rylah
Gold Member
- Jun 10, 2015
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You talk absurdly about “the law,” when in fact on State and Federal levels there is a wide-ranging campaign to destroy BDS and isolate and punish BDS advocates, and that campaign (pushed in state legislatures and everywhere by right wing Zionists) is being widely opposed on civil liberties, libertarian and Constitutional grounds. There are some 30 present state anti-BDS laws, plus Federal Congressional resolutions, and presidential executive orders now in effect. There have been hundreds of these assaults and the majority have been already defeated in the courts or legislatures. These encompass different kinds of assaults on the right to boycott, advocate, or render aid, on behalf of Palestinian rights or opposed to Israeli expansion.That's what BDS want you to believe,
but not what the law actually says.
An idea of the amazing extent of the anti-BDS legal offensive can be found here: Home - Legislation
Of course I am not in agreement with the politics of every member of BDS, nor with all the policies of the present leadership of the main international BDS organization, but I most definitely support targeted BDS efforts focused on Israeli operations in the Occupied Territories.
You want to treat all supporters of BDS and Palestinian rights as ignorant fools or simple anti-Semites who “raise a genocidal call” and “want to eliminate a [Jewish] minority and their state” — a position than hides the reality of Palestinian oppression in an expanding, powerful, U.S-backed, nuclear armed Jewish state, which is moreover today in alliance with reactionary Arab Gulf Oil monarchs and U.S. imperialism in the Middle East.
But don't you think you come from a very one sided perspective?
For example, instead of actually adressing the genocidal calls against the Jewish nation,
you shower me with talking points about left vs right and how you "don't agree with everything", and how it's me who is wrong for "treating you" unfairly for asking this,
rather than, you know, supporting folks who openly call to eliminate my nation.
Seriously how can we have a discussion if you can't adress this.
And I'm not saying there aren't like another 100 themes on this that we can argue endlessly
So why do we put all the slogans aside, and talk like normal people?
Because, what do you want? To boycott me, I basically don't care, you know life and stuff...
And frankly I never though my knowledge or opinions on any foreign conflict were of relevance to go out and boycott someone.
However we were talking, and it was reasonable to raise those questions I've raised. Becaused most of our disagreement, and the action taken against BDS, I think, is because there's are demonstratively an unwilling in any way seriously address these genocidal calls,
racist blood libels, harassment on campuses, incitement to violence...
So tell me do you think it's a good cause? I know and yes repect that you may disagree on 10000 and 1 issue regarding how Israelis conduct things, we Israelis critique that day and night, but for someone who would sincerely want to just boycott beleiving this may cause a political change, not elimination of a state or pretentiously promote further conflict,
is all this BDS bigotry recquired?
In my opinion, if a person wants to boycott my state he's not prevented in any way,
but a state is not obliged to fund such organizations, and it's appropriate.
If there was a simillar radical anti-American or anti-UAE organization spreading bloodlibels and inciting to violence against you and them in Israel, I would expect that to be outlawed.
I like this response, rylah . There are, as you say, many other issues we could discuss, including “blood libels” and anti-Semitism, and of course all aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian problem.
There are, too, differences between the Palestinian-led international BDS movement and local, including American BDS chapters with many liberal Jewish members. I surely would agree with you to one extent or another on many issues, and disagree with PF Tinmore, though I haven’t read any of his many older comments.
Forgive me, but I really am not interested in participating here in a wide ranging discussion. The larger issues have been wrestled with by smarter and more knowledgeable people than I for decades, and as I have indicated the Palestinian cause is weaker than ever, and Israel stronger than ever.
In general I feel that the whole Zionist endeavor — and the Arab reaction to it — has had catastrophic impact on most of the peoples in this part of the world. This is not a judgement on Jewish people or their absolutely understandable desire for a homeland and nation of their own. But it is a tragic reality. Of course imperialism and the “curse of oil,” as well as many other historical factors unrelated to Israel went into creating tragic Middle Eastern wars, civil wars, failed states, failed Arab nationalist and mad theocratic movements.
My polemical tone against you was narrowly focused, which I think you now realize. You still may disagree with me, but I think my position is clear and correct. I have written angrily elsewhere in USMB against what I consider the even more outrageous pro-Israel (and basically pro-imperialist) “anti-anti-Semitism” campaign against Corbyn and the Labour Party “left” in Great Britain.
We may have occasion to argue over many Israeli and Middle East policy questions in the future. There are far too many such issues to discuss here and now, as I’m sure you will agree.
Yes, I'd rather have a more casual debate with people,
than engage with talking agendas and mindless slogans.
