A solution to:

[YoursTruly]

Let's just have a conversation. Shall we?

I'd like to start a series of conversations on separate issues that Americans face, to see if the right, left and independents can come together and solve. A conversation amongst adults and adult minded people, without the constant childish bickering that goes on about how bad one side is over the other.
Are we better than the lobbyist owned politicians that run this country? Can we, collectively, come up with actual solutions? I guess we'll see soon enough.

The first topic is police reform. Not whether there should be police reform or not. But reform in a way that benefits the actual innocent people. IMO, there is still too much police brutality in this country towards innocent people. I'm not talking about police brutality against thugs, thieves, murderers, druggies. But actual innocent people.

Here's a few rules to help guide our way.
1. No blaming one side or the other for things that happened in the past, starting with yesterday. Not one of us
Was there and involved in any of these incidences.
2. No discussion of race. Being a bad person is a human nature trait, not a racial one.
3. If someone points out a benefit or a flaw in our current system, before you reply, please be adult enough to try and understand where they're coming from before you object.
4. If the discussion leads to actual criminals, and what the police did to brutalize them, note that if they had not been committing criminal activity, the cops wouldn't have been there in the first place. That should not dismiss the cops brutality. But it does show the reason why they had to be in contact if the officers.

Example: Tamir Rice. Shot within just a few seconds of the police car coming into view of the camera. Totally unjustified. Questions and a break down of this situation would be:

1. Why did the officer shoot so quickly?
2. Did the driver of the car put the other officer in danger, by not stopping at a safe distance, which put the shooting officer
In what could've been a deadly situation for him, had Tamir's gun been real, and Tamir been a violent thug? The shooting
Officer had no way of knowing anything at the time.
3. The 911 operator didn't report to the responding officers that the gun may be a toy, as the 911 caller suggested?

The minor details in all of these incidences should not be overlooked. Because police training lacks all or most of those minor details. Which are by far the most important in all police interactions. Good or bad.
P.S. I'm not wanting another discussion about Tamir Rice. I mentioned that incident only as an example of things to consider when discussion solutions to the police brutality problem we do have in this country.


Let's dance.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

1. Training
2. Higher pay to draw more than just the desperate or power minded.
3. Independent agency to inspect every arrest/major interaction.
4. Annual reviews of each officer by the above agency.

 

[YoursTruly]

1. Agreed
2. Higher pay doesn't normally equate to better people. But lower pay does sometime exclude good people.

3. As long as the independent agency stays independent and free of coercion and corruption.
4. IIRC, that's already in effect.

I'd like to add something about the power of the police unions. They seem to have a stranglehold on the governments that employ officers.

 

[task0778]

It is my opinion that the police unions are too often in bed with the local and state politicians (mostly democrats) that protect the police too much when it comes to police misconduct. Same with the teacher's unions too, getting rid of a bad cop or a bad teacher ought to be done with the correct due process but union contracts and state and local laws shouldn't make it all but impossible either. The cops do need a certain amount of leeway when determining innocence or guilt, but total immunity isn't right either. So I think one possibility is to sever the link between public unions and politicians at every level. We shouldn't allow campaign contributions by unions in any way to political campaigns or parties. Nor PACs and Super PACs either.

 

[harmonica]

Let's just have a conversation. Shall we?

I'd like to start a series of conversations on separate issues that Americans face, to see if the right, left and independents can come together and solve. A conversation amongst adults and adult minded people, without the constant childish bickering that goes on about how bad one side is over the other.
Are we better than the lobbyist owned politicians that run this country? Can we, collectively, come up with actual solutions? I guess we'll see soon enough.

The first topic is police reform. Not whether there should be police reform or not. But reform in a way that benefits the actual innocent people. IMO, there is still too much police brutality in this country towards innocent people. I'm not talking about police brutality against thugs, thieves, murderers, druggies. But actual innocent people.

