Abortion

[-Cp]

Can some lib out there please, give me ONE good reason to be "Pro Abortion"? Just one?

 

[Avatar4321]

Can some lib out there please, give me ONE good reason to be "Pro Abortion"? Just one?

There is a good reason now?

 

[wade]

Can some lib out there please, give me ONE good reason to be "Pro Abortion"? Just one?

There are no good reasons to be "pro-abortion", in fact I don't think you will find such a person anywhere.

There are good reasons to be "pro-choice" however, given many aspects of our culture and society.

Wade.

 

[eric]

There are good reasons to be "pro-choice" however, given many aspects of our culture and society.

With limitations, though !

 

[dilloduck]

There are no good reasons to be "pro-abortion", in fact I don't think you will find such a person anywhere.

There are good reasons to be "pro-choice" however, given many aspects of our culture and society.

Wade.

Lets hear em, Wade

 

[eric]

I do want to make it know though, that I am pro-life and do not believe in abortion.

 

[krisy]

There are no good reasons to be "pro-abortion", in fact I don't think you will find such a person anywhere.

There are good reasons to be "pro-choice" however, given many aspects of our culture and society.

Wade.

That sounds like spin to me. Abortion is abortion. It is too serious to be thrown into the choice category. When our culture and society was more moral,abortion was illegal.

 

[wade]

That sounds like spin to me. Abortion is abortion. It is too serious to be thrown into the choice category. When our culture and society was more moral,abortion was illegal.

When our society was "more moral", the rich girls got abortions from doctors in hospitals, the poor girls got back alley abortions. I do not in any way favor abortion, but I do think that it should not be something that is available to those with money, but denied those without.

I had a next door neighbor who was a nurse and volunteered about 6 weeks a year to go down to S. America and work in hospitals trying to save the victims of back alley abortions. She said that in 6 weeks she'd see over 1000 such victims, and that many would die. It used to be this way in the USA too, when our country was "more moral".

The fact is that women are going to get pregnant and seek abortions, the question is how do we as a society deal with this? Whatever choice we make, it has to be fair and universal - it cannot make exceptions for the rich.

I'm pro-choice because the pro-life people won't even consider compromise. I think what we should do is institute a policy which reduces the rights to abortion over time. Something along the lines of, except where the mother's life is at risk, no abortions after 14 weeks right now, reduced to 12 weeks in 3 years, reduced to 10 weeks in 3 more years, reduced to 8 weeks in 4 more years, and eventually only the "morning after pill" would be allowed without special circumstances. But these standards have to be universally applied - they cannot allow the rich to work around them in any way - and that includes going to another country to have an abortion.

I also think abortion should be available for cases of rape, and in cases where there is a significant genetic defect, especially one which will result in the childs death at an early age. In any case where an abortion is denied, all medical expenses and special care expenses for the child should be covered by the government - i.e. if you make a family have a serverly retarded child against their wishes you should have to foot the bill.

Furthermore, if the state is not going to allow abortions the state needs to step up and provide for unwanted children much better than it does today.

To me the solution to the whole thing is simple. At about age 13 or 14, every male in the country should recieve a vascetomy, probably through installation of some kind of electronically controlled valve. If you want to have a kid, you go and have the valve opened. It would be a serious crime for a man to have sex with a woman without telling her his valve was open. Walla - no unwanted pregancies - problem solved!

Wade.

 

[Mr. P]

Can some lib out there please, give me ONE good reason to be "Pro Abortion"? Just one?

Well I'm no liberal.....But...Michael Moore comes to mind.

 

[krisy]

When our society was "more moral", the rich girls got abortions from doctors in hospitals, the poor girls got back alley abortions. I do not in any way favor abortion, but I do think that it should not be something that is available to those with money, but denied those without.

I had a next door neighbor who was a nurse and volunteered about 6 weeks a year to go down to S. America and work in hospitals trying to save the victims of back alley abortions. She said that in 6 weeks she'd see over 1000 such victims, and that many would die. It used to be this way in the USA too, when our country was "more moral".

The fact is that women are going to get pregnant and seek abortions, the question is how do we as a society deal with this? Whatever choice we make, it has to be fair and universal - it cannot make exceptions for the rich.

I'm pro-choice because the pro-life people won't even consider compromise. I think what we should do is institute a policy which reduces the rights to abortion over time. Something along the lines of, except where the mother's life is at risk, no abortions after 14 weeks right now, reduced to 12 weeks in 3 years, reduced to 10 weeks in 3 more years, reduced to 8 weeks in 4 more years, and eventually only the "morning after pill" would be allowed without special circumstances. But these standards have to be universally applied - they cannot allow the rich to work around them in any way - and that includes going to another country to have an abortion.

