Abortion

[deaddude]

well I guess is just slipped my mind.

How slippery your mind must be then eh?

 

[Said1]

How slippery your mind must be then eh?

Depends.

 

[deaddude]

Hey thats cool so whats your oppinion of masturbation?

:happy2:

 

[shadrack]

Human reproduction is an imperfect process. Only one sperm out of millions produced daily are require for fertilization. As many as half of fertilized eggs die within a couple of weeks of fertilization without the woman even knowing it. As many as one-fifth of all recognized pregnancies miscarry. Birth control pills cause fertilized eggs to not attach to the lining of the uterus.

Abortion should be legally and socially accepted before the eighth week of gestation. It causes nothing more than what nature already causes quite frequently. And it helps to control undesirable births. RU-486 is perfectly reasonable for this use.

Any abortion after the eighth week becomes much more complicated.

It's a deeply emotional subject. But I think people can find historical guidelines. "Quickening", for example, was the line people used to draw.

The latest conflict over abortion laws has been over late term abortions and Bush's absolute ban on them. Both of these stances are just plain wrong and immoral.

 

[dilloduck]

Human reproduction is an imperfect process. Only one sperm out of millions produced daily are require for fertilization. As many as half of fertilized eggs die within a couple of weeks of fertilization without the woman even knowing it. As many as one-fifth of all recognized pregnancies miscarry. Birth control pills cause fertilized eggs to not attach to the lining of the uterus.

Abortion should be legally and socially accepted before the eighth week of gestation. It causes nothing more than what nature already causes quite frequently. And it helps to control undesirable births. RU-486 is perfectly reasonable for this use.

Any abortion after the eighth week becomes much more complicated.

It's a deeply emotional subject. But I think people can find historical guidelines. "Quickening", for example, was the line people used to draw.

The latest conflict over abortion laws has been over late term abortions and Bush's absolute ban on them. Both of these stances are just plain wrong and immoral.

You ignore the huge difference between nature making a decision and a human making a decision. Your implication that nature is not perfect simply because a fetus is not created and carried to full term every time intercourse occurs is flawed !!!

 

[Said1]

The latest conflict over abortion laws has been over late term abortions and Bush's absolute ban on them. Both of these stances are just plain wrong and immoral.

How so?

 

[shadrack]

How so?

well....first of all I don't get my morality from biblical texts, so....

Bush's absolutist approach that all forms of abortion are wrong is immoral. My problem with his stance is that a woman should sacrifice her life and health to prevent abortion. The latest ban on late term abortions lacked an exception that would allow the procedure to protect the woman's life or health.

I personally make a moral distinction between the embryonic stage (the first eight weeks) and the fetal stage (after eight weeks to birth). The embryo is a group of divided cells in the very early stages of growth still laying down fundamental tissues and forming primitive organ systems. The fetus, on the other hand, has attained the basic structural plan of a human. Late term abortion terminates a pregnancy in the fetal stage when there are distinct observable human characteristics. I think it is immoral to terminate a healthy distinctly human life. But there must be exception to protect the woman's life and health.

 

[wade]

I agree Shadrack, except I think activity of the cerebral cortex is the defining moment when a embreo/fetus becomes "human". At this point, I believe the entity can tell when it is being killed, and therefore its life becomes precious and should be protected.

I agree about later term abortions, but I'm not sure if this applies to the "partial birth" abortions that have been banned. In these instances, I think the fetus can be delivered live w/o any more risk to the mother than if it is killed during the process. But I agree in principal, if the choice is between the mothers life and that of the fetus, the mother's life should come first.

Wade.

 

[dilloduck]

I agree Shadrack, except I think activity of the cerebral cortex is the defining moment when a embreo/fetus becomes "human". At this point, I believe the entity can tell when it is being killed, and therefore its life becomes precious and should be protected.

