do with the Christian religion. If the politics of the USA would be dominated by Christians you had only about 1-2% of all abortions and no death penalty. And you would think much more about an effective health insurance for everyone and stable social systems. And who would need weapons during daily life? For what?)

US Christians are self-deluded and bogus.

No idea what you like to say with this sentence.

They have no belief other than enriching themselves as fast as they can.

I guess you think about the teachings of Calvin and others in this context. Richdom is not a sign of the grace of god - but I'm not sure about, whether materialistic richdom is in the opposite more a kind of punishment.

It is inconceivable that before there was anything there was an omnipotent, omniscient, being who created everything out of nothing.

This is not an answer to this what I had asked.

What created this mythical being?

Why does anything exist?

God exists not in the limitations of this what we call "time". God is creator. Did he exist before he created time? Yes and no. We think - (what is not necessary for the Christian religion) - before he had created the world (or the worlds) nothing was. Absolutelly nothing. He made everything out of nothing. We say "In the beginning was the word and the word was with god and god was the word". Word means "logos".

You think this is a story like so many other stories human beings made. But this is not what I asked you. I asked you:

How do you explain in this [=your] form of belief why something is existing at all? Why is it more easy that something like space, time, energy, structures and so on are existing? Why is not nothing? And why follows this, what is existing, a kind of "logic"? Why are we able to speak about?

Your belief is - as far as I understand it - nothing what is "spiritual" or "meta-physics" exists. For me - in a most simple example - the spirituality of physics is word, is logos, is mathematics. Without this human pictures of "the logos" we would not be able to say a lot about the real world all around us. In case of natural science we have even the "problem" that natural science knows only "one truth" in a similar way how we Christians believe in god. For example: A fact in chemistry and a fact in physics are not able to be in a contradiction.

So again now my not trivial question:

How do you explain in this [=your] form of belief why something is existing at all? Why is it more easy that something like space, time, energy, structures and so on are existing? Why is not nothing [instead nothing is [¿not?] existing]? [If nothing not exists(¿why?), what has to exist alternatively?] And why follows this, what is existing, a kind of "logic"? Why are we able to speak about?

 

[Denizen]

If God created everything from nothing, what created god?

Why does matter and everything derived from matter exist?

If there was a god he could be billions of light-years away. How could he possibly influence our existence? If matter post 'big bang' is 13.8 billion years old and has been expanding at the speed of light why can we even see anything if matter has become so dispersed by perpetual expansion?

The Universe, and or Pluriverse must have been created before the 'big bang', 13.8 billion years ago. Mankind did not exist at that time anywhere and matter already existed before the big bang for an unknown period of time.

If God created everything from nothing, how could any sentient being less than 13.8+ billion years old know that?

 

[zaangalewa]

If God created everything from nothing, what created god?

Nothing. But this is not what I asked.

Why does matter and everything derived from matter exist?

If there was a god he could be billions of light-years away. How could he possibly influence our existence? If matter post 'big bang' is 13.8 billion years old and has been expanding at the speed of light why can we even see anything if matter has become so dispersed by perpetual expansion?

The Universe, and or Pluriverse must have been created before the 'big bang', 13.8 billion years ago. Mankind did not exist at that time anywhere and matter already existed before the big bang for an unknown period of time.

If God created everything from nothing, how could any sentient being less than 13.8+ billion years old know that?

I asked you nothing about god. I asked you nothing about the big bang too (which justifies to think the world is created). I asked you something about your belief and your way to be able to think about problems. Your way to think seems to be "Because all others are wrong so I am right. And as long as others are not able to tell me, that I am definetelly wrong (what I would ignore in a worst case scenario), I'm much more right. So I don't have to take care what I believe".

In case of the sister of this Australian Jesuit (Richard Leonhard) you can see in her in a most abstract way a living structure, which is partially broken. So this structure needs to be healed - what is an essential way to think for Christians. But we are still not able to heal such a destruction of a body. What is your solution in her case? Do you think to destroy additionally her and everyones belief in god is the message of this hour of her sufferings now?

 

[JoeB131]

I am sorry for two things. First that you had such an ignorant teacher. (It appears around the same time your teacher was spouting this, I had a very different nun saying very different things. She was a lovely person.) Second, that (apparently) you have never done any research into the themes of the Biblical account of the flood. Since it was an Old Testament story, both modern and centuries old rabbinical commentary is quite interesting.