Here's a few rules to help guide our way.
1. No blaming one side or the other for things that happened in the past, starting with yesterday. Not one of us
Was there and involved in any of these incidences.
2. No discussion of race. Being a bad person is a human nature trait, not a racial one.
3. If someone points out a benefit or a flaw in our current system, before you reply, please be adult enough to try and understand where they're coming from before you object.
4. If the discussion leads to actual criminals, and what the police did to brutalize them, note that if they had not been committing criminal activity, the cops wouldn't have been there in the first place. That should not dismiss the cops brutality. But it does show the reason why they had to be in contact if the officers.

Example: Tamir Rice. Shot within just a few seconds of the police car coming into view of the camera. Totally unjustified. Questions and a break down of this situation would be:

1. Why did the officer shoot so quickly?
2. Did the driver of the car put the other officer in danger, by not stopping at a safe distance, which put the shooting officer
In what could've been a deadly situation for him, had Tamir's gun been real, and Tamir been a violent thug? The shooting
Officer had no way of knowing anything at the time.
3. The 911 operator didn't report to the responding officers that the gun may be a toy, as the 911 caller suggested?

The minor details in all of these incidences should not be overlooked. Because police training lacks all or most of those minor details. Which are by far the most important in all police interactions. Good or bad.
P.S. I'm not wanting another discussion about Tamir Rice. I mentioned that incident only as an example of things to consider when discussion solutions to the police brutality problem we do have in this country.


Let's dance.

stop right there--there is no need for police reform...the blacks need to reform--they commit crime at HIGH rates and graduate at low rates--there--facts--mature
no discussion on race ???????????!!!!!!!!! that's what the reform is all about!!!!

 

[Otis Mayfield]

I think police have learned their lesson for the most part.

When was the last time you heard of an unarmed black man being shot down?

It's been months.

 

[harmonica]

Let's just have a conversation. Shall we?

I'd like to start a series of conversations on separate issues that Americans face, to see if the right, left and independents can come together and solve. A conversation amongst adults and adult minded people, without the constant childish bickering that goes on about how bad one side is over the other.
Are we better than the lobbyist owned politicians that run this country? Can we, collectively, come up with actual solutions? I guess we'll see soon enough.

The first topic is police reform. Not whether there should be police reform or not. But reform in a way that benefits the actual innocent people. IMO, there is still too much police brutality in this country towards innocent people. I'm not talking about police brutality against thugs, thieves, murderers, druggies. But actual innocent people.

Here's a few rules to help guide our way.
1. No blaming one side or the other for things that happened in the past, starting with yesterday. Not one of us
Was there and involved in any of these incidences.
2. No discussion of race. Being a bad person is a human nature trait, not a racial one.
3. If someone points out a benefit or a flaw in our current system, before you reply, please be adult enough to try and understand where they're coming from before you object.
4. If the discussion leads to actual criminals, and what the police did to brutalize them, note that if they had not been committing criminal activity, the cops wouldn't have been there in the first place. That should not dismiss the cops brutality. But it does show the reason why they had to be in contact if the officers.

Example: Tamir Rice. Shot within just a few seconds of the police car coming into view of the camera. Totally unjustified. Questions and a break down of this situation would be:

1. Why did the officer shoot so quickly?
2. Did the driver of the car put the other officer in danger, by not stopping at a safe distance, which put the shooting officer
In what could've been a deadly situation for him, had Tamir's gun been real, and Tamir been a violent thug? The shooting
Officer had no way of knowing anything at the time.
3. The 911 operator didn't report to the responding officers that the gun may be a toy, as the 911 caller suggested?

The minor details in all of these incidences should not be overlooked. Because police training lacks all or most of those minor details. Which are by far the most important in all police interactions. Good or bad.
P.S. I'm not wanting another discussion about Tamir Rice. I mentioned that incident only as an example of things to consider when discussion solutions to the police brutality problem we do have in this country.


Let's dance.

.....here it is again--you people are thinking in TV/movie terms--you are not thinking realistically
.....I've been over this many times ......interacting with humans is not like making a cheese sandwich --it's very dynamic/etc

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Unions in general are just BAD imo. They are self serving and typically go to any length to empower themselves.