I agree about later term abortions, but I'm not sure if this applies to the "partial birth" abortions that have been banned. In these instances, I think the fetus can be delivered live w/o any more risk to the mother than if it is killed during the process. But I agree in principal, if the choice is between the mothers life and that of the fetus, the mother's life should come first.

Wade.

So you would approve of a ban on all abortion except when there is a serious health risk to the mother?

 

[wade]

So you would approve of a ban on all abortion except when there is a serious health risk to the mother?

And after the cerebral cortex becomes active, yes.

 

[dilloduck]

And after the cerebral cortex becomes active, yes.

and you are opposed to it before the cerebral cortex becomes inactive because?

 

[wade]

and you are opposed to it before the cerebral cortex becomes inactive because?

Well, that is another issue. Eventually I believe the only form of abortion that should be allowed should be something like the RU486 pill, used near the point of conception to ensure a very early term miscarriage.

However, right now I believe the critical issue is to prevent sentient life from being destroyed. I do not believe an embreo is seintient prior to activation of the cerbral cortex - it does not know it is alive or have any sense of identity.

I think that this needs to be done in steps over time, the first step should be to draw a line at the point where the embreo becomes sentient. Later it should be moved back further and further until only induced miscarriages within the first 2-3 weeks are allowed. And even with these, measures should be taken to try to discourage this as a method of birth control.

Wade.

 

[dilloduck]

Well, that is another issue. Eventually I believe the only form of abortion that should be allowed should be something like the RU486 pill, used near the point of conception to ensure a very early term miscarriage.

However, right now I believe the critical issue is to prevent sentient life from being destroyed. I do not believe an embreo is seintient prior to activation of the cerbral cortex - it does not know it is alive or have any sense of identity.

I think that this needs to be done in steps over time, the first step should be to draw a line at the point where the embreo becomes sentient. Later it should be moved back further and further until only induced miscarriages within the first 2-3 weeks are allowed. And even with these, measures should be taken to try to discourage this as a method of birth control.

Wade.

Why have this done over time---sentinent beings are being killed now--is that ok with you?

 

[wade]

Why have this done over time---sentinent beings are being killed now--is that ok with you?

No, which is why I support putting a limit on abortions at the point where the cerbral cortex becomes active - I think this is about the 7th week - to protect sentient life. After that, I think it should then gradually be moved back to protect non-sentient life, which I think also has value.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I think it should then gradually be moved back to protect non-sentient life, which I think also has value.

Yes wade, you ARE valuable! Because you're good enough, you're smart enough, and gosh darnit, people like you!
:kiss2:

 

[shadrack]

I agree Shadrack, except I think activity of the cerebral cortex is the defining moment when a embreo/fetus becomes "human". At this point, I believe the entity can tell when it is being killed, and therefore its life becomes precious and should be protected.

I agree about later term abortions, but I'm not sure if this applies to the "partial birth" abortions that have been banned. In these instances, I think the fetus can be delivered live w/o any more risk to the mother than if it is killed during the process. But I agree in principal, if the choice is between the mothers life and that of the fetus, the mother's life should come first.

Wade.

Seven weeks it is then, but most undesired pregnancies are discovered after the first missed period. The two to three week date isn't very practical or even very applicable. But maybe that's your goal. To make abortion not applicable.


on partial birth abortions.........what a mess.....

Why they are called partial birth abortions I don't know. It is actually a medical procedure. It's terrible but it is only done AS a medical procedure. It's medical name is Dilation and Extraction. I can explain it to you (gruesome). A doctor punctures the fetus' skull to remove it's contents and then the skull may be broken into smaller pieces. Then the fetus is removed. It's a horrible, horrible thought.

But the worst part of the whole mess is the ban against it. Because it is a medical procedure designed to save a woman's life and health. Dilation and Extraction is usually performed on fetuses with prenatal Hydrocephalus. Which causes the fetus' head to swell during development to as large as 20 inches in diameter.

