AIPAC Is the Only Explanation for America's Morally Bankrupt Israel Policy

In the meantime you support killing the kids. I getcha.
Nope.

I support the destruction of Hamas war-making capability at all costs.

Big difference.

Had I been alive at the time, I would have also supported the area bombing of Nazi German factories and military installations, even in cases wherein they were embedded within civilian residential areas.

Had the Allies not bombed regardless, Europe will still be under the heel of the Nazis.

Very same idea here.
 
Oh, give it a frigging rest, Monty.

1. there is no 'murder' on the part of the IDF, in connection with this new Gaza War

2. Hamas is to blame for embedding war-assets amongst it civilian population

3. nobody in America has been brainwashed in connection with Israel and Palestine

4. it is not racist to seek the extermination of a terrorist organization nor its members

5. Americans with common sense can see right through your propaganda efforts

1. Of course it's murder. ...
Incorrect.


If Hamas moved its war-assets away from heavily populated civilian residential areas, and if Hamas would stop using schools and mosques and hospitals and civilian bomb shelters, as storage caches for weapons and munitions, and as command posts and firing-points and gun and launcher emplacements and troop shelters, then there would be far fewer Gazan civilian casualties. Hamas is infamous around the world for their widespread use of their own women and children as human shields, and there is enough documentation on this subject to choke a horse.


Again, incorrect. And repeating it over and over does not render it thus.

If you have substantive evidence of large-scale intentional targeting of civilians, from credible and objective neutral sources, then, by all means, present it here, for the edification of the entire audience.

If not, then, your claim of murder must be set aside with prejudice; to be revisited only at such time as you manage to satisfy preliminary evidence requirements along those lines.


There isn't an ounce of Orwellian double-talk in either this particular refutation nor my post immediately preceding this one, in this sequence. You are welcome to serve-up any such text along with your rationale for labeling it thus, but, until then...


Who is doing this brainwashing, pray tell?


We can safely write-off that portion of the world within the domain of Islam as possessing an embedded and permanent hatred for the Jews and Israel.

Europe is a mixed bag... with Germany and France containing the highest percentages of anti-Muslim / pro-Israeli citizens... and with the UK oscillating between the two at the popular level and towards Israel on the official level.

That accounts for the lion's share of European countries worth considering in this context.

The pragmatic Russians and Chinese blow hot and cold depending upon the day and what side of the bed they got up on that morning.

Most of the rest of the world doesn't much care on either an official nor popular level, to any extent sufficient to be taken into account in this context.

And, push comes to shove, beyond the realm of Islam, in any Final Showdown between Israel and the Palestinians (especially Hamas), under circumstances where it cannot be stopped and one must choose sides, most will choose Israel in a heartbeat.

I do not share your perspective on world opinion directed at Israel, not its impact nor prospects.


If it looks like a duck and smells like a duck and waddles like a duck and shits like a duck and quacks like a duck, there's a decent chance that it's a duck.

If it looks like a terrorist and smells like a terrorist...

Or so says the US Department of State, the EU, et al . I'll keep my own counsel, and side with them, in the matter of whom should and should not be labeled as 'terrorists'.

...Like the Muhajedin in Afghanistan who were freedom fighters when fighting the Russians and became terrorists when fighting NATO...
When guerrilla warfare or asymmetric warfare organizations cease their guerrilla and asymmetrical warfare operations and switch to generalized terror operations, they cease being freedom (or any other kind of) fighters, and become terrorists.

This idea of change of status or modus operandi and revisions to labeling is not a difficult one to grasp.

...5. I have seen through the propaganda, it is and your type that have bought the propaganda.
How nice for you.

Feel free to continue believing that your distrust of government labeling of terrorists is operative in any real sense, and that everyone who opposes your viewpoint on such labeling must be enthralled by those same polities and their brainwashing.

It's a gross inaccuracy, bordering on the delusional, but if that's what gets you through the day, in this context, then who am I to burst your bubble and bring you back to Reality in such matters? Enjoy the vision.

Outside of Americans and Israelis, no one believes the propaganda you buy into. That is why in every international poll Israel is one of the least liked countries, along with North Korea and the like. Puts your brainwashing into perspective.

"only countries less popular than Israel are North Korea, Pakistan and Iran.
By Haaretz | May 25, 2013 | 5:24 PM | 148"

BBC poll: Israel among world's least popular nations - World Israel News | Haaretz
 
...Outside of Americans and Israelis, no one believes the propaganda you buy into...
What you call 'brainwashing' is merely a firm commitment and sense of responsibility to support a deserving friend and long-term ally.

...That is why in every international poll Israel is one of the least liked countries, along with North Korea and the like. Puts your brainwashing into perspective...
No other country in the world championed the Jews in the way we did at the close of WWII, owing largely to (1) the exhaustion and devastation in those countries, and (2) traditional anti-semitism in same.

