Abortion as Murder.

[Dr Grump]

I am not PC, I wonder do you think there is any such thing as sin sin you do not have to say a sin is a sin or call it by another name?She was already sorry for her sins, Jesus did not say she did not have any sins. Which is what you seem to be doing, at a babies expense and womens expense.

Oh, please...hypocrisy abounds. Here are you, on this thread, going on and on about the innocents, yet have a religion that states people are born with sin. What sort of claptrap is that. From a book written by mean eons ago claiming to be writing the word of a god.

Tell me Lisa, when my two sons were one minute old, what sin had they committed? Greed? Gluttony? Adultory? Theft maybe? How about murder?

Your version of Christianity is one of the scourges of the Earth...probably caused more harm than good...probably...

 

[Dr Grump]

You have managed to create secular claptrap by responding with intentionally ignorant responses. Equally nauseating.

Oh, please, please, please. Point out the ignorance in my posts...take your time....

already did----take any living being out of it's environment and it will die. Using that as some kind of "proof" for abortion is absurd.

Is that all you an come up with? pppffffttt. I used it to illustrate how absurd HER argument was, not to reinforce mine...

 

[Dr Grump]

Hell, you cant even spell the word G-d

Its OVERLY sensitive pussies that are so worried that someone may mention GOD.... holy shit.... is your skin burning or something?

I have not seen Jillian ridiculing your religion, stop ridiculing hers.

Jews never spell out the word god...it's part of their belief system.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

I am not PC, I wonder do you think there is any such thing as sin sin you do not have to say a sin is a sin or call it by another name?She was already sorry for her sins, Jesus did not say she did not have any sins. Which is what you seem to be doing, at a babies expense and womens expense.

Oh, please...hypocrisy abounds. Here are you, on this thread, going on and on about the innocents, yet have a religion that people are born with sin. What sort of claptrap is that. From a book written by mean eons ago claiming to be writing the word of a god.

Tell me Lisa, when my two sons were one minute old, what sin had they committed? Greed? Gluttony? Adultory? Theft maybe? How about murder?

Your version of Christianity is one of the scourges of the Earth...probably caused more harm than good...probably...

The stain of origional sin is not the act of sinning, it is the propensity to do so in their human nature. You want to kick around Catholics take it to the Religion forum.

 

[Dr Grump]

The stain of origional sin is not the act of sinning, it is the propensity to do so in their human nature. You want to kick around Catholics take it to the Religion forum.

So, what sin did they commit

And Ill ask it in whatever forum I want to.....you're the one who started talking about sin....

 

[The Infidel]

Hell, you cant even spell the word G-d

Its OVERLY sensitive pussies that are so worried that someone may mention GOD.... holy shit.... is your skin burning or something?

I have not seen Jillian ridiculing your religion, stop ridiculing hers.

Jews never spell out the word god...it's part of their belief system.

OK.... fair enough. I honestly didnt even know Jillian was Jewish.

Jillian... Im sorry. BTW, I really wasnt trying to make fun... just trying to make a point.

But, I didnt know that.

BTW, can I ask why that is (the spelling)


Oh, and Grump.... why is it that you will redicule Lisa, and not give a shit about her beliefs but you run to Jillians defense? Just asking.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

The stain of origional sin is not the act of sinning, it is the propensity to do so in their human nature. You want to kick around Catholics take it to the Religion forum.

So, what sin did they commit

And Ill ask it in whatever forum I want to.....you're the one who started talking about sin....

THey inherited the sin of Adam, it is the predisposition towards sin, a flawed nature.

 

[Dr Grump]

Hell, you cant even spell the word G-d

Its OVERLY sensitive pussies that are so worried that someone may mention GOD.... holy shit.... is your skin burning or something?

I have not seen Jillian ridiculing your religion, stop ridiculing hers.

Jews never spell out the word god...it's part of their belief system.

OK.... fair enough. I honestly didnt even know Jillian was Jewish.

