A Touchy Question On Gendercide Or In This Case Homocide

[CaféAuLait]

I agree, but what will be hard is determining if that is the case. What are you going to do? Make it illegal then ask "Are you doing this because it's a girl?"

The answer will be "noooo of course not sir, that's illegal". Once you realize that the choice is theirs to make, the reasoning no longer matters. Thats why I said I might not agree with gender specific abortions but I support a womans right to get one. Since I support that right, the reason doesnt have any effect on my support.

The proposed law read this way:

The legislation would have made it a federal offense, subject to up to five years in prison, to perform, solicit funds for or coerce a woman into having a sex-selection abortion. Bringing a woman into the country to obtain such an abortion would also be punishable by up to five years in prison. While doctors would not have an affirmative responsibility to ask a woman her motivations for an abortion, health workers could be imprisoned for up to a year for not reporting known or suspected violations of the ban on sex-based abortions.

Read more: House rejects gender-based abortion bill* - NY Daily News

I see nothing there when a doctor was forced to ask why, in fact the bill did not ask that the doctor ask the woman such. Just if they knew that was the reason it was illegal to perform the abortion with such knowledge.

Oh, you couldve just said witch hunt

Witch Hunt? Please. If a woman states her reasons for wanting to terminate a pregnancy because she is carrying a baby that is female, a gay child or a red-headed baby, etc... it should be illegal to do such. How you got witch hunt out of that is far beyond me.

 

[Neotrotsky]

It's clear Obama and many on the left don't care if people want to find out what sex their unborn baby is before deciding to abort them or not.

What if it's true that Homosexuality is really genetic?

What if they were to isolate that gene?

What if they were able to say definitively that their child is gonna be straight or Gay and people decided to abort the child accordingly?

What if people started using sexual orientation as a reason to snuff that unborn baby out of existence?

Would you feel the same way about Gendercide...or in this case Homocide.

Just asking.

No doubt all part of the Democrats
War on Women

Even Hillary Clinton told the New York Times in 2009, in “Saving the World’s Women"

“…Obviously, there’s work to be done in both India and China, because the infanticide rate of girl babies is still overwhelmingly high, and unfortunately with technology, parents are able to use sonograms to determine the sex of a baby, and to abort girl children simply because they’d rather have a boy.”​

If Hillary finds this objectionable in foreign countries, no doubt this practice of sex-selective abortions if it could be happening
here in the US and is even condoned by Planned Parenthood, which receives taxpayer funding,

must really upset her as well

 

[CaféAuLait]

It's clear Obama and many on the left don't care if people want to find out what sex their unborn baby is before deciding to abort them or not.

What if it's true that Homosexuality is really genetic?

What if they were to isolate that gene?

What if they were able to say definitively that their child is gonna be straight or Gay and people decided to abort the child accordingly?

What if people started using sexual orientation as a reason to snuff that unborn baby out of existence?

Would you feel the same way about Gendercide...or in this case Homocide.

Just asking.

No doubt all part of the Democrats
War on Women

Even Hillary Clinton told the New York Times in 2009, in “Saving the World’s Women"

“…Obviously, there’s work to be done in both India and China, because the infanticide rate of girl babies is still overwhelmingly high, and unfortunately with technology, parents are able to use sonograms to determine the sex of a baby, and to abort girl children simply because they’d rather have a boy.”​

If Hillary finds this objectionable in foreign countries, no doubt this practice of sex-selective abortions if it could be happening
here in the US and is even condoned by Planned Parenthood, which receives taxpayer funding,

must really upset her as well

Crazy that India had made it illegal ( gender selection) but the democrats in the house blocked it in the US.


The stats are insane:

A 2005 study estimated that over 90 million females were "missing" from the expected population in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, China, India, Pakistan, South Korea and Taiwan alone, and suggested that sex-selective abortion plays a role in this deficit.[2][5] India's 2011 census shows a serious decline in the number of girls under the age of seven - activists believe eight million female fetuses may have been aborted between 2001 and 2011.[6]

Sex-selective abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ClosedCaption]

The proposed law read this way:

Read more: House rejects gender-based abortion bill* - NY Daily News

I see nothing there when a doctor was forced to ask why, in fact the bill did not ask that the doctor ask the woman such. Just if they knew that was the reason it was illegal to perform the abortion with such knowledge.