I also think abortion should be available for cases of rape, and in cases where there is a significant genetic defect, especially one which will result in the childs death at an early age. In any case where an abortion is denied, all medical expenses and special care expenses for the child should be covered by the government - i.e. if you make a family have a serverly retarded child against their wishes you should have to foot the bill.

Furthermore, if the state is not going to allow abortions the state needs to step up and provide for unwanted children much better than it does today.

To me the solution to the whole thing is simple. At about age 13 or 14, every male in the country should recieve a vascetomy, probably through installation of some kind of electronically controlled valve. If you want to have a kid, you go and have the valve opened. It would be a serious crime for a man to have sex with a woman without telling her his valve was open. Walla - no unwanted pregancies - problem solved!

Wade.

Wade,you do seem more open minded on the subject than I thought,but I have to say I am not very open minded on this subject and am not ashamed of that.

First,the women that have back alley abortions do it to themselves. How many options are there in this country to help one not get pregnant? I am a mother of 2 and have a lot of trouble feeling sorry for a woman that hurt herself because she tried to have a back alley abortion done on her child and hurt herself. This is unthinkable to me. For me,it's an issue of personal responsibility for a woman AND a man. Even for woman that have no man in their life,can make it. I know a few woman that have made it on their own with no help from the children's fathers.

Abortion is allowed for woman that may have a child with a defect. When I was pregnant,they asked me if I wanted some kind of test to see if their could be these kinds of things wrong with our child and I did not get it. It didn't matter because I would not have had an abortion anyway. I understand this is a tough subject,but for me it's not an option. I also do not think that what a woman goes through after an abortion is taken into consideration. What if she regrets it? Too late. Nothing she can do. What about all the years she will spend wondering what sex the child was,what he or she may have looked like,and could she have made it?

Partial birth abortion is just flat out disgusting and there is no reason for that at all. If you can pull the child out of the mothers body to save her life,then why do you have to kill the baby half way out? Hoe does that save the mothers life? The baby is coming out and sucking it's brains out is NOT saving anyone.

As far as your 14 year olds getting valves put in,that sounds a little over the top for me-lol!!! I don't think you will get much backing on that one!!!

 

[janeeng]

First,the women that have back alley abortions do it to themselves. How many options are there in this country to help one not get pregnant? I am a mother of 2 and have a lot of trouble feeling sorry for a woman that hurt herself because she tried to have a back alley abortion done on her child and hurt herself. This is unthinkable to me. For me,it's an issue of personal responsibility for a woman AND a man. Even for woman that have no man in their life,can make it. I know a few woman that have made it on their own with no help from the children's fathers.

While I agree with you Krisy in most parts of your reply, I have to say that I do question this paragraph. First, years ago, there weren't as many options as offered today. Yes, there was adoption, but for some YOUNG girls, the thoughts of even going home to her parents and explain this brought too much fear to them, and YES, they never should have gotten this way to begin with. Getting this way is even a situation in itself, there is RAPE, and to some, they might go ahead and have a child, to not have abortion, but I don't know myself, if I were raped, by some NASTY person, if I could turn around and keep a child, this is ONLY my opinion, but I am sure there are alot that share the same. There are also woman medically who's lives are on the line, giving birth leaves them for death themselves, then what, a child brought into this world without a Mother. I think that is a very tough thing for any Mother to have to sit and decide which life should be saved!!! Though I agree that abortion is murder, I think it is only right to look into the situation before passing judgement. BTW - I too have 2 children, in which, I am raising on MY OWN!!!! but I still wouldn't allow myself to critize and woman for doing this without knowing the circumstances first.

 

[techhead]

What we should do is arrive in the 21st century and allow women the right to do as they please with their bodies and use the technology available today to curtail unwanted babies. Politicians making the decision for women is absolutely absurd. Quit thinking and arguing about the subject so much and work with the people in this country and let the rest of the world solve their problems. Or allow us the lead in solving the problem and following suit.

Keep personal judgements and opinions out of the equation and work toward a universal solution including tackling the problems with teenage pregnancies, again using the technology to work out the problem.

 

[dilloduck]

OK--Time for this speech again. Abortion is a womens' rights issue that has run amok. Nature has determined that the men fertilize the egg and the women carry the baby. Women who can't accept this want the power to do whatever they want to with the baby by claiming that because it is in their body, it is their right. This totally removes the man from the reproductive decisions except for having sex in the firt place. Pro-choice men just want abortion legal so if they don't want a child they can encourage abortion legally.