Jillian... Im sorry. BTW, I really wasnt trying to make fun... just trying to make a point.

But, I didnt know that.

BTW, can I ask why that is (the spelling)


Oh, and Grump.... why is it that you will redicule Lisa, and not give a shit about her beliefs but you run to Jillians defense? Just asking.

Because Jillian isn't ridiculing her I am. If Jillian was ridiculing her, all bets are off and I would not have come to Jillian's defense.

Plus, even though Lisa hasn't come right out and said it - although she has definitely alluded to it - religion is one of her main planks with regard to being anti abortion. If that is on the table, then I'll use that in my argument....

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

I have not seen Jillian ridiculing your religion, stop ridiculing hers.

Jews never spell out the word god...it's part of their belief system.

OK.... fair enough. I honestly didnt even know Jillian was Jewish.

Jillian... Im sorry. BTW, I really wasnt trying to make fun... just trying to make a point.

But, I didnt know that.

BTW, can I ask why that is (the spelling)


Oh, and Grump.... why is it that you will redicule Lisa, and not give a shit about her beliefs but you run to Jillians defense? Just asking.

Because Jillian isn't ridiculing her I am. If Jillian was ridiculing her, all bets are off and I would not have come to Jillian's defense.

Plus, even though Lisa hasn't come right out and said it - although she has definitely alluded to it - that religion is one of her main planks with regard to being anti abortion. If that is on the table, then I'll use that in my argument....

I was pro-life before I was Catholic, it is because I believe that every humans life is precious due to their humanity not because of being wanted, convienient, rich or poor, black or white,disabled or "normal".

 

[The Infidel]

Im outta here.... this debate is not fair because all ya want to is make us pro lifers seem intolerant and silly.

There's no sense in continuing because we will just go away mad, and I don't want that.

We are'nt going to change eachothers minds nor our hearts... only God can do that.

Good night Grump, and thanks for enlightening me on the Jewish beliefs. For that I owe ya.

 

[Care4all]

Absolutely not, Truth never does Christianity an injustice, as sinners we are supposed to repent and go and "sin no more". If you call evil good and good evil then in effect you have called truth a lie. We also have something called Rachels vineyard, these are women who have murdered their children by abortion, and they talk about that freely, you see they are able to heal when they face reality.In the Bible it said God knew you before you were in your mothers womb, and it also says he knitted you in your mothers womb. God is the God of life and the devil is a murderer from the very beginning, nothing has changed.

The adulteress, who according to the Law...was suppose to be killed for her sins, was FORGIVEN by Christ, before she was told to repent and sin no more....I repeat...she was forgiven BEFORE she was asked to repent....had you ever noticed that when reading this passage? Gosh, I love Christ! If all of us could only be more Christ like....

no one is calling evil good, at least not me, if that is what you are implying?

God formed Adam as well....but the Bible still says Adam did not have LIFE, until a breath was taken.

there is no arguing that a human's life begins at conception or pregnancy... according to all science...there is no question that this is a new baby to be, being formed, in its mother's womb imho...they just do not legally achieve person hood, with rights, until they are born according to our laws.

Truth is truth, yes it is....and what these women have done, is killed their unborn child....not murder....but carry on and say or act the way you do or want to....

I spoke out to you, as you say you are speaking out to those women who are aborting by calling them murderers and giving them no compassion....

btw what is the difference between you and those people who were getting ready to cast the first stone....? Are you sinless?

I sure am glad you are not God or Christ!

Now let me go count my blessings and give thanks to the Lord on that!