Years ago I had my business picketed by them because I refused to sign on after a RIDICULOUS buy out offer. After that they picketed me on a commercial job. A job that I remodeled EVERY WINTER to update it to the new spring line of products.
As a result the company opted to import a company from Poland to do all their work to avoid bad publicity.

FUCK THE UNIONS

 

[harmonica]

I think police have learned their lesson for the most part.

When was the last time you heard of an unarmed black man being shot down?

It's been months.

hahahhaha
1. EXACTLY--because it is rare for them to shoot blacks
2. that's what they said after Mike Brown, then Sterling, the FGray, etc etc etc
3. the police don't have a lesson to learn--they do nothing wrong 99.9999% of the time....the CRIMINALS should learn

 

[harmonica]

1. Training
2. Higher pay to draw more than just the desperate or power minded.
3. Independent agency to inspect every arrest/major interaction.
4. Annual reviews of each officer by the above agency.

wrong ---I've been over this before ----you can train forever and pay them MILLIONS--you can't stop humans from being human
...pilots train and make a LOT more than police--yet they make mistakes that kill HUNDREDS
.....the military trains and you never know how people will react under fire
etc
again, there is no need for police reform.......I've got a thread on it with the facts/stats/etc
there are over 10 MILLION arrests per year
MILLIONS more police contacts
MILLIONS more traffic stops

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

wrong ---I've been over this before ----you can train forever and pay them MILLIONS--you can't stop humans from being human
...pilots train and make a LOT more than police--yet they make mistakes that kill HUNDREDS
.....the military trains and you never know how people will react under fire
etc
again, there is no need for police reform.......I've got a thread on it with the facts/stats/etc
there are over 10 MILLION arrests per year
MILLIONS more police contacts
MILLIONS more traffic stops

You have your opinion I have mine.

 

[YoursTruly]

hahahhaha
1. EXACTLY--because it is rare for them to shoot blacks
2. that's what they said after Mike Brown, then Sterling, the FGray, etc etc etc
3. the police don't have a lesson to learn--they do nothing wrong 99.9999% of the time....the CRIMINALS should learn

I gotta agree with you on this. Too many times people overlook the responsibility of the citizens to act normal, not break any major laws or create victims. When they don't, suddenly their criminal behavior is overlooked because the cop shot him.
That's totally not the police brutality I'm hoping to get discussed here.
Fact: No one really cares about the thugs getting killed, when other thugs are doing the killing.

 

[YoursTruly]

wrong ---I've been over this before ----you can train forever and pay them MILLIONS--you can't stop humans from being human
...pilots train and make a LOT more than police--yet they make mistakes that kill HUNDREDS
.....the military trains and you never know how people will react under fire
etc
again, there is no need for police reform.......I've got a thread on it with the facts/stats/etc
there are over 10 MILLION arrests per year
MILLIONS more police contacts
MILLIONS more traffic stops

A lot of those interactions with the police is due to revenue generation that's put on them by their superiors, as a means to balance the city budget. I consider this a lower form of police brutality.

The dangers in the jobs that police are doing, is real. There's no doubt about that. When dealing with thugs, and hardened criminals (and druggies), the danger is there before the cops says hello. That's a fact.

But what about those that aren't actually a threat, and wouldn't be one if the cop was more honest? Say like when a cop plants drugs on someone, and the now suspect get's all bent out of shape cause he knows he's innocent? The obvious answer is for the suspect to just take getting cuffed and jailed. Then fight it out in court. But that's a losing situation, unless there happens to be honest superiors who'll understand the suspect point of view and investigate the officer.
As minimal as a drug planting cop may be, the suspect, known by his friends and family for not being a drug user, is going to spread the word about the crooked cop. Now the whole police force is distrusted and even an enemy by all those the suspect knows.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

wrong ---I've been over this before ----you can train forever and pay them MILLIONS--you can't stop humans from being human
...pilots train and make a LOT more than police--yet they make mistakes that kill HUNDREDS
.....the military trains and you never know how people will react under fire
etc
again, there is no need for police reform.......I've got a thread on it with the facts/stats/etc
there are over 10 MILLION arrests per year
MILLIONS more police contacts
MILLIONS more traffic stops

And just to be clear, I am probably one of the FEW on this board who has had extensive interactions with them.