Wasn't that what was exciting about the inet in the beginning, that there were real people,
if a guy in late 80's Milwaukee happened to catch up with a Soviet scientist on some university network, it wasn't Capitalism and Communism that they were discussing...
Anyway, no I disagree.
You say you don't want to discuss different issues but each time come back with new comments and assertions, instead of actually addressing what I've been saying.
So what is it? What is left?
If to boycott Israel is your personal choice, no one is gonna check what brand of Tahinah is in your fridge, or force You buy Israeli, so why the need to twist it that anti-BDS laws infringe on personal rights when they actually deal with contractors and state funds, is it because BDS cares about anyones personal right to boycott, or because they simply don't want others to have that choice?
As for Your 'feel' about the Arab-Israel conflict, that is understandable,
despite its actual magnitude, it has drawn a disproportionate attention from the world community, as sort of a convenient scapegoat for all the regional, if not cosmic problems.
But I prefer facts, which BDS demonstratively despises.
Ever asked why all their 'historic" narrative starts always in the middle of the conflict,
at the point almost 80 into Zionism? And not a day before?
Because people might find out that no Zionist ever shot a bullet before the Arab pogroms,
In fact the whole Zionist organization was initiated in response to the murder and expulsion of the Jewish community from all the holy cities in Israel, the infamous Damascus Affair and the following Arab pogroms throughout the Caliphate.
So if You want to talk about the Arab reaction to Zionism, You cannot ignore their part in initiating the endeavor. That reaction remained violent to large extent, but doesn't serve as an evaluation much in of its own, it's a violent society, and we're talking about a bunch of former dhimmis regaining sovereignty, the only non-Muslim country in the entire middle east.
As for 'the devastation', again let's look at the facts:
despite the image created by the media, it's the least devastating conflict in the region.
There're cities in the US with homicide rate higher in a decade than the casualties in all the 70+ years of the Arab-Israeli conflict combined, on both sides.
And I can actually argue the opposite of what You say with ease.
First of all Israel is a success story, for Israelis, and even for the average Palestinian Arabs,
who live under Hamas or PA, if You actually look how they lived before Zionism, and I'm not talking about the Ottoman bourguisee who lost their feudal status.
Despite the propaganda image, Palestinian Arabs are firm middle class of the Arab world,
not UAE and Saudia of course, but much better than the average Egyptian, and certainly above that of the neighbors. But that's their Arab neighbors, what will You say,
when You actually drive around a day or two and find out that Israeli Arabs
and Palestinian Arabs maybe have different licence plates, but usually stand out by having the sports cars and mensions that the average Israeli Jew usually doesn't even dream about,
so there's a reason Arabs call them "Cream Arabs"... not only Israeli Arabs dominate large chuncks of the Israeli economy and actively participate in the startup industry,
but so in their footseps are walking many young who live under PA and Hamas.
But that's locally, however as with IT as just one of the examples,
there's a whole civilizational alternative to the stagnation of the Arab world.
Success draws interest, and these people, despite their opinion or side in the conflict, actually serve as inspiration to the young Arab generation, despite the violent aspects of the conflict through this interaction with what You've called 'the Zionist endeavor' to excell and compete in entirely new fields of interest that otherwise would be prevented, or at least widely discouraged by the state of the things in the Arab civilization.
I think You're confusing Zionism with British policy, which at times was pro-Zionist,
and at times pro-Arab. Both sides will tell You Brits served the otherand betrayed them,
because Brits served their own interests, but it is much easier to sell two dimensional agenda.
But that's jut the Arab civilization, look around the middle east, and with all the conflict stupidity of Israeli politics, do You see any worthwhile alternative for the middle east?
Anything around that even comes close to providing the same quality of life?
I know that not having other alternatives is not the best argument for anything to follow,
but then again Israel is the 11th happiest society in the world, not just the region.
But it also, You know, the only example of dhimmis gaining sovereignty,
an inspiration for many forgotten minorities in the middle east seeking for independence or protection from the Arab Muslim yoke as they were stuck together without distinction inside ridiculous ruler drawn borders as tuna fish by the Brits and the French, but don't interest the world...if half the energy spent on the noise about Palestinian Arabs was spent on talking about Kurds, they'd be independent 10 years ago, because they mean what they say,
why Israelis choose tp fight with them on their side when can,
and support in all possible seen and unseen ways when can't.
Ok, ok You said You didn't want to discuss all these different things...ok.
Then just answer this question, which I asked Tinmore as well,
think it sums up pretty much everything in BDS narrative,
because clearly, the goal is to eliminate Israel,
not to cause it to change,
and boycott a minority.
Q. Is there a reason why Arabs deserve to dominate the entire middle east
at the expense of all invovled?
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