No I am not sinless, I call a spade a spade I do not white wash anything, Jeffery Dalmer dismembered human beings, he murdered them. The abortion doctor is paid by the mother to do the same thing. I am not PC, I wonder do you think there is any such thing as sin sin you do not have to say a sin is a sin or call it by another name?She was already sorry for her sins, Jesus did not say she did not have any sins. Which is what you seem to be doing, at a babies expense and womens expense.

nope, I am not...you can call abortion a sin, and to me, it is a sin, and a sad one at that....

but YOU throwing the murderer word around so freely is quite disturbing....do you do this so you can entice some loony toon to commit murder themselves by shooting the doctors or girls in the abortion clinics on the basis that they are justly killing/murdering... murderers?

I'll pass on that kinda stuff!

I am not certain she was already sorry for her sins....at least the Bible says no such thing....Perhaps we can presume she was but we do not know this....just as I think she was very grateful for Christ saving her life....and grateful for His forgiveness....we really can't prove that....but we can presume.....

I view it, that she had not felt sorry for the sin she had committed yet, when Christ intervened with the casting of stones....and maybe it took Him giving her forgiveness... before forgiveness was justly due... to change her, and deliver her unto repentance. I like to think that this kind and compassionate action of Christ, giving her forgiveness before it was even due, that made her love Him so much, for Him loving her so much to give this forgiveness....which lead to her to repenting and changing her lifestyle.

you know, when King David had his affair with Bathsheba, a married woman, and she got pregnant....he did not have her get an abortion....which were medicinally available at that time through specific herbs....but instead, he killed her husband...yet God kept him as King, and God did not have him killed for being a murderer? we all praise David as being the greatest King..... why? I'd say because he had more good (god) than evil (Devil) in him and was sorry for his own shortcomings and loved the Lord.

I think what you are doing is wrong Lisa....not the speaking out against abortions, but with you loosely using the label of murderers....I could be wrong, and all of this sanctimonious finger pointing and casting stones from you is fine and dandy with God/Christ, but my gut is telling me....that it would not be....

Care

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

The adulteress, who according to the Law...was suppose to be killed for her sins, was FORGIVEN by Christ, before she was told to repent and sin no more....I repeat...she was forgiven BEFORE she was asked to repent....had you ever noticed that when reading this passage? Gosh, I love Christ! If all of us could only be more Christ like....

no one is calling evil good, at least not me, if that is what you are implying?

God formed Adam as well....but the Bible still says Adam did not have LIFE, until a breath was taken.

there is no arguing that a human's life begins at conception or pregnancy... according to all science...there is no question that this is a new baby to be, being formed, in its mother's womb imho...they just do not legally achieve person hood, with rights, until they are born according to our laws.

Truth is truth, yes it is....and what these women have done, is killed their unborn child....not murder....but carry on and say or act the way you do or want to....

I spoke out to you, as you say you are speaking out to those women who are aborting by calling them murderers and giving them no compassion....

btw what is the difference between you and those people who were getting ready to cast the first stone....? Are you sinless?

I sure am glad you are not God or Christ!

Now let me go count my blessings and give thanks to the Lord on that!

No I am not sinless, I call a spade a spade I do not white wash anything, Jeffery Dalmer dismembered human beings, he murdered them. The abortion doctor is paid by the mother to do the same thing. I am not PC, I wonder do you think there is any such thing as sin sin you do not have to say a sin is a sin or call it by another name?She was already sorry for her sins, Jesus did not say she did not have any sins. Which is what you seem to be doing, at a babies expense and womens expense.

nope, I am not...you can call abortion a sin, and to me, it is a sin, and a sad one at that....

but YOU throwing the murderer word around so freely is quite disturbing....do you do this so you can entice some loony toon to commit murder themselves by shooting the doctors or girls in the abortion clinics on the basis that they are justly killing/murdering... murderers?

I'll pass on that kinda stuff!

I am not certain she was already sorry for her sins....at least the Bible says no such thing....Perhaps we can presume she was but we do not know this....just as I think she was very grateful for Christ saving her life....and grateful for His forgiveness....we really can't prove that....but we can presume.....

