Absolutely disgusting! US cluster munitions targets civilians in Sevastopol

[Deadstick]

NATO-Ukraine Action Plan and had committed themselves to signing a NATO
Membership Action Plan by the end of 2006. Prime Minister Yanukovych and
his cabinet have radically altered that policy. During a visit to Brussels in Sep-
tember 2006, Prime Minister Yanukovych stated that Ukraine was not yet ready
to implement a formal plan for NATO membership; instead, Ukraine would fo-
cus on deepening its partnership with the alliance. 35
CASTING A SHADOW: THE EFFECT ON NEIGHBORS

This is why the US staged a coup in Ukraine, it was always about Nato moving in.

 

[forkup]

So when did the former Yugoslavia attack a Nato Country? when did Libya? Nato is just a foreign legion for the US Imperialists, if you look at the member States most were also members of Hitlers Foreign legions in Europe including the SS.

Yugoslavia wasa UN Mission not NATO. Libya was the US working unilaterally. Article 5 of the NATO charter was invoked precisely one time. After 9/11.

 

[forkup]

No armed rebellion was funded, after the Donbas refused to accept the elected Government in Ukraine being overthrown with outside help they were attacked by their own army, that's just a fact, policemen and civilians were killed in Mariupol by those Azov goons and Ukrainian military because they refused to go along with the coup.

Lol I love these "alternative facts" discussion. READ A MAP. The Crimea, let alone the Donbas are Ukrainian territory. Meaning Russia invaded those territories.

I don't care if Russia doesn't look at it that way. I know who invaded who. And using Ukraine's opposition to that fact as somehow justifying an invasion of the entire country is mendaciously conflating cause with effect.

 

[krichton]

Negotiating peace does not make one a communist sympathizer

~S~

Who's the one negotiating?

True, but here we're the aggressor fork......~S~

I missed the part where we're fighting in Ukraine.

 

[krichton]

There was also a time when we talked softly and carried a big stick and mostly left other countries alone. Now all we do is talk shit with a sawed off shotgun and act like a meth head looking for the next hit.

Yes, and look at what happened. America got dragged into WW2 anyway, with a much tougher enemy then if they had put it an end to them from the very beginning. Even now Biden is still taking baby steps with Putin, smh. If the US had been more steadfast in 2014 we wouldn't have to be loaning out old weapons to Ukraine right now to fight Russia. There would be many more Ukrainians alive today. But we appeased a dictator. Do you not see how that eventually ends up every single time? Weakness sows contempt and emboldens men like Putin. You can bet anything that China is no longer as confident as they once were before the Ukraine war.

 

[sparky]

Who's the one negotiating?

Not us

I missed the part where we're fighting in Ukraine.

We're at war with Russia over a country run by a dictator

poor excuse imho

~S~

 

[zaangalewa]

What are you barking about?

By the way: Did you know that dogs - and so I guess also their ancestors, the wolves, - understand German immediatelly? All other languages they have to translate first.

 

[gipper]

Yugoslavia wasa UN Mission not NATO. Libya was the US working unilaterally. Article 5 of the NATO charter was invoked precisely one time. After 9/11.

Even Wikipedia knows, but you don’t.
NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Wikipedia

 

[forkup]

Even Wikipedia knows, but you don’t.
NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Wikipedia

United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here you go.

 

[forkup]

Even Wikipedia knows, but you don’t.
NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Wikipedia

By the way. It takes a Russian to protest the mission of stopping ethnic cleansing.

 

[krichton]

No that isn't my argument because that is not what it's about, Russia doesn't want Ukraine they just don't want a Nato and US puppet in Kiev being used as a spear against them, why would Nato in Ukraine be acceptable to Russia, Nato has proved it's a violent organisation used as a weapon by the US and it's vassals.

Did you not watch Putin's interview with Tucker? Tucker directly asked Putin if he started the war because of NATO expansion. He rebuked him by, asking if he wanted a serious conversation or to do a "show." After that Putin went on a 30 minute rant about Russia having historical claims to Ukraine. This war has nothing at all to do with NATO. Why do you ppl continue to use an argument that even Putin himself doesn't claim?

 

[Zavulon]

Thank you. You provided what I asked for. That's one hurdle. Let me then give you, what I consider further hurdles to argue that Russia was right to attack Ukraine on the basis of the justification off possible NATO
membership.

So now we have established that in 2008. Ukraine and NATO were talking about membership. So, first the question becomes. Can that be considered a serious possibility? Or at the very least be considered a serious possibility from the perspective of Russia. Considering 2008 was when it first got proposed and 2022 was when the invasion occurred it seems that the excuse is odd. What exactly changed over those FOURTEEN years to make that possibility so threatening?

Actually, the first proposals were a bit earlier.
Some milestones can be find there:

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The last straw, as far as I know, was the visit of American B-52s in Ukrainian airspace in the fall of 2021.

Second, why is Ukraine NOT allowed to see to it's security concerns as they see fit but Russia is?

Mostly because Russia is a nuclear power, and Ukraine is not. If we want to avoid a nuclear war, then, of course, nuclear powers shouldn't create vital threats (directly or indirectly, nuclear or conventional) to each other.

Security concerns which are much, much, MUCH, more tangible then the vague notion that NATO threatens Russian security. Since it was RUSSIA not Ukraine who invaded and took territory in 2014 FROM UKRAINE.

That's you problem. It's not about territory at all. It's about people. And no, in 2014 Russia didn't take territories from Ukraine. Russia recognized independence of Crimean Republic, and then - rejoint with it. If NATO countries have right to recognize independence of Kosovo, then, of course, Russia have right to recognize independence of Crimean Republic, Donetsk People Republic, Lugansk People Republic, Kherson and Zaporoje regions.