Actually, I've had a lot of discussions with religious types about the Flood Myth, and none of them came up with an explanation about how a supposedly "Good" God would need to drown every baby in the world that didn't sound just as fucked up as what Sister Mary Butch came up with.

Look, I can sympathize with running into a bad teacher, who is also a nun. I had one who still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end--not because of how she taught religion but because of how she treated her students. At least in the classroom, she was not a sterling example of humanity, let alone Christianity. Even so, I can still pinpoint a couple of moments where she appeared to have regrets for how she acted.

Oh, quite the contrary... I thought Sister Mary Butch was A FINE example of "Christianity". She was an old frustrated lesbian who tried to pray away the gay and took her frustrations out on kids she could never have because she found penises to be icky.

More to the point, if you take out the threats of punishment and the promises of rewards, what else do you have.

You see, the the Hebrews, there was no afterlife. God was just every force of nature they didn't understand, which is why Yahweh, like every other Bronze Age Sky Fairy, When you were dead, you were dead, and you got Dead a lot faster if God was angry with you because he brought a plague or his followers would straight up murder your ass to appease him.

THEN people got a little more sophisticated with the Iron Age, with philosophy and such, and that's when you got them inserted all this crap about angels and demons and heaven and hell. Because any causal observer WOULD realize that bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people, so there has to be SOME kind of promise of fairness.

Not to worry, kids, that rich guy is totally going to Hell, Jesus said. Now give our church some money!!!!

 

[JoeB131]

When I am studying (or in) the physical world, I want evidence as well. Nothing like something that can be experienced by the five senses and (in a lab setting) always get the same results. Nothing like the objective!

Even so, I find the subjective (or philosophical) world equally as fascinating. It can be more of a challenge because one has to make do without the five senses. Subjectively, it is a matter of defining which is at work...mind or spirit. It is difficult, and one can be/is often mistaken for the other.

So, you got nothing, then?

Yes, that is harsh. God doesn't go around zapping this and that on either humanity or nature.

Someone once told me that he had run across a quote that made a lot of sense to him. We are not humans seeking a spiritual experience. We are spirits seeking a human experience.

That, again, is retarded. Whoops, you grew up poor during your 30 years of life and got shot by a cop committing a crime. Off to Hell with you. Whoops, your parents didn't get you dipped before you died of SIDS! Off to Limbo with you. Whoops, you were kind of an okay person who wasn't particularly religious. Off to Purgatory with you.

I go back to my fun analogy. By Christian Dogma, Jeff Dahmner is in Heaven (as he embraced Jesus and was absolved of all his sins before they brained him to death) but Ann Frank is is Hell because she rejected Jesus. This if fucked up by any measure of decency... but it's Christian Dogma.

The human experience can be overwhelming enough, I should know. I once lost four family members and my best friend in the space of weeks. Most were so unexpected. I was in such grief I did not even know who I was grieving for at any given moment--which bothered me a lot. I don't know what I would have done had someone suggested that God had targeted my loved ones (and me) for some unknown reason. Instead (about six months later) I was slowly able to once again comprehend how the Spirit of God assists a human spirit through a very human experience.

Have you ever considered a spirit existence that wanted a physical experience--all the good and bad that goes with physical existence?

Nope, I've never considered that. It's retarded for all the reasons stated above.

What I realized from what that Nasty old nun said was that these people are full of shit, they have no evidence.

Mind you, I didn't start having doubts that day. I had doubts long before then. For instance, the Bible CLEARLY says "NO GRAVEN IMAGES!!" It's one of the Ten Commandments. But man, you go into a Catholic Church and you'll see all sorts of Statues of Jesus and Mary and the Saints. (My joke seeing a statue of St. Joseph at my niece's baptism, "Only my patron saint would have bought THAT story!" )

 

[Meriweather]

Actually, I've had a lot of discussions with religious types about the Flood Myth, and none of them came up with an explanation about how a supposedly "Good" God would need to drown every baby in the world

The first thing to understand is that the flood was a natural disaster, not something zapped on the world by God. Second, as it was written in hindsight, it is also interesting to see the author blaming mankind--not God--for the flood. Interwoven in the story are all the failings of a righteous man, which presents the idea the story I was written at a time and place where the author, at least, still despaired of human behavior.

 

[Likkmee]

When I am studying (or in) the physical world, I want evidence as well. Nothing like something that can be experienced by the five senses and (in a lab setting) always get the same results. Nothing like the objective!