I view it, that she had not felt sorry for the sin she had committed yet, when Christ intervened with the casting of stones....and maybe it took Him giving her forgiveness... before forgiveness was justly due... to change her, and deliver her unto repentance. I like to think that this kind and compassionate action of Christ, giving her forgiveness before it was even due, that made her love Him so much, for Him loving her so much to give this forgiveness....which lead to her to repenting and changing her lifestyle.

you know, when King David had his affair with Bathsheba, a married woman, and she got pregnant....he did not have her get an abortion....which were medicinally available at that time through specific herbs....but instead, he killed her husband...yet God kept him as King, and God did not have him killed for being a murderer? we all praise David as being the greatest King..... why? I'd say because he had more good (god) than evil (Devil) in him and was sorry for his own shortcomings and loved the Lord.

I think what you are doing is wrong Lisa....not the speaking out against abortions, but with you loosely using the label of murderers....I could be wrong, and all of this sanctimonious finger pointing and casting stones from you is fine and dandy with God/Christ, but my gut is telling me....that it would not be....

Care

TO be pro-life is to be against murder of any kind, I deal with doctors who used to murder unborn children everyday, they do not do so any more and they have no qualms about saying what they were engaging in, I am not PC, and I am not hateful for refusing to be so. Why? Because I believe in forgiveness as well. I do not use the term loosely I use it honestly, because that is what happens in abortion. And if you get a chance to work with women who have had them and had people minimize the guilt they feel over what they are living with further alienating them from feeling that anyone understands, go to a couple of funerals of women who were told it was no big deal when they knew it was then you come back to me, with your comments, I will listen intently, the ones who have been freed from it know that they are worthy of Gods love despite the fact they murdered their child. The play with words is what has blinded so many girls and women into getting duped by abortion, and when they realize what has actually happened, what they deal with is much worse than the word to describe it.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

I will see you guys tomorrow It is after 12 here, I am off to bed. God Bless,Lisa

 

[Care4all]

No I am not sinless, I call a spade a spade I do not white wash anything, Jeffery Dalmer dismembered human beings, he murdered them. The abortion doctor is paid by the mother to do the same thing. I am not PC, I wonder do you think there is any such thing as sin sin you do not have to say a sin is a sin or call it by another name?She was already sorry for her sins, Jesus did not say she did not have any sins. Which is what you seem to be doing, at a babies expense and womens expense.

nope, I am not...you can call abortion a sin, and to me, it is a sin, and a sad one at that....

but YOU throwing the murderer word around so freely is quite disturbing....do you do this so you can entice some loony toon to commit murder themselves by shooting the doctors or girls in the abortion clinics on the basis that they are justly killing/murdering... murderers?

I'll pass on that kinda stuff!

I am not certain she was already sorry for her sins....at least the Bible says no such thing....Perhaps we can presume she was but we do not know this....just as I think she was very grateful for Christ saving her life....and grateful for His forgiveness....we really can't prove that....but we can presume.....

I view it, that she had not felt sorry for the sin she had committed yet, when Christ intervened with the casting of stones....and maybe it took Him giving her forgiveness... before forgiveness was justly due... to change her, and deliver her unto repentance. I like to think that this kind and compassionate action of Christ, giving her forgiveness before it was even due, that made her love Him so much, for Him loving her so much to give this forgiveness....which lead to her to repenting and changing her lifestyle.

you know, when King David had his affair with Bathsheba, a married woman, and she got pregnant....he did not have her get an abortion....which were medicinally available at that time through specific herbs....but instead, he killed her husband...yet God kept him as King, and God did not have him killed for being a murderer? we all praise David as being the greatest King..... why? I'd say because he had more good (god) than evil (Devil) in him and was sorry for his own shortcomings and loved the Lord.

I think what you are doing is wrong Lisa....not the speaking out against abortions, but with you loosely using the label of murderers....I could be wrong, and all of this sanctimonious finger pointing and casting stones from you is fine and dandy with God/Christ, but my gut is telling me....that it would not be....