We merely continue that honorable tradition; the one nation in the world willing to stand by them, when push comes to shove.

We also have a tradition of not following the herd, as much of the rest of the world does, when it's not busy kissing Arab ass, in order to get a few more drops of oil.

In any event, we've got Israel's back, when it's crunch-time, even with questionable leadership like the Obumble team sitting in the White House.

Close enough.
 
We merely continue that honorable tradition

Of helping Israelis steal land and murder children.
 
We also have a tradition of not following the herd, as much of the rest of the world does

Never failing do do the wrong thing, unfortunately.
 
...We also have a tradition of not following the herd, as much of the rest of the world does.
Never failing do do the wrong thing, unfortunately.
Monty, your Lost 60s Generation nihilism and self-flagellation never ceases to amaze and amuse. To this day, after several decades of playing World Policeman, we still do far more Right than Wrong, and, in this instance, we're absolutely on the right path in this.
 
Last edited:
We merely continue that honorable tradition

Of helping Israelis steal land...
Of helping them to stabilize a land mass with defensible borders, to allow them to persist.

Although, in the past 20 years or so, it seems likely that we've given up on any sort of accommodation for the Palestinians, and have washed our hands of concern for land-grabs since Intifada I.

...and murder children.
We do no such thing.

Because they do no such thing.

Unless you have substantive evidence to the contrary, to serve-up to the audience.
 
Last edited:
In the meantime you support killing the kids.

I getcha.
We do no such thing.

Because they do no such thing.

Unless you have substantive evidence to the contrary, to serve-up to the audience.


Loads of evidence Kondor. And your defence is the Shaggy defence. Which is transparent to anyone watching.
 
Last edited:
The casus belli du jour is far less important than the fact that Hamas is getting its ass kicked, and that the Israelis seem poised to finish off Hamas this time. All else is background noise.

So, though the West Bank Palestinians are also dying, accusing the PA of being collaborators you think Israel will eliminate Hamas. Hamas will come out of this more popular than before, and that is a shame, but Israel's fault.
Even the Hydra could be killed, given sufficient cunning and courage, which the Israelis possess in great quantity. . .
. . . along with American taxpayers' money!

The U.S. has paid for most of the Iron Dome development (nearly $800 million), in addition to the $6.5 million we give to Israel every day, in addition to other forms of military aid.

The question I have is -- WHY! Why do we permit AIPAC to lobby our Congress?
 
In the meantime you support killing the kids.

I getcha.
We do no such thing.

Because they do no such thing.

Unless you have substantive evidence to the contrary, to serve-up to the audience.

Loads of evidence Kondor. And your defence is the Shaggy defence. Which is transparent to anyone watching.
Then it should be easy, to locate and serve-up substantive, credible evidence, from an objective and neutral source, which is strongly indicative of 'murder' (as opposed to collateral casualties resulting from military operations) occurring during this latest Gaza War.

Tag... you're "it".
 
Okie lets talk about CAIR..oh - Terrorists.
 
So, though the West Bank Palestinians are also dying, accusing the PA of being collaborators you think Israel will eliminate Hamas. Hamas will come out of this more popular than before, and that is a shame, but Israel's fault.
Even the Hydra could be killed, given sufficient cunning and courage, which the Israelis possess in great quantity. . .
. . . along with American taxpayers' money!

The U.S. has paid for most of the Iron Dome development (nearly $800 million), in addition to the $6.5 million we give to Israel every day, in addition to other forms of military aid...
Your numbers may be just a wee bit off (it's even more on a daily basis) but getting a little historical perspective may be of some use here, as well as keeping in mind that we dole-out substantial amounts to Egypt and Jordan, as well...

800px-US_aid_to_Israel.gif


Israel?United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...The question I have is -- WHY! Why do we permit AIPAC to lobby our Congress?
If you're proposing that we shut down all lobbying of Congress, it would be an improvement.

If you're proposing that we shut down all lobbying that pertains primarily to foreign interests, that would be an improvement as well.

If you're proposing that we shut down the pro-Israel lobby and leave the rest standing on their feet, well... not so much.
 
Last edited:
So, though the West Bank Palestinians are also dying, accusing the PA of being collaborators you think Israel will eliminate Hamas. Hamas will come out of this more popular than before, and that is a shame, but Israel's fault.
Even the Hydra could be killed, given sufficient cunning and courage, which the Israelis possess in great quantity. . .
. . . along with American taxpayers' money!
Oh, the proverbial "american taxpayer". As commonplace as the palistanian "civilian women" and "civilian children", of course.
The U.S. has paid for most of the Iron Dome development (nearly $800 million), in addition to the $6.5 million we give to Israel every day, in addition to other forms of military aid.
Maintaining the dollar as the world's reserve currency, doesn't come cheap, of course.
The question I have is -- WHY! Why do we permit AIPAC to lobby our Congress?
The saudi lobby has to have some competition, no? heheh
 
We do no such thing.