Oh, you couldve just said witch hunt

Witch Hunt? Please. If a woman states her reasons for wanting to terminate a pregnancy because she is carrying a baby that is female, a gay child or a red-headed baby, etc... it should be illegal to do such. How you got witch hunt out of that is far beyond me.

But this law would do nothing to stop that because once it becomes law, will anyone admit to it? No.

But there is the second part of the law..which says that if a worker suspects that a woman is doing it for that reason and doesnt report it they can be jailed. So witch hunt is apt. No one has to do it, the worker can just "suspect" that is the case. Get it...No proof.

 

[koshergrl]

All this has shit to do with if a woman wants to do it for her reasoning, her reasoning has shit to do with your reasoning

So her reasoning could be to get pregnant and abort a perfectly healthy baby over and over until she gets the 'right' one?

It could be...not saying its right but people will always abuse laws on the books. Just like people will run red lights if they want to but traffic lights aren't bad.

It's illegal to run red lights. Your parallel is false. The proper comparison would be "just like people will run red lights if they want but the law that makes it illegal isn't bad."

 

[Unkotare]

I agree, but what will be hard is determining if that is the case. What are you going to do? Make it illegal then ask "Are you doing this because it's a girl?"

The answer will be "noooo of course not sir, that's illegal". Once you realize that the choice is theirs to make, the reasoning no longer matters. Thats why I said I might not agree with gender specific abortions but I support a womans right to get one. Since I support that right, the reason doesnt have any effect on my support.

Lefties tend to be such moral cowards on this issue.

I see you've given up the debate route and have chosen the "nananaboo boo" debate tactic. See, when you cannot think through your own solutions it's not my problem, you didnt think it through

You talk of 'giving up the debate' right after you say "the reasoning no longer matters"? You prove my point.

 

[Unkotare]

Yes but that is because I support all abortion not just one type over another.

So you think it's just fine to abort a baby because it's a girl? That seems like an acceptable moral 'choice' to you?

Which reasons for abortion do you personally consider 'morally acceptable'?

Are you answering a question with a question?

 

[JoeB131]

It's clear Obama and many on the left don't care if people want to find out what sex their unborn baby is before deciding to abort them or not.

What if it's true that Homosexuality is really genetic?

What if they were to isolate that gene?

What if they were able to say definitively that their child is gonna be straight or Gay and people decided to abort the child accordingly?

What if people started using sexual orientation as a reason to snuff that unborn baby out of existence?

Would you feel the same way about Gendercide...or in this case Homocide.

Just asking.

I think this is another attempt to try to make hay on this issue.

While some cultures like China or India do perform sex selection abortions, the fact is, Americans just don't do that kind of thing. No one has an abortion in the fifth month over sex selection in this country. Sorry, just doesn't happen.

I mean, it amazes me that you guys even try to trot out these same tired arguments every few years.

This issue has been litigated. You lost. Time to move on.

 

[koshergrl]

"Americans just don't do that kind of thing"...seriously?

Here's the deal...there's no oversight of PP. You loons claim that there are no abuses, because there are no stats to confirm...yet everybody openly admits that there are NO RELIABLE STATS IN THE FIRST PLACE. You're just taking the word of PP goons.

When people come forward to say "I witnessed this" or "I witnessed that" you shriek "You're a liar! There is no evidence!" except what the witnesses say and record....

And of course there's no other evidence because PP is a sacred cow and no oversight is tolerated.
It's a joke.

 

[tinydancer]

It's clear Obama and many on the left don't care if people want to find out what sex their unborn baby is before deciding to abort them or not.

What if it's true that Homosexuality is really genetic?

What if they were to isolate that gene?

What if they were able to say definitively that their child is gonna be straight or Gay and people decided to abort the child accordingly?

What if people started using sexual orientation as a reason to snuff that unborn baby out of existence?

Would you feel the same way about Gendercide...or in this case Homocide.

Just asking.

I think this is another attempt to try to make hay on this issue.

