Allowing Gays in the Military Would Be Unfair and Hurt Troop Morale

[maineman]

Civilians using their agenda to conduct military business without consulting with commanders and NCOs is the reason this current military is a cluster fart, You don't learn from anything do you?


Not to long before the Iraq war, it was said that former Army General Eric Shinseki told Donald Rumsfeld that the mission he(Rumsfeld) wanted in Iraq would require more troops and a long occupation to accomplish its old, but just like the micro-managing civilian jackass he was Rumsfeld ignored Shinseki and all the other experienced generals and forced them out of the military and did the exact opposite which created the quagmire in Iraq. After so many lost lives they ended using "surges" to solve the problem till it got so damn bad Rumsfeld had to go. Thats what happens when stupid civilians ignore officers and NCOs do what they feel is best with a set of crony "yessir" generals.


Don'tr sit up here and run off at the damn mouth about "civilian" authority over the military you retard, because if they don't cooperate in some way with those in uniform in doing assessments a debacle is imminent. Its rare that they act without taking into consideration what the troops say.

and you think that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff doesn't wear the uniform?

And you are showing what a moron you are if you think that the national military command authority takes into consideration what rank and file troops have to say about possible policy changes prior to implementation.

I believe on this matter they will listen to the rank and file. They will at least do several studies about what they think. If they don't they are being very stupid.

they may "listen" to them, but they will not let the bigotry of the rank and file alter their beliefs, any more than Truman did in 1947.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

a couple of things.

If gays arent, in the service, or they are shhh, dont be gay.

do straight service members think they wont eventually (gasp) horrible screams... meet one a.k.a. a gay person.

Its only a matter of time, before you run into one, i.e. meet one.

Gays are intertwined in the community, this isnt 1968 where they are hiding anymore.

Fact is, they could be, youre boss, your co worker, your best friend, your acquaintance, oh my god (sarcasm) they could be anywhere

i mean their not an abstract

so what are you gonna do when you meet one?

 

[dilloduck]

a couple of things.

If gays arent, in the service, or they are shhh, dont be gay.

do straight service members think they wont eventually (gasp) horrible screams... meet one a.k.a. a gay person.

Its only a matter of time, before you run into one, i.e. meet one.

Gays are intertwined in the community, this isnt 1968 where they are hiding anymore.

Fact is, they could be, youre boss, your co worker, your best friend, your acquaintance, oh my god (sarcasm) they could be anywhere

i mean their not an abstract

so what are you gonna do when you meet one?

I'm going to say " HEY MARTY ! "

 

[SFC Ollie]

a couple of things.

If gays arent, in the service, or they are shhh, dont be gay.

do straight service members think they wont eventually (gasp) horrible screams... meet one a.k.a. a gay person.

Its only a matter of time, before you run into one, i.e. meet one.

Gays are intertwined in the community, this isnt 1968 where they are hiding anymore.

Fact is, they could be, youre boss, your co worker, your best friend, your acquaintance, oh my god (sarcasm) they could be anywhere

i mean their not an abstract

so what are you gonna do when you meet one?

First off my step son is gay. Second if I would have found a gay person in the Army while I was on active duty I would have taken all the correct steps to process them out of the Army. No biggy, just follow the regulations.

 

[bodecea]

Civilians using their agenda to conduct military business without consulting with commanders and NCOs is the reason this current military is a cluster fart, You don't learn from anything do you?


Not to long before the Iraq war, it was said that former Army General Eric Shinseki told Donald Rumsfeld that the mission he(Rumsfeld) wanted in Iraq would require more troops and a long occupation to accomplish its old, but just like the micro-managing civilian jackass he was Rumsfeld ignored Shinseki and all the other experienced generals and forced them out of the military and did the exact opposite which created the quagmire in Iraq. After so many lost lives they ended using "surges" to solve the problem till it got so damn bad Rumsfeld had to go. Thats what happens when stupid civilians ignore officers and NCOs do what they feel is best with a set of crony "yessir" generals.


