Zone1 Abortion Debate: Come Clean and without fallacy

[Eman623]

People change their minds all the time. Usually because they receive new information. I couldn't care less if you accept what I am saying is true. My obligation to truth is satisfied when I present it. What you do with it is up to you. You are free to believe and do whatever you want, but you are not free to avoid suffering the consequences. Normalization of deviance is a real thing and it leads to predictable surprises.

Not the truth. Your truth. Which no else cares about. We've already covered this.

Yes, abortion was historically adjudicated as a misdemeanor in the United States, particularly during the 19th and early 20th centuries. While early American common law often permitted abortion before "quickening" (when movement is felt), by the mid-1800s, many states began passing statutes that categorized abortion—especially pre-quickening—as a criminal offense, often classified as a misdemeanor rather than a felony.

Now this is new and interesting. This is not unlike my own position. I don't use quickening as the dividing line, but given the limited science of past times, that was the best they could do to establish enough fetal development that aborting after that point would cross a moral and ethical line.

So when you say abortion should be a class C misdemeanor, are you suggesting that applies to early term abortions or all abortions. I can understand the former, and even the latter. It's all where you choose to draw the line. Some draw it at birth, which would be consistent with the latter position.

That's so that you can feel better about yourself. It's easier to kill it when it when you see it as less than a person.

Already covered this too.

What incongruity do you believe I have? Because your incongruity arises when you see abortion as ending the life of a person. If you believed that would you still support abortion? I say you wouldn't. Surprise me.

You surprised me with your historical context. If you want to explore that further, great.

OTOH, If you want to keep asking me why I'm not accepting your projection of guilt, then we're done. Asked and answered, counselor.

 

[Hafar1014]

Within the western hemisphere, we can observe the consequences of repressive regimes that prohibit reproductive freedom, and arrogates control of wombs to the State.

Nicaragua, Honduras and El Salvador have complete abortion bans.

in El Salvador, women are imprisoned for suspected abortions.

Advanced democratic nations reject such rabid statism.

Those who insist that that the United States should emulate dictatorships like Nicaragua, Honduras, and El Salvador are widely rejected by Americans.

Even the least-educated states - West Virginia, Louisiana, Arkansas - that have the most repressive reproductive laws in the nation are prevented by the U S Constitution from inflicting absolute statist repression, and cannot prevent their citizens from seeking medical care in a more advanced state.

Abortion is a safe and common medical procedure, about which thoughtful individuals hold diverging, yet equally deeply held and well-considered perspectives. Like all health care decisions, a decision to terminate a pregnancy should be made privately within the relationship of trust between patient and physician in keeping with the patient’s unique values and needs and the physician’s best professional judgment.
The Principles of Medical Ethics of the AMA permit physicians to perform abortions in keeping with good medical practice

View attachment 1220533​

Thats because in those nations the Catholic Church Rules

 

[Eman623]

No matter how well you think you cloaked it with "In this case I think the SCOTUS got it right" you have in fact deferred to their ruling and you have embraced it.

Stop lying. I defer to their legal expertise, which far surpasses both of us.

I never automatically defer to SCOTUS rulings, and never even used the word "defer" in this thread. You lied when you said I in fact deferred to their ruling.

Rather than dealing with the constitutional clusterfuck their ruling creates by having something as fundamental as "personhood" vary from one State to another.

Welcome to the real world.

 

[Chuz Life]

Stop lying. I defer to their legal expertise, which far surpasses both of us.

I never automatically defer to SCOTUS rulings, and never even used the word "defer" in this thread. You lied when you said I in fact deferred to their ruling.


Welcome to the real world.

I wasn't alone in seeing your embracing of the SCOTUS words in Dobbs (rather than challenging those words) as "deferring."

Your response, "Welcome to the real world," to the Constitutional mess the SCOTUS created by having personhood vary State by State is very telling too.

The only thing that matters to you is that the denial of basic human rights to the most basic human beings of all remains unchanged.

A child is not even a child unless and until they live long enough as to develop past some arbitrarily decided point where you can't stomach your own denial of them anymore.

Yours is an epitome of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[Hafar1014]

I wasn't alone in seeing your embracing of the SCOTUS words in Dobbs (rather than challenging those words) as "deferring."

Your response, "Welcome to the real world," to the Constitutional mess the SCOTUS created by having personhood vary State by State is very telling too.

The only thing that matters to you is that the denial of basic human rights to the most basic human beings of all remains unchanged.

A child is not even a child unless and until they live long enough as to develop past some arbitrarily decided point where you can't stomach your own denial of them anymore.

Yours is an epitome of intellectual dishonesty.

A person must be an individual. A fetus is not an indivdual. There must be selfawareness

An individual is a single, distinct, and indivisible entity, person, or organism existing independently, often defined in contrast to a group or collective. It signifies uniqueness in psychology (selfhood/traits), philosophy (a singular, non-divisible being), sociology (an agent within a society), and law (a human as a legal subject). Types include human beings, singular organisms, or specific, separate items.
Wikipedia

Core Concepts of an Individual

• Psychology: Focuses on the unique self, encompassing individual needs, consciousness, personality traits, and personal goals.
• Philosophy:Refers to an indivisible unit or a specific instance of a species that possesses its own existence, distinct from a class or universal
  .

 

[schmidlap]

Thats because in those nations the Catholic Church Rules

Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega goes after the Catholic Church in his latest effort to stop criticism of the government

Catholicism has been in decline under the authoritarian regimes of both El Salvador and Honduras, as well.

 

[Eman623]

I wasn't alone in seeing your embracing of the SCOTUS words in Dobbs (rather than challenging those words) as "deferring."