I have been BEAT.
I have had my house and my car ILLEGALLY searched.
I have had judges demand police intake camera footage for hearings. Footage that always disappears when they are in the wrong.
I have been hauled off to jail for BULLSHIT.

Don't fucking tell me the training us enough because it CLEARLY isn't.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Probably around 30 trips to jail. Countless harassment interactions because when they run my name my prison record pops up. Being threatened both physically and criminally.

Couple points....

1. When blacks claim it is because of skin color I can tell you to FUCK RIGHT OFF WITH THAT BULLSHIT. It is based on my record and how I conducted myself.

2. The right to a near drop out level lawyer does no one any good when their life is on the line. (No cash bail is not the answer) Even when my wealthy grandmother bailed me out I want right back to my element.

3. When someone's future (promotions) is tied to their arrest record/conviction then partiality goes right out the window

 

[YoursTruly]

Short story, from a personal experience less than a year ago.

Elderly man abused and robbed by his daughter. She's a 55yr old drug addict loser. Like a complete loser.
Cops pick her and her boyfriend up at a motel, and retrieve $375 of the $1000 she stole from her dad.
When I finally got through to the chief of police for a discussion about this, I asked about the drugs that were found at the scene. He said no drugs were recovered. I advised him that if the report shows there was no drugs found at the scene, then he might want to drug test his officers.
He took real offence to my statement and gave me a warning about showing my face in his town.
By then, the election had already come and the new chief had not taken office yet.
When he did, he drug tested all the city officers. One of the officers that found the woman, tested positive for meth. Which was the womans choice of drugs.

The point: Police reform is needed. Cops are human, that's a fact. But a LOT of humans are criminals. So if the cops are going to act like humans, instead of decent police officers, then reform is HIGHLY needed.

 

[YoursTruly]

Probably around 30 trips to jail. Countless harassment interactions because when they run my name my prison record pops up. Being threatened both physically and criminally.

Couple points....

1. When blacks claim it is because of skin color I can tell you to FUCK RIGHT OFF WITH THAT BULLSHIT. It is based on my record and how I conducted myself.

2. The right to a near drop out level lawyer does no one any good when their life is on the line. (No cash bail is not the answer) Even when my wealthy grandmother bailed me out I want right back to my element.

3. When someone's future (promotions) is tied to their arrest record/conviction then partiality goes right out the window

Agreed on all points. But lets try to keep race out of this. I know, us white folks get labeled all sort of ridiculous things. But still. Since we're all in the same boat, explaining what happens is enough to show it happens to both minorities and majorities.

 

[YoursTruly]

stop right there--there is no need for police reform...the blacks need to reform--they commit crime at HIGH rates and graduate at low rates--there--facts--mature
no discussion on race ???????????!!!!!!!!! that's what the reform is all about!!!!

And whites don't? Being a druggies or a criminal isn't because of your race. It never has been. So try not playing the race card. We're all controlled by the same system.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Agreed on all points. But lets try to keep race out of this. I know, us white folks get labeled all sort of ridiculous things. But still. Since we're all in the same boat, explaining what happens is enough to show it happens to both minorities and majorities.

It just pisses me off. My life experiences tell me their talking points are bullshit

 

[YoursTruly]

It just pisses me off. My life experiences tell me their talking points are bullshit

A lot of them are. But they're are just worried about "their kind." And not so much as to what's happening with everyone. But the fact of it all is, we're all affected by the same system, and the same types of officers. I think it's just a matter of the blacks not knowing how whites are also affected the same way.
And not why I started this thread. Having an open dialog about how we're all affected might help change the way we all view each other as equals who are fighting the same system equally. And that it's not systemic racism. But more of a systemic bad cop problem.
I've had a few bad cop situations. Cop trying to cut me off, so that I'd run my semi into the back of a crackerjack box on wheels. And then calling my company trying to get me fired. And when he was exposed, his commanding officer tried to cover it all up. That's one of the minimal incidences I care to mention here.