Don'tr sit up here and run off at the damn mouth about "civilian" authority over the military you retard, because if they don't cooperate in some way with those in uniform in doing assessments a debacle is imminent. Its rare that they act without taking into consideration what the troops say.

and you think that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff doesn't wear the uniform?

And you are showing what a moron you are if you think that the national military command authority takes into consideration what rank and file troops have to say about possible policy changes prior to implementation.

I believe on this matter they will listen to the rank and file. They will at least do several studies about what they think. If they don't they are being very stupid.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

If i may ask,

How do you feel about your stepson being gay?

a couple of things.

If gays arent, in the service, or they are shhh, dont be gay.

do straight service members think they wont eventually (gasp) horrible screams... meet one a.k.a. a gay person.

Its only a matter of time, before you run into one, i.e. meet one.

Gays are intertwined in the community, this isnt 1968 where they are hiding anymore.

Fact is, they could be, youre boss, your co worker, your best friend, your acquaintance, oh my god (sarcasm) they could be anywhere

i mean their not an abstract

so what are you gonna do when you meet one?

First off my step son is gay. Second if I would have found a gay person in the Army while I was on active duty I would have taken all the correct steps to process them out of the Army. No biggy, just follow the regulations.

 

[bodecea]

a couple of things.

If gays arent, in the service, or they are shhh, dont be gay.

do straight service members think they wont eventually (gasp) horrible screams... meet one a.k.a. a gay person.

Its only a matter of time, before you run into one, i.e. meet one.

Gays are intertwined in the community, this isnt 1968 where they are hiding anymore.

Fact is, they could be, youre boss, your co worker, your best friend, your acquaintance, oh my god (sarcasm) they could be anywhere

i mean their not an abstract

so what are you gonna do when you meet one?

First off my step son is gay. Second if I would have found a gay person in the Army while I was on active duty I would have taken all the correct steps to process them out of the Army. No biggy, just follow the regulations.

Here comes the one single anecdote again...as if it makes him an expert or something on gays in the military.

 

[SFC Ollie]

If i may ask,

How do you feel about your stepson being gay?

a couple of things.

If gays arent, in the service, or they are shhh, dont be gay.

do straight service members think they wont eventually (gasp) horrible screams... meet one a.k.a. a gay person.

Its only a matter of time, before you run into one, i.e. meet one.

Gays are intertwined in the community, this isnt 1968 where they are hiding anymore.

Fact is, they could be, youre boss, your co worker, your best friend, your acquaintance, oh my god (sarcasm) they could be anywhere

i mean their not an abstract

so what are you gonna do when you meet one?

First off my step son is gay. Second if I would have found a gay person in the Army while I was on active duty I would have taken all the correct steps to process them out of the Army. No biggy, just follow the regulations.

He's an idiot, I do not approve and he knows that. However, that did not prevent me from giving him and his partner(at the time) a room to live in when they were down and out. they lived here for about 6 months. And we lived with him and his previous partner for about 3 weeks when I first retired from the Army. By the way he agrees that gays should not serve.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

well. I think that is very kind of you to have helped them

I have seen many cases of people who disapprove kicking their kids out when they came out, disowning them, etc

atleast you seem tolerant.

I can respect your views, I just dont agree

hope thats ok with you

If i may ask,

How do you feel about your stepson being gay?

First off my step son is gay. Second if I would have found a gay person in the Army while I was on active duty I would have taken all the correct steps to process them out of the Army. No biggy, just follow the regulations.

He's an idiot, I do not approve and he knows that. However, that did not prevent me from giving him and his partner(at the time) a room to live in when they were down and out. they lived here for about 6 months. And we lived with him and his previous partner for about 3 weeks when I first retired from the Army. By the way he agrees that gays should not serve.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

personally, I think verbally attacking people who disagree with our views is counter-productive, I think its actually mean-spirited and intolerant to question peoples sexuality simply for not agreeing with us, or calling them names.

With that said, im not telling anyone what to do or how to conduct their business

just sharing a thought

 

[Flaylo]

personally, I think verbally attacking people who disagree with our views is counter-productive, I think its actually mean-spirited and intolerant to question peoples sexuality simply for not agreeing with us, or calling them names.