Care

TO be pro-life is to be against murder of any kind, I deal with doctors who used to murder unborn children everyday, they do not do so any more and they have no qualms about saying what they were engaging in, I am not PC, and I am not hateful for refusing to be so. Why? Because I believe in forgiveness as well. I do not use the term loosely I use it honestly, because that is what happens in abortion. And if you get a chance to work with women who have had them and had people minimize the guilt they feel over what they are living with further alienating them from feeling that anyone understands, go to a couple of funerals of women who were told it was no big deal when they knew it was then you come back to me, with your comments, I will listen intently, the ones who have been freed from it know that they are worthy of Gods love despite the fact they murdered their child. The play with words is what has blinded so many girls and women into getting duped by abortion, and when they realize what has actually happened, what they deal with is much worse than the word to describe it.

i am not saying it is not a big deal....i have consoled a few girls that have had abortions, and councilled others contemplating it.

it is not as simple as you seem to think it is, and none of the girls were murderers....they terminated their unborn offspring. Some, felt remorse after wards, some felt nothing at all....numb....some carried the baggage a few decades....it really is not some kind of thing that these girls/women were rubbing their hands together chanting goodie goodie goodie, i get to murder my child to be today.....most did not view it as a child, but as a potential child.... murder takes malice....there was no malice from these girls towards their own offspring....they were just scared by it all...at least that is what it seemed.

so, do you call these repentant women that you know.... murderers... to their face? Do you rant in front of them about these other murderous women? If you do, you should stop, imo.

The Lord works in mysterious ways....He lets humans make mistakes sometimes, so that He can bring the sorrowful to Him....imo.

Care

 

[Care4all]

I will see you guys tomorrow It is after 12 here, I am off to bed. God Bless,Lisa

goodnight lisa...and welcome to the site.

 

[José]

Care4all...

I have a proposal that would prevent 99% of all abortions. Check it out:

When any clinic is contacted by a girl or woman wanting to abort they would get in touch with a government agency and social workers would have a long talk with her trying to change her mind and keep her baby.

If she simply does not want to raise the child as a last resort the social workers would ask her to give birth and immediately give the baby so that the state can raise him/her with a solemn promise that the child would never know who his/her mother was.

I'm sure this would prevent most abortions because no woman wants to kill her baby. If given any alternative they will accept it in a heartbeat.

 

[Bern80]

nope, I am not...you can call abortion a sin, and to me, it is a sin, and a sad one at that....

but YOU throwing the murderer word around so freely is quite disturbing....do you do this so you can entice some loony toon to commit murder themselves by shooting the doctors or girls in the abortion clinics on the basis that they are justly killing/murdering... murderers?

I'll pass on that kinda stuff!

I am not certain she was already sorry for her sins....at least the Bible says no such thing....Perhaps we can presume she was but we do not know this....just as I think she was very grateful for Christ saving her life....and grateful for His forgiveness....we really can't prove that....but we can presume.....

I view it, that she had not felt sorry for the sin she had committed yet, when Christ intervened with the casting of stones....and maybe it took Him giving her forgiveness... before forgiveness was justly due... to change her, and deliver her unto repentance. I like to think that this kind and compassionate action of Christ, giving her forgiveness before it was even due, that made her love Him so much, for Him loving her so much to give this forgiveness....which lead to her to repenting and changing her lifestyle.

you know, when King David had his affair with Bathsheba, a married woman, and she got pregnant....he did not have her get an abortion....which were medicinally available at that time through specific herbs....but instead, he killed her husband...yet God kept him as King, and God did not have him killed for being a murderer? we all praise David as being the greatest King..... why? I'd say because he had more good (god) than evil (Devil) in him and was sorry for his own shortcomings and loved the Lord.

I think what you are doing is wrong Lisa....not the speaking out against abortions, but with you loosely using the label of murderers....I could be wrong, and all of this sanctimonious finger pointing and casting stones from you is fine and dandy with God/Christ, but my gut is telling me....that it would not be....