Because they do no such thing.

Unless you have substantive evidence to the contrary, to serve-up to the audience.

Loads of evidence Kondor. And your defence is the Shaggy defence. Which is transparent to anyone watching.
Then it should be easy, to locate and serve-up substantive, credible evidence, from an objective and neutral source, which is strongly indicative of 'murder' (as opposed to collateral casualties resulting from military operations) occurring during this latest Gaza War.

Tag... you're "it".

Three confess to murdering and burning Palestinian boy, say police - Telegraph
 
Loads of evidence Kondor. And your defence is the Shaggy defence. Which is transparent to anyone watching.
Then it should be easy, to locate and serve-up substantive, credible evidence, from an objective and neutral source, which is strongly indicative of 'murder' (as opposed to collateral casualties resulting from military operations) occurring during this latest Gaza War.

Tag... you're "it".

Three confess to murdering and burning Palestinian boy, say police - Telegraph
Oh, hell, and here I thought you were going to serve-up something about the Israeli Defense Force, murdering Palestinian kids, during the course of this war to-date (which was the context in which we were discussing the possibility of 'murder')...

Shall we just skip to the end of the song and say that you don't have any?
wink_smile.gif
 
Last edited:
Then it should be easy, to locate and serve-up substantive, credible evidence, from an objective and neutral source, which is strongly indicative of 'murder' (as opposed to collateral casualties resulting from military operations) occurring during this latest Gaza War.

Tag... you're "it".

Three confess to murdering and burning Palestinian boy, say police - Telegraph
Oh, hell, and here I thought you were going to serve-up something about the Israeli Defense Force, murdering Palestinian kids, during the course of this war to-date (which was the context in which we were discussing the possibility of 'murder')...

Shall we just skip to the end of the song and say that you don't have any?
wink_smile.gif

However these terrorists are going to sit in jail, unlike in Gaza where they would be rewarded with 25,000$ and a house.
 
Then it should be easy, to locate and serve-up substantive, credible evidence, from an objective and neutral source, which is strongly indicative of 'murder' (as opposed to collateral casualties resulting from military operations) occurring during this latest Gaza War.

Tag... you're "it".

Three confess to murdering and burning Palestinian boy, say police - Telegraph
Oh, hell, and here I thought you were going to serve-up something about the Israeli Defense Force, murdering Palestinian kids, during the course of this war to-date (which was the context in which we were discussing the possibility of 'murder')...

Shall we just skip to the end of the song and say that you don't have any?
wink_smile.gif

How doesn't that fit the criteria you set then?

Come on. Amuse us.
 
AIPAC Is the Only Explanation for America's Morally Bankrupt Israel Policy*|*Stephen M. Walt

Given Netanyahu's personal commitment to keeping the West Bank and creating a "greater Israel," the last thing he wants is a unified Palestinian leadership that might press him to get serious about a two-state solution. Ergo, he sought to isolate and severely damage Hamas and drive a new wedge between the two Palestinian factions.
Which is why I think he is making a mistake. Netanyahu should not be working to isolate or damage Hamas.

He should be all out working on exterminating them. He is already pretty close. My money is that he'll go spineless and back off, thereby ensuring that this conflict will continue on for another 60 years.
 
How doesn't that fit the criteria you set then? Come on. Amuse us.
The exchange between Monty and I, beginning with Post No. 27, focused upon allegations of the IDF 'murdering' Palestinian children, rather than them simply being collateral casualties.

I ask you for evidence in support of that allegation (once you had jumped into the conversation), and you serve-up references to a single incident of Israeli civilians perpetrating a savage and lethal hate-crime against a Palestinian teenager.

I look for you to show us solid evidence of IDF targeting of children during the present campaign.

You give us a civilian crime that occurred before this mess truly even began.

Rather like asking to see a Lexus...

And being shown a Ringling Brothers clown-car...

Different critters...

Consequently, I'll assume that (a) you did not fully understand the context for 'murder' throughout that exchange, prior to your participation, or (b) you understood (or understand) but have nothing to back it up, after all. If there's a (c) in there somewhere, feel free to serve that up, as well.
 
Do you really need more than the beach incident?
Eyewitness reports of the artillery chasing them up the beach in broad daylight, while the IDF has
state of the art imaging equipment, plus drones of every size and precision munitions.

Well, as it takes years for the IDF to agree to their people committing a crime, I do wonder who's report you will take as "substantive evidence".

Seems to me it is right there on the thread, with every denial possible put against it, but there is the substantive evidence.

The UN certainly thinks so. Though the US opposes it (of course) they are really keen to put Israel up on war crimes charges. Like a desperate criminal Israel is trying to get off on technicalities.
 
Back
Top Bottom