Even so, I find the subjective (or philosophical) world equally as fascinating. It can be more of a challenge because one has to make do without the five senses. Subjectively, it is a matter of defining which is at work...mind or spirit. It is difficult, and one can be/is often mistaken for the other.

So, you got nothing, then?

Yes, that is harsh. God doesn't go around zapping this and that on either humanity or nature.

Someone once told me that he had run across a quote that made a lot of sense to him. We are not humans seeking a spiritual experience. We are spirits seeking a human experience.

That, again, is retarded. Whoops, you grew up poor during your 30 years of life and got shot by a cop committing a crime. Off to Hell with you. Whoops, your parents didn't get you dipped before you died of SIDS! Off to Limbo with you. Whoops, you were kind of an okay person who wasn't particularly religious. Off to Purgatory with you.

I go back to my fun analogy. By Christian Dogma, Jeff Dahmner is in Heaven (as he embraced Jesus and was absolved of all his sins before they brained him to death) but Ann Frank is is Hell because she rejected Jesus. This if fucked up by any measure of decency... but it's Christian Dogma.

The human experience can be overwhelming enough, I should know. I once lost four family members and my best friend in the space of weeks. Most were so unexpected. I was in such grief I did not even know who I was grieving for at any given moment--which bothered me a lot. I don't know what I would have done had someone suggested that God had targeted my loved ones (and me) for some unknown reason. Instead (about six months later) I was slowly able to once again comprehend how the Spirit of God assists a human spirit through a very human experience.

Have you ever considered a spirit existence that wanted a physical experience--all the good and bad that goes with physical existence?

Nope, I've never considered that. It's retarded for all the reasons stated above.

What I realized from what that Nasty old nun said was that these people are full of shit, they have no evidence.

Mind you, I didn't start having doubts that day. I had doubts long before then. For instance, the Bible CLEARLY says "NO GRAVEN IMAGES!!" It's one of the Ten Commandments. But man, you go into a Catholic Church and you'll see all sorts of Statues of Jesus and Mary and the Saints. (My joke seeing a statue of St. Joseph at my niece's baptism, "Only my patron saint would have bought THAT story!" )

Catholicism is worse then Islime. Deniers are funy. When I was on the "volunteer-non socialist" rescue squad I recall an asshole with a pentagram carved in his chest who damn near had his leg ripped off in a bike accident." OH GOD please help me repeatedly" I asked him if he'd like me to call Ozzy to give him final passage

 

[Meriweather]

More to the point, if you take out the threats of punishment and the promises of rewards, what else do you have.

Plenty. Start by making a column of threats and punishment and then a column of everything else.

Begin with Jesus telling us we are the salt of the earth, that he is The Way into the eternal state of being. This state is entered into right here, right now and extends into eternity because it is an everlasting way of living. Jesus quoted the Old Testament on this. Love God, love one another (and as the Rabbis say, everything else in scripture is just commentary).

 

[Meriweather]

So, you got nothing, then?

As Jesus used to say, in losing all, we find everything.

 

[sparky]

Not to worry, kids, that rich guy is totally going to Hell, Jesus said. Now give our church some money!!!!

~S~

 

[Meriweather]

I go back to my fun analogy. By Christian Dogma, Jeff Dahmner is in Heaven (as he embraced Jesus and was absolved of all his sins before they brained him to death) but Ann Frank is is Hell because she rejected Jesus. This if fucked up by any measure of decency... but it's Christian Dogma.

Once again this is not Christian dogma, it is JoeB131 dogma. And you reject your own dogma--as you should.

 

[Meriweather]

the Bible CLEARLY says "NO GRAVEN IMAGES!!"

It appears your concept of a graven image is different from the Hebrew and the people's understanding of graven images in those times. A graven image was not, as we have in our time, statues or portraits of actual people. We do not believe any such portrayal carries power within it. The closest we come today of a graven image is a rabbit's foot or four leaf clover, believing they contain luck. Reference the Golden Calf. People believed in its power because a calf's (or bull's) breath was said to have healing properties/powers. Therefore, so did the image. People either had in their homes (or carried with them) these images, and they actually worshiped the images believing they had power.

(Sometimes it helps to understand the Hebrew language (and culture of the time). Very different from both our language and culture today. We do not worship statues--haven't for thousands of years. They are just art.

 

[Meriweather]

~S~

Didn't need to watch it. The nuns used to bring in George Carlin records to share with us. Good times.

 

[Gdjjr]

But isn't mine the big picture in our individual lives?