Care

TO be pro-life is to be against murder of any kind, I deal with doctors who used to murder unborn children everyday, they do not do so any more and they have no qualms about saying what they were engaging in, I am not PC, and I am not hateful for refusing to be so. Why? Because I believe in forgiveness as well. I do not use the term loosely I use it honestly, because that is what happens in abortion. And if you get a chance to work with women who have had them and had people minimize the guilt they feel over what they are living with further alienating them from feeling that anyone understands, go to a couple of funerals of women who were told it was no big deal when they knew it was then you come back to me, with your comments, I will listen intently, the ones who have been freed from it know that they are worthy of Gods love despite the fact they murdered their child. The play with words is what has blinded so many girls and women into getting duped by abortion, and when they realize what has actually happened, what they deal with is much worse than the word to describe it.

i am not saying it is not a big deal....i have consoled a few girls that have had abortions, and councilled others contemplating it.

it is not as simple as you seem to think it is, and none of the girls were murderers....they terminated their unborn offspring. Some, felt remorse after wards, some felt nothing at all....numb....some carried the baggage a few decades....it really is not some kind of thing that these girls/women were rubbing their hands together chanting goodie goodie goodie, i get to murder my child to be today.....most did not view it as a child, but as a potential child.... murder takes malice....there was no malice from these girls towards their own offspring....they were just scared by it all...at least that is what it seemed.

so, do you call these repentant women that you know.... murderers... to their face? Do you rant in front of them about these other murderous women? If you do, you should stop, imo.

The Lord works in mysterious ways....He lets humans make mistakes sometimes, so that He can bring the sorrowful to Him....imo.

Care

I guess it depends on if you think a certan emotional state is a requirement for the act to be defined as murder. Personally, I don't. The only two pre-requisites I think there are are pre-meditation and the actual taking of the innocent human life. Abortion certainly meets the first pre-requisite. The second one is harder. When can a baby be defined as a human life? The point is, whenever that may be biologically, killing it after that point pre-meditatedally, is murder.

 

[Douger]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.
If abortion is murder...........fellatio is cannibalism ( provided she finishes the job)

 

[Bern80]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.
If abortion is murder...........fellatio is cannibalism ( provided she finishes the job)

Made me laugh. But no, it isn't.

 

[jillian]

I guess it depends on if you think a certan emotional state is a requirement for the act to be defined as murder. Personally, I don't. The only two pre-requisites I think there are are pre-meditation and the actual taking of the innocent human life. Abortion certainly meets the first pre-requisite. The second one is harder. When can a baby be defined as a human life? The point is, whenever that may be biologically, killing it after that point pre-meditatedally, is murder.

once again, "murder" is a specifically defined legal term. there are legitimate reasons to "kill" and we do so all the time... for food, for clothing, in self-defense, in defense of others and in defense of property. the same concept applies to saving a woman's life in the event she endures a pregnancy. if we can get that as an understanding, then we can move on.

i agree with you (bookmark this post, it may be a while before you see those words from me again ) in that life does exist on a continuum from zygote through birth. that part of the basis for Roe v Wade which has so far been ignored throughout this thread (although i may have missed it) is that the Court did a balancing test. It inquired, and rightfully so, as to when the government had the right to intervene in contravention of the wishes of the individual. It held that at a certain point in the pregnancy, the obligation of government to protect prospective life outweighed the woman's right to govern her own body. That is the ONLY holding of Roe v Wade. Everything else is dicta... a purely intellectual discussion to guide future generations, but not bind them. So, given that life exists on a contunuum, it appears to me that nothing has occurred to vitiate the Court's holding.

Life exists in many forms... human beings, not so much... just as an egg, even if it is fertilized, is not a chicken.

*edit* a murder conviction requires a finding of mens rea. even the original languate of the bible does not say "thou shalt not kill". it says "thou shalt not murder".