 

[janeeng]

OK--Time for this speech again. Abortion is a womens' rights issue that has run amok. Nature has determined that the men fertilize the egg and the women carry the baby. Women who can't accept this want the power to do whatever they want to with the baby by claiming that because it is in their body, it is their right. This totally removes the man from the reproductive decisions except for having sex in the firt place. Pro-choice men just want abortion legal so if they don't want a child they can encourage abortion legally.

Agree to most of this dillo - but again, if your saying about the Father, then again, let's get back to a rape victim, It WAS HER BODY that was violated, not asked to have this done, not asked to wind up pregnant, and do you then think this man should have any right in the decision that she makes in not wanting this? He has no RIGHTS, he had no right to do what he did, he has no right to make that decision either for her.

 

[Joan]

"What we should do is arrive in the 21st century and allow women the right to do as they please with their bodies and use the technology available today to curtail unwanted babies."

And perhaps use abortion as a form of birth control?? I have know too many women who did just that! Slept around, then got pregnant, so run and get an abortion! This is just plain WRONG! And I'm not talking one abortion - but in some case 4 and 5. I can understand abortion perhaps in the case of violent rape or incest, or if the mother's life is in danger - and that is IT! In the case of a teenager afraid of what their parents may think, you might just be surprise how supportive some parents can be in this scenario. Especially in this day and age - it is seen that life can be okay with only one parent.

Now it is time to take my medication and take a nap.

 

[dilloduck]

Agree to most of this dillo - but again, if your saying about the Father, then again, let's get back to a rape victim, It WAS HER BODY that was violated, not asked to have this done, not asked to wind up pregnant, and do you then think this man should have any right in the decision that she makes in not wanting this? He has no RIGHTS, he had no right to do what he did, he has no right to make that decision either for her.

Problem with that is women who were NOT raped could easily claim that they were. How are they gonna prove it? I bet the crime stats on rape would go sky high and go as an "unsolved" crime.

 

[janeeng]

Problem with that is women who were NOT raped could easily claim that they were. How are they gonna prove it? I bet the crime stats on rape would go sky high and go as an "unsolved" crime.

While that can be true in some cases, I don't think all do this! I have heard that some that were raped actually chose to keep the baby, and I truly applaud a woman that can do that, but I just don't think ALL can make that same decision.

 

[wade]

First,the women that have back alley abortions do it to themselves. How many options are there in this country to help one not get pregnant? I am a mother of 2 and have a lot of trouble feeling sorry for a woman that hurt herself because she tried to have a back alley abortion done on her child and hurt herself. This is unthinkable to me. For me,it's an issue of personal responsibility for a woman AND a man.

I don't see how you cannot feel sorry for a 15 year old girl that got pregnant and her dad took her to a back alley abortionist, and she ended up sterile or dead as a result.

No one is forcing you to have an abortion, and if they did I'd be taking out my guns and doing what I could to stop it. But that is your choice, you are now trying to deny any legal choices to others. What it all comes down to is your belief that life starts at conception - and that is a topic of debate, depending on a lot of definitions.

But there is a reasonable argument to be made that a woman has the right to decide if she will provide her body to incubate a zigot into an embreo, and an embreo into a fetus, and a fetus into a full term baby. Where we draw the line between the woman's rights and those of the child she carries is the issue at hand. Personally, I think that meaningful independant life begins at the point where the cerebral cortex becomes functional, which appears to be part way through what we call the embreonic stage. I think that after this point abortions should not be legal except in exceptional circumstances.

As for birth control - well aside from "the pill" and it's like, no method is particularly reliable, other than vasectomy or having the tubes tied. Even the pill fails sometimes, and women put their health at risk by taking the pill, leaving other less reliable methods for those who do not wish to take those risks.

What you are really arguing, when you get right down to it, is that women should refrain from pre-marital sex, and that is just unrealistic.

Even for woman that have no man in their life,can make it. I know a few woman that have made it on their own with no help from the children's fathers.

Well, that is subjective. Many women do not just want to "make it". I would bet you have known these women after they made it on their own w/o help from the father - you have met the exceptions. How many women have you known who got pregnant, had the child w/o the father to help, and ended up welfare mothers? These are the "rule".

Partial birth abortion is just flat out disgusting and there is no reason for that at all. If you can pull the child out of the mothers body to save her life,then why do you have to kill the baby half way out? Hoe does that save the mothers life? The baby is coming out and sucking it's brains out is NOT saving anyone.

I agree partial birth abortions are wrong and should not be allowed. I personally don't think any kind of abortion should be allowed after the 16th week except where the mothers life is at serious risk - this might result in a non-viable fetus if it were to happen in the 20th through 24th weeks. But if the fetus is viable the baby should be delivered live. We are in agreement on this one I think.