Those who are for the "partial birth" abortion ban as it is make it sound as though someone seeking an abortion may say "no doc, I don't want the regular abortion. Give me the one that removes the brains first!!" I mean give me a frickin' break.

 

[Gem]

shadrack,

Actually, it is a myth that partial birth abortions are neccessary to save a woman's life...hence why the American Medical Association is against the procedure and supported the ban.

"Contrary to what the proponents of partial-birth abortion are saying, this procedure is never medically necessary to save the life or future fertility of the mother. In 1996, a group of physicians, mostly experts in the fields of obstetrics, gynecology and pediatrics, were outraged over the false stories being spread by the national media and pro-abortion groups. They banned together to form Physicians' Ad Hoc Coalition for Truth (PHACT). PHACT now consists of more than 600 medical specialists including former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop. These doctors came together to get the message to the American people that partial-birth abortions are never medically necessary to save the life of the mother or her future fertility. (Under the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, a mother can still have a partial-birth abortion if her life is in jeopardy.)"

Dr. James McMahon, a Los Angeles abortionist and inventor of the partial-birth abortion procedure, developed the procedure to meet the demands of women who wanted an abortion late into their pregnancies.

Ron Fitzsimmons, executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers had argued that partial-birth abortions were extremely rare and used only in dire situations. Now he says his remarks were only a deception to protect the abortion industry. "I lied though my teeth," Fitzsimmons said. He now says the numbers are more in the 5,000 per year range, and "they are primarily done on healthy fetuses of healthy women." (Many believe that his estimate is still quite conservative.)

The bottom line is that partial-birth abortion is a LEGAL term, it is done so that it can still be an abortion, rather than a murder.

The partial-birth abortion ban still allows for it to be done in the case of extreme health risks to the mother...which is more than the American Medical Assosciation and the Former Surgeon General feel is necessary, since they feel that there is NEVER a need to do a partial-birth abortion.

 

[wade]

Seven weeks it is then, but most undesired pregnancies are discovered after the first missed period. The two to three week date isn't very practical or even very applicable. But maybe that's your goal. To make abortion not applicable.


on partial birth abortions.........what a mess.....

Why they are called partial birth abortions I don't know. It is actually a medical procedure. It's terrible but it is only done AS a medical procedure. It's medical name is Dilation and Extraction. I can explain it to you (gruesome). A doctor punctures the fetus' skull to remove it's contents and then the skull may be broken into smaller pieces. Then the fetus is removed. It's a horrible, horrible thought.

But the worst part of the whole mess is the ban against it. Because it is a medical procedure designed to save a woman's life and health. Dilation and Extraction is usually performed on fetuses with prenatal Hydrocephalus. Which causes the fetus' head to swell during development to as large as 20 inches in diameter.

Those who are for the "partial birth" abortion ban as it is make it sound as though someone seeking an abortion may say "no doc, I don't want the regular abortion. Give me the one that removes the brains first!!" I mean give me a frickin' break.

Well, prior to the ban the law allowed a doctor to abort a 28 week old viable fetus and kill it at the mothers request, even if there was no threat to the mother. Most doctors would not perform this proceedure, but some would.

On the issue of pregnancy detection, the technology is there now to detect pregnancy by the 3rd week with a high degree of reliability, and by the 5th week with an extremely high degree of reliability. If a woman is engaging in sex, it's her responsibility to determine if she is pregnant at an early date if she wants to have the abortion option. I would support the idea that women below some income threshold, or perhaps all women, should be given pregnancy test kits free.

Also, I think there is a tattoo in development that will change colors when a woman is pregnant. Such a tattoo, a very small dot, in a private location could be used to virtually ensure that all pregnancies are detected very early.

Wade.

 

[beemerup]

My D.W. is an R.N. in an N.I.C.U. and now a days 26 weeks is about the common viability point.

 

[InfitiasFatalis]

Can some lib out there please, give me ONE good reason to be "Pro Abortion"? Just one?

not possible there isnt one