Whatever. Don't make up lies about me. "Agree with" and "defer to" are not synonymous.

Your response, "Welcome to the real world," to the Constitutional mess the SCOTUS created by having personhood vary State by State is very telling too.

The only thing that matters to you is that the denial of basic human rights to the most basic human beings of all remains unchanged.

More lies. A lot of things matter to me.

A child is not even a child unless and until they live long enough as to develop past some arbitrarily decided point where you can't stomach your own denial of them anymore.

More lies. "Person", not "child".

Yours is an epitome of intellectual dishonesty.

Three lies in one post and you accuse me of dishonesty?

Bored now.

 

[Chuz Life]

Whatever. Don't make up lies about me. "Agree with" and "defer to" are not synonymous.


More lies. A lot of things matter to me.


More lies. "Person", not "child".


Three lies in one post and you accuse me of dishonesty?

Bored now.

So you admit that it's a child now?

I'll take the polygraph any time.

 

[schmidlap]

Can you tell me why you don't think a woman's right to her body should begin when HER life and body begins?

Edited to add: (Assuming your reporting is correct) I have more respect for those countries on the issue of abortion than I have for the U.S., 100%

Again, do you prefer the reproductive policies of El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua under which the State prohibits abortion under all circumstances to those of the United States?

Can you honestly answer the question?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Lie? It's an opinion at the moment.

Yes, lie. No, none of you actually think it is murder.

Yes, anti choicers are lying, when they say they think it is murder.

Is a normal adult supposed ot believe your and their response to widespread "murder" with impunity is diddling yourselves on a message board? Praying and throwing shade?

Please.

 

[Chuz Life]

Again, do you prefer the reproductive policies of El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua under which the State prohibits abortion under all circumstances to those of the United States?

Can you honestly answer the question?

I don't have time to examine the letter of the laws, exceptions (if any) or any other clauses.

I have already given my honest response.

I would prefer the laws against abortion in those nations to the U.S. laws of near complete denial of humanity to children in the womb, 100%

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I don't have time to examine the letter of the laws, exceptions (if any) or any other clauses.

I have already given my honest response.

I would prefer the laws against abortion in those nations to the laws of near complete denial of humanity to children in the womb, 100%

Right, you would prefer to deny humanity to the mother, at the end of a gun.

 

[schmidlap]

I don't have time to examine the letter of the laws, exceptions (if any) or any other clauses.

I have already given my honest response.

I would prefer the laws against abortion in those nations to the U.S. laws of near complete denial of humanity to children in the womb, 100%

Freedom-loving Americans are not about to surrender to extremists, whether they seek, by State imposition, to prohibit or to demand that women undergo abortions.

 

[Chuz Life]

Freedom-loving Americans are not about to surrender to extremists, whether they seek, by State imposition, to prohibit or to demand that women undergo abortions.

Meh. Needs salt.

"Freedom-loving Americans" of all people should understand that basic human rights should begin when a human life does.

 

[Eman623]

So you admit that it's a child now?

No.

I'll take the polygraph any time.

I already proved you lied.

 

[schmidlap]

Meh. Needs salt.

"Freedom-loving Americans" of all people should understand that basic human rights should begin when a human life does.

You have made your extremist positions abundantly clear.

Nevertheless, a microscopic, mindless amalgam of cells biologically reliant on a womb is not a person.

The U.S. Supreme Court has historically ruled that a fetus is not considered a "person" under the Fourteenth Amendment, meaning it does not possess constitutional rights.

 

[Chuz Life]

No.

LOL.

So, a child is not a child, when the child is only in the zygote, embryo or fetal stage of their life?

Doe a child that is only in the zygote, embryo or fetal stage of their life have biological parents?

I already proved you lied.

I know you think so, but you didn't.

 

[Chuz Life]

You have made your extremist positions abundantly clear.

Nevertheless, a microscopic, mindless amalgam of cells biologically reliant on a womb is not a person.

Tell that to those who have been charged with MURDER for killing one.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Tell that to those who have been charged with MURDER for killing one.View attachment 1220589

They have to assign intent to life to keep their position.

 

[Monk-Eye]

" Typical Disingenuous Propaganda About Developmental Age By Freak Farm Fanatics For Dictates Through Populism Rather Than By Independence Of The Individual "

* Missed Representation Of With Cause Versus Without Cause Abortion *

View attachment 1220503

Such are cartoons for the gullibility train , as a foe to us , as a feat of us , as feet of us , is a fetus that would be beyond a developmental age of 16 weeks , or approximately 120 days when qurayshism supposes in sole meant , or ensoulment , which coincides with a period known as a quickening .

The quickening is autonomic for development of physical growth , while cognizance through sentience is not available any earlier than onset of thalamocortical spindles ( approximately 23 weeks ) that bridge the autonomic nervous system of the thalamus with the higher order thinking of the cerebral cortex , which facilitates detection of stimulus and introspection .

More than 90% of congenital abnormalities ( 3% of all pregnancies severe congenital abnormalities ) are detected through ultrasound between 13 and 20 weeks , while amniocentesis to diagnose genetic disorders is available at 15 weeks with a 1 in 100 chance for miscarriage or at 20 weeks with a 1 in 200 chance for miscarriage .

The freak farmer fanatics , those who do not have even an inkling of involvement in the life , liberty or pursuit of happiness of the individual and , when it comes to individual liberty to disposition foetal abnormalities , the self ownership element of individualism for progeny from principles of individualism is conveniently ignored , and what follows are dictates from delusions of grandeur that is similar in origin to the anthropocentric psychosis of those instituting coerced sterilization , abortion and euthanasia .