With that said, im not telling anyone what to do or how to conduct their business

just sharing a thought

Well said!

 

[Flaylo]

If they were REALLY ALPHA MALES, they wouldn't give a damn.

It's you boys who aren't quite sure of your own hetero instincts who are homophoboic morons.

You don't have the right to question my sexuality and I'm more than secure enough in my own heterosexual instincts. If homosexuals were really dedicated about serving their country they wouldn't put so much of an emphasis on DADT.

We have as much right to question your sexuality as you have questioning our right to serve.

Speaking of which...what if you ARE accused of being gay in the military. Are you prepared to be hoisted on your own petard if someone makes such an accusation?

I don't question anyone's sexuality and sure as hell don't need to question the sexuality of those who states and or desires to state what they are.

You're accusing me of being gay, well, you would be up for sexual harrassment charges for spreading a lie and rumor because an investigation would reveal your allegations to be baseless and false. The only people discharged under DADT are those who admit they're gay and or have credible and verifiable evidence against them, it isn't as simple as saying someone is gay and then they're discharged, he who makes the claim had better have evidence to back it up because if one of my soldiers made false allegations I would counsel them and recommend the maximum punishment allowed with a letter of reprimand. Why would I do that? I've seen plenty of soldiers have their name soiled and their careers nearly derailed because of false accusations and such things disrupt unit cohesion and create hostile work environments.

 

[Flaylo]

No one in the Army is allowed to publicly discuss their sex life, especially when it involves people in their unit, that also destroys unit cohesion and its unprofessional. Whatever soldiers discuss privately among themselves is another matter.

Life in the Army is not going to be fair to some people but thats just the way it is, you either adapt and obey or move out.

It is statements like that that make me seriously wonder if you are really in the military.

I mean....really.

According to him he's "all business" in the Army

I am all business and thats whats lacking in the Army and in the military today, being professional and being about business. When I was a Drill Sergeant on the trail it was my job to train and acclimate joes to the Army on the basics of how the Army works. In order to teach it I have to be the example because the Drill Sergeant is first real authorative figure IET soldiers are going to encounter. If we don't train them right according to the standards we're simply passing on undisciplined soldiers on to NCOs in permanent party units who are going to turn out to be problem soldiers. I became a Drill Sergeant for this reason, to properly weed out those who don't belong discharging them or breaking them down and building them up and to mold good soldiers out of those that do belong. Thats not an easy duty.


Most Drill Sergeants, current and former, are all about business have some of the highest standards od any soldiers.

 

[bodecea]

You don't have the right to question my sexuality and I'm more than secure enough in my own heterosexual instincts. If homosexuals were really dedicated about serving their country they wouldn't put so much of an emphasis on DADT.

We have as much right to question your sexuality as you have questioning our right to serve.

Speaking of which...what if you ARE accused of being gay in the military. Are you prepared to be hoisted on your own petard if someone makes such an accusation?

I don't question anyone's sexuality and sure as hell don't need to question the sexuality of those who states and or desires to state what they are.

You're accusing me of being gay, well

I am? Where? Where?

, you would be up for sexual harrassment charges for spreading a lie and rumor because an investigation would reveal your allegations to be baseless and false. The only people discharged under DADT are those who admit they're gay and or have credible and verifiable evidence against them,

Are you sure you know anything about the military and how it works? Accusations for whatever reason are always enough for an investigation by the NCIS...read up on the USS Norton Sound incident and the USS Iowa explosion incident. A STRAIGHT sailor's reputation was completely dragged thru the mud because the NCIS (NIS back then) wanted to find something, anything to blame that accident on rather than mechanical failure.

[quoet] it isn't as simple as saying someone is gay and then they're discharged,

It used to be.

he who makes the claim had better have evidence to back it up because if one of my soldiers made false allegations I would counsel them and recommend the maximum punishment allowed with a letter of reprimand. Why would I do that? I've seen plenty of soldiers have their name soiled and their careers nearly derailed because of false accusations and such things disrupt unit cohesion and create hostile work environments.