While some cultures like China orindia do perform sex selection abortions, the fact is, Americans just don't do that kind of thing. No one has an abortion in the fifth month over sex selection in this country. Sorry, just doesn't happen.

I mean, it amazes me that you guys even try to trot out these same tired arguments every few years.

This issue has been litigated. You lost. Time to move on.

Oh and whoopsies from this post...

India has connected the dots and have banned abortion based of female feticid for many many years now. . Pelosi et al on the other hand subscribe to the Dr. Megele

 

[Unkotare]

the fact is, Americans just don't do that kind of thing.

Leaving aside how illogical that statement was, it is also obviously inaccurate.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Fetal Pain, stress, ect:

Fetal development of the thalamus occurs
much earlier than the sensory cortex,26-28 but functional evidence
for thalamic sensory processing will require novel
neuroimaging techniques29 or the recording of thalamic field
potentials24 from fetuses. If cortical activity is not required for
pain perception in adults, why should it be a necessary criterion
for fetuses? Despite this caveat, robust cortical activity
occurs in preterm neonates exposed to tactile or painful stimuli,
30 which may be correlates of sensory content or its context
and certainly imply conscious perception.

http://anes-som.ucsd.edu/VP Articles/Topic C. Anand.pdf


Such states what you do and more, they also state that they are not sure and there are many more factors. it also states that fetal stress is real and felt far earlier than 28 weeks. If you had a child prematurely and decided to assure that child lived would you allow the doctor to cut the infant open without pain medications? Perhaps the infant needed an operation at 25 weeks would you believe that this baby can’t feel what the doctors are doing?

You neglected to post the first part of that paragraph, which is integral for context:

Some argue that activation of the sensory cortex is a necessary
criterion for pain “perception” to occur in the fetus,
citing the lack of evidence for pain-specific thalamocortical
connections in fetal life.6 This line of reasoning, however,
ignores clinical data showing that ablation or stimulation of
the primary somatosensory cortex does not alter pain perception
in adults, whereas thalamic ablation or stimulation
does

And yes, without a thalamus, the baby would not be able to perceive pain.

You can tell yourself over and over that "its not a human being until xx point of development". ... your subconscious says otherwise.

They are human beings regardless of what developmental stage they are in.

 

[ClosedCaption]

So her reasoning could be to get pregnant and abort a perfectly healthy baby over and over until she gets the 'right' one?

It could be...not saying its right but people will always abuse laws on the books. Just like people will run red lights if they want to but traffic lights aren't bad.

It's illegal to run red lights. Your parallel is false. The proper comparison would be "just like people will run red lights if they want but the law that makes it illegal isn't bad."

Ok great, now try crafting a point of your own

 

[JoeB131]

"Americans just don't do that kind of thing"...seriously?

Here's the deal...there's no oversight of PP. You loons claim that there are no abuses, because there are no stats to confirm...yet everybody openly admits that there are NO RELIABLE STATS IN THE FIRST PLACE. You're just taking the word of PP goons.

When people come forward to say "I witnessed this" or "I witnessed that" you shriek "You're a liar! There is no evidence!" except what the witnesses say and record....

And of course there's no other evidence because PP is a sacred cow and no oversight is tolerated.
It's a joke.

Well, here's the thing.

You can't tell the gender of a fetus until about the fifth month of pregnancy. About 18-22 months into the pregnancy.

Telling Your Baby's Sex by Ultrasound

If you have chosen to find out the sex of your baby, you are most likely going to do so via ultrasound. Typically an ultrasound is done for this purpose around the midpoint in pregnancy. It is technically called the fetal anatomy survey and it is done to look for fetal anomalies and not simply the sex of the baby. Most women will have one between 18-22 weeks of pregnancy.

Now, even this anti-Abortion website admits that most abortions happen before the 18th week.

Abortion Statistics

At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

So we've already established that 95-99% of abortions occur well before the woman can even TELL what gender the fetus is.

So that would already indicate that there simply isn't much sex selection abortion going on in this country. But I'm sure you'd like to think there is because, hey, you think abortion is wrong and evil and an affront to your Invisible Sky Pixie and all that.