So you care only about your own interests- how christian of you and magnanimous I might add- do you think your individual life couldn't be enhanced? Your liberty actually secured for tyranny? How about others not in your little sphere of interests? Do you think their lives could be improved with more secured vs restricted liberty? Less tyranny?

 

[Gdjjr]

(Sometimes it helps to understand the Hebrew language (and culture of the time). Very different from both our language and culture today

But wait! There's more- the language is, as the Indians would say, a "shape shifter". Yet, we're asked to believe that a snake talked and two men populated the entire world, the sea parted, a boat held 2 of every species, etc., based on translation (shape shifting) that you yourself say we don't understand- how can that be?

 

[JoeB131]

The first thing to understand is that the flood was a natural disaster, not something zapped on the world by God.

A couple of problems with that. When you say, "the Flood", do you mean the world wide flood that was described in the bible specifically as an attempt to exterminate the entire human race? Because that is what is described in Genesis 6-9.

Or are you talking about local floods that occur in all history, and are probably oral tradition from the end of the last ice age?

Because if you are talking about the former, that is DEFINITELY something God supposedly did. You know, except for the lack of any evidence this happened and the 100 or so scientific impossibilities you have to explain away with magic.

Second, as it was written in hindsight, it is also interesting to see the author blaming mankind--not God--for the flood. Interwoven in the story are all the failings of a righteous man, which presents the idea the story I was written at a time and place where the author, at least, still despaired of human behavior.

Actually, you are reading too much into it. Men were evil, so God destroyed them except for his favorite floating zookeeper. So God pretty much drowned every baby in the world, not to mention all the kittens and puppies, and it didn't even accomplish what he set out to accomplish. People went RIGHT BACK to sinning and otherwise offending him.

Keep in mind, there are people out there who think that Genesis 6 is TOTAL HISTORY, and they want it taught in the schools! They put up amusement parks to it and shit.

Plenty. Start by making a column of threats and punishment and then a column of everything else.

Okay.

If you don't do what Jesus says, or you just have the bad luck of not being born a Christian, you will burn in hell forever and ever.
If you don't get your baby dipped, it goes to Limbo
If you are a kind of okay person, but not totally perfect, you end up in Purgatory, which is like Hell-lite, I suppose.

The promises0

If you are a totally good Christian, and do what the church tells you and give them a LOT of money, you get to go to heaven.

 

[Meriweather]

So you care only about your own interests- how christian of you and magnanimous I might add- do you think your individual life couldn't be enhanced? Your liberty actually secured for tyranny? How about others not in your little sphere of interests? Do you think their lives could be improved with more secured vs restricted liberty? Less tyranny?

What I care about is where I live and what I live. My family, my church, the schools where I work, my friends and community. There is nothing I can do about the people off in DC or the Vatican. They do not know me, I do not know them. I can only do what I do within the small existence of my life. Try to make a difference in the lives of people I actually touch and with whom I interact. Better than sitting home and fretting about DC, right?

With the current President at the helm, I'm a little less worried about tyranny. And...I live liberty. Every single moment, right where I am.

 

[JoeB131]

Once again this is not Christian dogma, it is JoeB131 dogma. And you reject your own dogma--as you should.

Uh, no. This is what Christians teach. They kind of have to. Because once you go down for the "eating meat on a Friday for lent", you are going to the same hell as the guy who murders 17 people and eats them.

Unless you beg God for forgiveness. Then you totally get into heaven no matter what you ate.... or who.

But man, if you don't, you go right down to Hell to burn forever.

It appears your concept of a graven image is different from the Hebrew and the people's understanding of graven images in those times. A graven image was not, as we have in our time, statues or portraits of actual people. We do not believe any such portrayal carries power within it. The closest we come today of a graven image is a rabbit's foot or four leaf clover, believing they contain luck. Reference the Golden Calf. People believed in its power because a calf's (or bull's) breath was said to have healing properties/powers. Therefore, so did the image. People either had in their homes (or carried with them) these images, and they actually worshiped the images believing they had power.

(Sometimes it helps to understand the Hebrew language (and culture of the time). Very different from both our language and culture today. We do not worship statues--haven't for thousands of years. They are just art.

Um. Okay. Our statue of the "Virgin" Mary (no, really) had a bunch of little votive candles in front of it, and if you put some money in the little box you could lite a candle for your dead relative and shit.

That sounds just as superstitious as the Golden Calf stuff.