In a perfect environment...however, when it comes to the military and investigations, it is not a perfect world...far from it.

Again...look up the USS Norton Sound incident.

 

[bodecea]

It is statements like that that make me seriously wonder if you are really in the military.

I mean....really.

According to him he's "all business" in the Army

I am all business and thats whats lacking in the Army and in the military today, being professional and being about business. When I was a Drill Sergeant on the trail it was my job to train and acclimate joes to the Army on the basics of how the Army works. In order to teach it I have to be the example because the Drill Sergeant is first real authorative figure IET soldiers are going to encounter. If we don't train them right according to the standards we're simply passing on undisciplined soldiers on to NCOs in permanent party units who are going to turn out to be problem soldiers. I became a Drill Sergeant for this reason, to properly weed out those who don't belong discharging them or breaking them down and building them up and to mold good soldiers out of those that do belong. Thats not an easy duty.


Most Drill Sergeants, current and former, are all about business have some of the highest standards od any soldiers.

Uh Huh.....

 

[SFC Ollie]

It is statements like that that make me seriously wonder if you are really in the military.

I mean....really.

According to him he's "all business" in the Army

I am all business and thats whats lacking in the Army and in the military today, being professional and being about business. When I was a Drill Sergeant on the trail it was my job to train and acclimate joes to the Army on the basics of how the Army works. In order to teach it I have to be the example because the Drill Sergeant is first real authorative figure IET soldiers are going to encounter. If we don't train them right according to the standards we're simply passing on undisciplined soldiers on to NCOs in permanent party units who are going to turn out to be problem soldiers. I became a Drill Sergeant for this reason, to properly weed out those who don't belong discharging them or breaking them down and building them up and to mold good soldiers out of those that do belong. Thats not an easy duty.


Most Drill Sergeants, current and former, are all about business have some of the highest standards od any soldiers.

So very true. My last duty station I was the Operations Sergeant for a training company and the Senior instructor at one of the Signal courses. I had 6 Drills working for me at the company. And they were all business and all professional, one had just finished (4 years I believe) at the old guard, walking the walk. I had the utmost respect for that Sergeant. I plan on going to Arlington later this summer to sort of do a pilgrimage.

 

[Flaylo]

According to him he's "all business" in the Army

I am all business and thats whats lacking in the Army and in the military today, being professional and being about business. When I was a Drill Sergeant on the trail it was my job to train and acclimate joes to the Army on the basics of how the Army works. In order to teach it I have to be the example because the Drill Sergeant is first real authorative figure IET soldiers are going to encounter. If we don't train them right according to the standards we're simply passing on undisciplined soldiers on to NCOs in permanent party units who are going to turn out to be problem soldiers. I became a Drill Sergeant for this reason, to properly weed out those who don't belong discharging them or breaking them down and building them up and to mold good soldiers out of those that do belong. Thats not an easy duty.


Most Drill Sergeants, current and former, are all about business have some of the highest standards od any soldiers.

So very true. My last duty station I was the Operations Sergeant for a training company and the Senior instructor at one of the Signal courses. I had 6 Drills working for me at the company. And they were all business and all professional, one had just finished (4 years I believe) at the old guard, walking the walk. I had the utmost respect for that Sergeant. I plan on going to Arlington later this summer to sort of do a pilgrimage.

Some of the posters in here don't know anything about the Army. Most soldiers when they see a Drill Sergeant badge on a uniform know they're dealing with an NCO who has high standards and a lot of professionalism because its impossible for a NCO to even into Drill Sergeant school without those high standards and professionalism. Most of us Drills take the "hard but fair" approach with our soldiers. In 82nd we lived those standards, it wasn't until I left 82nd that I saw an entirely different Army that I had to adapt to.