Which brings me to hurdle 3. And a hurdle I alluded to. What's the actual threat of NATO?

Ask Serbia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan and many other states, invaded by the members of NATO.

The NATO charter says, and history shows that NATO membership does not provide a blank check for it's members to attack anyone. The only threat NATO poses is to those that DIRECTLY attacks one of it's members.

Did Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria or anybody else directly attacked any of NATO countries?

 

[gipper]

Yes, and look at what happened. America got dragged into WW2 anyway, with a much tougher enemy then if they had put it an end to them from the very beginning. Even now Biden is still taking baby steps with Putin, smh. If the US had been more steadfast in 2014 we wouldn't have to be loaning out old weapons to Ukraine right now to fight Russia. There would be many more Ukrainians alive today. But we appeased a dictator. Do you not see how that eventually ends up every single time? Weakness sows contempt and emboldens men like Putin. You can bet anything that China is no longer as confident as they once were before the Ukraine war.

If the US would not commit coups and military interventions all over the world, we’d have peace. Had our criminal government not instigated a coup of the elected government of Ukraine in 2014, and not massively armed Ukraine, and not given it unconditional support, we’d have peace.

You like so many dumb Americans have allowed government and MIC controlled media to make you believe there is always another Hitler the USG must slay.

Have you ever read these words?…“A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive, will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home.”

How about these? “It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.”

 

[gipper]

United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here you go.

Do you deny NATO was involved in bombing of Yugoslavia?

 

[gipper]

By the way. It takes a Russian to protest the mission of stopping ethnic cleansing.

Now I know you’re really dumb.

 

[zaangalewa]

Actually, no. It was NATO who started it's expansion eastward,

Not really. It existed once - after Russia dissolved the Soviet Union - the idea to make Russia to a member of the NATO and to transform the NATO into a kind of world police for the many new form of asymetric wars. But Putin changed very fast the face of Russia and the NATO was anyway not able to say "no" to the peaceful Eastern European nations who knew that they are too weak to defend themselve alone. The Baltic states for example ... no this I will not tell you now. It's enough that you know that Germany will send a brigade to the NATO member Lithuania to help them because of your unbelievable aggressive nonsense behavior.

it were NATO countries who ruined international law,

Eh? From which zoo do you come?

and it were NATO countries who refused all Russian attempts to build a reliable peace with equal rights and undivided safety for everyone.

Congrats. This was the best joke I heard this year. "Russia fights for equal rights and undivided safety for everyone." So it's damn easy for you to accept that the Ukraine is a sovereign nation and there's no need to slaughter young Russian men - and hopefully not also women - in this stupid, senseless and criminal war against Europe in the Ukraine.

And, technically, it's not a war, yet.

Sorry that I had to laugh now very loud - but somehow you are right. This war of Putin seems to grow to become more a kind of titanic war crime of Russians who had been educated from Putin to be criminals.

Ukraine is a part of our home, too.

No.

Anyway, we can stop this war another way. Burn your cities and kill your men.

Do it.

Like a final solution of European question. ...

Aha. So you are not shy to murder hundreds of millions human beings in an industrialized form of mass-murder. By the way: With this sentence you lost every right to get political asylum in Germany.

 

[zaangalewa]

... Of course, no. You know, history is written by the victors. In fifties, in all history books will be written the simple story about Germany, who started WWIII (as well as she started WWI and WWII), and crushed by the valiant Russian soldiers. ...

What changes nothing in the fact that Russians used Serbs to murder the heir of the Austrian and Hungarian throne - what Austria was not able to ignore. So indeed Russia started world war 1 by "defending" Serbia while they first took care that Serbia will be attacked. Anyway Germany had absolutelly nothing to do with the start of world war 1. And world war 2 was started together from Hitler and Stalin in the secret part of the Molotow-Ribbentrop pact by deciding to eliminate Poland. The real "funny" thing is in this context that Russia started world war 1 with the self-made image to be the defender of all Slaws in Europe - while Russia started world war 2 by starting a war on the Slawic nation Poland.

What's written in history books is by the way only important as long as it has something to do with truth. In this case history is able to help not to repeat endlesssly the same mistakes.



Zavulon

As a Slaw you should perhaps really try to start to think about why the Slaws in Poland, Belarus, Czechia, Ukraine ... and so on ... hate Russia. Exist any normal thinking Slaws at all today who love their "big brother" Russia?

 

[Deadstick]

Did you not watch Putin's interview with Tucker? Tucker directly asked Putin if he started the war because of NATO expansion. He rebuked him by, asking if he wanted a serious conversation or to do a "show." After that Putin went on a 30 minute rant about Russia having historical claims to Ukraine. This war has nothing at all to do with NATO. Why do you ppl continue to use an argument that even Putin himself doesn't claim?

Putin never said he had claims to Ukraine, he said Russia had very close historical ties with Ukraine, they are the same people, stop your lying bullshit, and i have proved it was about Nato expansion, that was the only reason Putin took action in Crimea, but lets face facts Crimea is Russian always has been, in the Crimean war in the 19th century was between Russia and the Turks and their European Imperialist allies, not Ukraine.

 

[JWBooth]

Lol I love these "alternative facts" discussion. READ A MAP. The Crimea, let alone the Donbas are Ukrainian territory. Meaning Russia invaded those territories.

I don't care if Russia doesn't look at it that way. I know who invaded who. And using Ukraine's opposition to that fact as somehow justifying an invasion of the entire country is mendaciously conflating cause with effect.

Because history began a couple years ago.

 

[Deadstick]

Do you deny NATO was involved in bombing of Yugoslavia?

They just won't accept the fact it was a unilateral attack by Nato without a security council resolution, i said at the time this is when the rule of law went out of the window to be replaced by the law of the jungle, people talk about WW3, well this is when it started.