I have to kind of go with these things called facts and probabilities.

 

[JoeB131]

the fact is, Americans just don't do that kind of thing.

Leaving aside how illogical that statement was, it is also obviously inaccurate.

See the post above, dumbass... then get back to me.

Only 1% of abortions are performed after the 20th week. Most of those are for valid medical reasons. (No one goes through 5 months of pregnancy without getting the payoff.)

 

[koshergrl]

"Americans just don't do that kind of thing"...seriously?

Here's the deal...there's no oversight of PP. You loons claim that there are no abuses, because there are no stats to confirm...yet everybody openly admits that there are NO RELIABLE STATS IN THE FIRST PLACE. You're just taking the word of PP goons.

When people come forward to say "I witnessed this" or "I witnessed that" you shriek "You're a liar! There is no evidence!" except what the witnesses say and record....

And of course there's no other evidence because PP is a sacred cow and no oversight is tolerated.
It's a joke.

Well, here's the thing.

You can't tell the gender of a fetus until about the fifth month of pregnancy. About 18-22 months into the pregnancy.

Telling Your Baby's Sex by Ultrasound

If you have chosen to find out the sex of your baby, you are most likely going to do so via ultrasound. Typically an ultrasound is done for this purpose around the midpoint in pregnancy. It is technically called the fetal anatomy survey and it is done to look for fetal anomalies and not simply the sex of the baby. Most women will have one between 18-22 weeks of pregnancy.

Now, even this anti-Abortion website admits that most abortions happen before the 18th week.

Abortion Statistics

At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

So we've already established that 95-99% of abortions occur well before the woman can even TELL what gender the fetus is.

So that would already indicate that there simply isn't much sex selection abortion going on in this country. But I'm sure you'd like to think there is because, hey, you think abortion is wrong and evil and an affront to your Invisible Sky Pixie and all that.

I have to kind of go with these things called facts and probabilities.

You need to listen carefully. Guttmacher, the CDC and even planned parenthood plant disclaimers discreetly all over their sites that state that they don't have real stats because so many states aren't required to report, and because PP doesn't report truthfully.

Which is why those numbers mean exactly squat.

And is why they are fighting so hard NOT to use ultrasound methods to determine fetal age. They LIE about fetal age all the time, because it's fairly fuzzy. The ultrasound will pinpoint it, and make it almost impossible for them to lie to women and to staticians the ages of the babies they're killing.

 

[koshergrl]

the fact is, Americans just don't do that kind of thing.

Leaving aside how illogical that statement was, it is also obviously inaccurate.

See the post above, dumbass... then get back to me.

Only 1% of abortions are performed after the 20th week. Most of those are for valid medical reasons. (No one goes through 5 months of pregnancy without getting the payoff.)

"4 states require providers to report whether the fetus was viable.
 14 states require providers to indicate if the state mandates for abortion counseling and parental involvement were satisfied.
 8 states require providers to report whether state-mandated counseling was provided.
 12 states require providers to report whether state requirements for parental involvement were met."

There's your garbage stats. Guttmacher, the CDC and PP are all highly motivated to lie, and they admit on their own sites that they don't have anything like representative numbers.

http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_ARR.pdf

 

[ClosedCaption]

Lefties tend to be such moral cowards on this issue.

I see you've given up the debate route and have chosen the "nananaboo boo" debate tactic. See, when you cannot think through your own solutions it's not my problem, you didnt think it through

You talk of 'giving up the debate' right after you say "the reasoning no longer matters"? You prove my point.

what point? Did you make a point somewhere?

 

[Unkotare]

the fact is, Americans just don't do that kind of thing.

Leaving aside how illogical that statement was, it is also obviously inaccurate.

See the post above, dumbass...

The post where you started qualifying your previously categorical statement? Yeah, I saw that.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So you think it's just fine to abort a baby because it's a girl? That seems like an acceptable moral 'choice' to you?

Which reasons for abortion do you personally consider 'morally acceptable'?

Are you answering a question with a question?

You didn't ask me. I'm asking your opinion. If you're afraid to state your opinion, fine. That's very common around here among the rightwingers, for some strange reason.