 

[Flaylo]

According to him he's "all business" in the Army

I am all business and thats whats lacking in the Army and in the military today, being professional and being about business. When I was a Drill Sergeant on the trail it was my job to train and acclimate joes to the Army on the basics of how the Army works. In order to teach it I have to be the example because the Drill Sergeant is first real authorative figure IET soldiers are going to encounter. If we don't train them right according to the standards we're simply passing on undisciplined soldiers on to NCOs in permanent party units who are going to turn out to be problem soldiers. I became a Drill Sergeant for this reason, to properly weed out those who don't belong discharging them or breaking them down and building them up and to mold good soldiers out of those that do belong. Thats not an easy duty.


Most Drill Sergeants, current and former, are all about business have some of the highest standards od any soldiers.

Uh Huh.....

You don't know a thing about Drill Sergeants, whatever you see on TV is not what we're about. Smoking soldiers with push-ups and grass drills(Front.....Back.....GO!!!) is a waste of time and we only do just enough of that stuff to get those IET soldiers online and dress-right-dress with teamwork. If I was still on the trail and I just might go back come to think of it, I'd do the same things all over again.

 

[Flaylo]

We have as much right to question your sexuality as you have questioning our right to serve.

Speaking of which...what if you ARE accused of being gay in the military. Are you prepared to be hoisted on your own petard if someone makes such an accusation?

I don't question anyone's sexuality and sure as hell don't need to question the sexuality of those who states and or desires to state what they are.

You're accusing me of being gay, well

I am? Where? Where?

Are you sure you know anything about the military and how it works? Accusations for whatever reason are always enough for an investigation by the NCIS...read up on the USS Norton Sound incident and the USS Iowa explosion incident. A STRAIGHT sailor's reputation was completely dragged thru the mud because the NCIS (NIS back then) wanted to find something, anything to blame that accident on rather than mechanical failure.

[quoet] it isn't as simple as saying someone is gay and then they're discharged,

It used to be.

he who makes the claim had better have evidence to back it up because if one of my soldiers made false allegations I would counsel them and recommend the maximum punishment allowed with a letter of reprimand. Why would I do that? I've seen plenty of soldiers have their name soiled and their careers nearly derailed because of false accusations and such things disrupt unit cohesion and create hostile work environments.

In a perfect environment...however, when it comes to the military and investigations, it is not a perfect world...far from it.

Again...look up the USS Norton Sound incident.

You're hard of hearing. Discharging someone for violating DADT is not simple and easy, the claims and allegations have to be substantiated, its not as easy as someone making the accusation against another and the person gets discharged, I'm not going to waste any more time telling you this because you're not in the military and don't understand how the system works. Every allegation of being gay is investigated because a lot of those claims are either rumors or some soldiers use it to get out of the Army when they're not really gay. The process is complicated.

 

[bodecea]

I don't question anyone's sexuality and sure as hell don't need to question the sexuality of those who states and or desires to state what they are.

You're accusing me of being gay, well

I am? Where? Where?



It used to be.

he who makes the claim had better have evidence to back it up because if one of my soldiers made false allegations I would counsel them and recommend the maximum punishment allowed with a letter of reprimand. Why would I do that? I've seen plenty of soldiers have their name soiled and their careers nearly derailed because of false accusations and such things disrupt unit cohesion and create hostile work environments.

In a perfect environment...however, when it comes to the military and investigations, it is not a perfect world...far from it.

Again...look up the USS Norton Sound incident.

You're hard of hearing. Discharging someone for violating DADT is not simple and easy, the claims and allegations have to be substantiated, its not as easy as someone making the accusation against another and the person gets discharged, I'm not going to waste any more time telling you this because you're not in the military and don't understand how the system works. Every allegation of being gay is investigated because a lot of those claims are either rumors or some soldiers use it to get out of the Army when they're not really gay. The process is complicated.

You're right...I'm not in the military....any more.

I'm RETIRED Military and during my TWENTY ONE YEAR career I was a Personnel Officer, Admin Officer, Maintenance Officer, LEGAL Officer, Tactical Operations Officer, Command and Control Officer, Executive Officer, Officer in Charge.....all while being a Naval Aviator.


Of course.....I know nothing about the military.....

If....and "if"...you were a drill instructor, you would have called me "Ma'am".