As far as your 14 year olds getting valves put in,that sounds a little over the top for me-lol!!! I don't think you will get much backing on that one!!!

Why is it over the top? Because men have to feel they can impregnate a woman to feel masculine? Give me a good argument against this option.

It is very much within our technical capability. We just have to wait until the boy is old enough to deliver a viable sperm sample, just incase for some reason he should become infertile as a result of the process, which would probably happen in a very very small percentage (maybe one in 10,000). This is a viable solution which solves the problem nearly completely, requires no taking of hormones by either the man or the woman, and it would be cheap too!

Where do you see the problem with this idea?

Wade.

 

[krisy]

While I agree with you Krisy in most parts of your reply, I have to say that I do question this paragraph. First, years ago, there weren't as many options as offered today. Yes, there was adoption, but for some YOUNG girls, the thoughts of even going home to her parents and explain this brought too much fear to them, and YES, they never should have gotten this way to begin with. Getting this way is even a situation in itself, there is RAPE, and to some, they might go ahead and have a child, to not have abortion, but I don't know myself, if I were raped, by some NASTY person, if I could turn around and keep a child, this is ONLY my opinion, but I am sure there are alot that share the same. There are also woman medically who's lives are on the line, giving birth leaves them for death themselves, then what, a child brought into this world without a Mother. I think that is a very tough thing for any Mother to have to sit and decide which life should be saved!!! Though I agree that abortion is murder, I think it is only right to look into the situation before passing judgement. BTW - I too have 2 children, in which, I am raising on MY OWN!!!! but I still wouldn't allow myself to critize and woman for doing this without knowing the circumstances first.

You do make good points. There are definitely situations in which it would be extremely tough,like rape and the mothers life. Especially if she has other children. It is tough. In general,I just don't approve of women who get many abortions or don't take responsibility.

My mom was adopted at 2 months old in 1951. Her mother was a 16 year old girl and dad was in the service. Thank God she didn't have a back alley abortion and had my mom,otherwise I wouldn't be here today. My grandma and grandpa were the best anyone could have asked for and I thank God that these were the people that adopted my mom. We have never met my mom's biological parents and never tried although I have thought about it-but figure it's my mom's decision ultimately. I don't know what she went through with her prgnancy,but I know because she made a good choice,I am here today. My mom has had a good life and grew up with wonderful parents-I loved my granny so,so much. I know it doesn't always work out this great,but it can.

 

[dilloduck]

I don't see how you cannot feel sorry for a 15 year old girl that got pregnant and her dad took her to a back alley abortionist, and she ended up sterile or dead as a result.

No one is forcing you to have an abortion, and if they did I'd be taking out my guns and doing what I could to stop it. But that is your choice, you are now trying to deny any legal choices to others. What it all comes down to is your belief that life starts at conception - and that is a topic of debate, depending on a lot of definitions.

But there is a reasonable argument to be made that a woman has the right to decide if she will provide her body to incubate a zigot into an embreo, and an embreo into a fetus, and a fetus into a full term baby. Where we draw the line between the woman's rights and those of the child she carries is the issue at hand. Personally, I think that meaningful independant life begins at the point where the cerebral cortex becomes functional, which appears to be part way through what we call the embreonic stage. I think that after this point abortions should not be legal except in exceptional circumstances.

As for birth control - well aside from "the pill" and it's like, no method is particularly reliable, other than vasectomy or having the tubes tied. Even the pill fails sometimes, and women put their health at risk by taking the pill, leaving other less reliable methods for those who do not wish to take those risks.

What you are really arguing, when you get right down to it, is that women should refrain from pre-marital sex, and that is just unrealistic.



Well, that is subjective. Many women do not just want to "make it". I would bet you have known these women after they made it on their own w/o help from the father - you have met the exceptions. How many women have you known who got pregnant, had the child w/o the father to help, and ended up welfare mothers? These are the "rule".



I agree partial birth abortions are wrong and should not be allowed. I personally don't think any kind of abortion should be allowed after the 16th week except where the mothers life is at serious risk - this might result in a non-viable fetus if it were to happen in the 20th through 24th weeks. But if the fetus is viable the baby should be delivered live. We are in agreement on this one I think.



Why is it over the top? Because men have to feel they can impregnate a woman to feel masculine? Give me a good argument against this option.

It is very much within our technical capability. We just have to wait until the boy is old enough to deliver a viable sperm sample, just incase for some reason he should become infertile as a result of the process, which would probably happen in a very very small percentage (maybe one in 10,000). This is a viable solution which solves the problem nearly completely, requires no taking of hormones by either the man or the woman, and it would be cheap too!

Where do you see the problem with this idea?

Wade.

What is "unrealistic" about abstinance until youwant a child?