A scientific dissent from Darwinism

[rightwinger]

Didn't you know? The strata are messed up. There are fossils from other time periods where they don't belong. The geologic column, which is what you are referring to, is a joke. And how did all of those fossils get buried in the first place? The only explanation is a catastrophic event, like Noah's flood. Otherwise, there would be few, if any, fossils.

If you really need to think "the strata are messed up" you don't have to resort to the Bible. There have been many catastrophic events much worse than a flood.

Super volcanoes:
There are 6 Remaining Supervolcanoes on Earth. They Can Blow At Any Time.

Huge Asteroids
Asteroid Impacts: 10 Biggest Known Hits

So do you think all those catastrophic events happened in the last 10 thousand years?

The geologic column spans the entire globe. There are sedimentary layers that are continuous across several countries. Only a massive flood could account for this. Ask any geologist. Now, the fossils found in these intact layers are in the wrong layers. Some are found in both earlier and later fossil layers. In other words, there are fossils found in sedimentary layers that are supposed to belong in a deeper layer, when they supposedly went extinct.

An ancient ocean could account for that

 

[LittleNipper]

The rock strata only proves that the FLOOD had depth and occurred in stages and wasn't simply water sloshing about. Bigger animals are going to be easier to discover than average sized ones. Humans are going to try to climb out of harm's way. Creatures that ended up floating on top would be the ones that would rot away without a trace. Water organisms are going to be more prevalent and would be first to get buried in the silt and any churning muck. The Bible declares that the original creation of GOD was GOOD. The Fall of man brings about corruption, change and death. The Flood brought about total destruction, much oblivian, and a change in the surface of the entire Earth ---- likely the end result of the universal shakeup of the entire creation (including the solar system, galaxies, and the universe). I personally believe that even the moon was likely once smooth and not pocked. And meteors and asteroids did not exist... Strata is most likely the combination of multiple events --- preFlood creation, meteoric collisions, comet impacts, volcanic upheavals, and the Flood's subsidence. And then we have thousands of years of post Flood events that add their own confusion to the mix.

And frankly, there is also the interference of Satan himself. Do you really imagine that he would not try his best to interfere with man's understanding? Does Satan want man to repent and believe GOD? Why wouldn't he make things difficult or give man a counterfeit "creation" story to eliminate GOD. So, finally it comes down to believing GOD by FAITH and not seeking after signs... All the proof in the world will not save anyone if that one rejects GOD. Satan has lost the battle when Christ died on the cross; however, he was the original cherub that GOD placed in charge of the material world and particularly the Earth. So GOD allowed satan to bring the Flood and Satan orchestrated it to his advantage; however, GOD revealed to us what actually happened in His word. Satan is still presently the author of confusion and is still attempting to manipulate the data. What are you going to trust?

You are assuming the existence of God in order to prove the existence of God. It is no proof when you axiomatically assume the very thing you are trying to prove.

God exists because His Holy Spirit through the Lord Jesus Christ/Messiah has changed how I perceive things. I'm assuming nothing. As a child realizes his father, or a lamb recognizes its shepherd, so I know my Lord is real and loves me.

 

[LittleNipper]

Prove that evolution is entirely factual.

No question evolution occurs
No evidence of god

Prove it!

OK

Just look at rock strata and fossil evidence

At low levels there are only simple organisms
As you move up the strata, more complex organisms appear

Blows your biblical version apart....Your turn
Provide proof of God

The rock strata only proves that the FLOOD had depth and occurred in stages and wasn't simply water sloshing about. Bigger animals are going to be easier to discover than average sized ones. Humans are going to try to climb out of harm's way. Creatures that ended up floating on top would be the ones that would rot away without a trace. Water organisms are going to be more prevalent and would be first to get buried in the silt and any churning muck. The Bible declares that the original creation of GOD was GOOD. The Fall of man brings about corruption, change and death. The Flood brought about total destruction, much oblivian, and a change in the surface of the entire Earth ---- likely the end result of the universal shakeup of the entire creation (including the solar system, galaxies, and the universe). I personally believe that even the moon was likely once smooth and not pocked. And meteors and asteroids did not exist... Strata is most likely the combination of multiple events --- preFlood creation, meteoric collisions, comet impacts, volcanic upheavals, and the Flood's subsidence. And then we have thousands of years of post Flood events that add their own confusion to the mix.

And frankly, there is also the interference of Satan himself. Do you really imagine that he would not try his best to interfere with man's understanding? Does Satan want man to repent and believe GOD? Why wouldn't he make things difficult or give man a counterfeit "creation" story to eliminate GOD. So, finally it comes down to believing GOD by FAITH and not seeking after signs... All the proof in the world will not save anyone if that one rejects GOD. Satan has lost the battle when Christ died on the cross; however, he was the original cherub that GOD placed in charge of the material world and particularly the Earth. So GOD allowed satan to bring the Flood and Satan orchestrated it to his advantage; however, GOD revealed to us what actually happened in His word. Satan is still presently the author of confusion and is still attempting to manipulate the data. What are you going to trust?

Wrong again Nips

The flood would have deposited a single layer of mud and sediment that would be filled with the remains of all the animals and people that God killed
If there had been a flood like the Bible said, there would be a massive strata full of lions, tigers, dinosaurs, people,birds, snakes, unicorns and troglodytes

Various events at the start of the FLOOD, during the FLOOD, as the FLOOD progressed, and as the FLOOD subsided would have created layering.

The Boneyards: Excerpts from "Earth in Upheaval", by Velikovsky ...PAGE 5

"And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark". Genesis 7

"The great problem for geological theories to explain is that amazing phenomenon, the mingling of the remains of animals of different species and climates, discovered in exhaustless quantities in the interior parts of the earth so that the exuviae of those genera which no longer exist at all, are found confusedly mixed together in the soils of the most northerly latitudes. . . . The bones of those animals which can live only in the torrid zone are buried in the frozen soil of the polar regions.

And to quote one more contemporary, George Fairholme, who described similar evidence in Italy from the Arno River Valley:

In this sandy matrix bones were found at every depth from that of a few feet to a hundred feet or more. From the large and more apparent bones of the elephant, the rhinoceros, the megatherium, the elk, the buffalo, the stag, and so forth, naturalists were led by the elaborate studies of Cuvier and other comparative anatomists to the remains of the now living bear, tiger, wolf, hyena, rabbit, and finally the more minute remains even of the water rat and the mouse.

In some places so complete was the confusion . . . that the bones of many different elephants were brought into contact, and on some of them even oyster shells were matted"...... Catastrophe and Reconstitution Doorway Papers, by Arthur Custance

Immanuel Velikovsky is known as the "father" of catastrophism. In 1955 he wrote "Earth in Upheaval", using known but suppressed scientific data to make the case that the world had gone through universal "upheaval" instead of the gradualism and uniformism which is still the scientific paradigm, today.

Those looking at the history and geography of the earth usually fall into either the uniformism camp or the catastrophism camp. If you believe in the great flood of Noah, you believe that the history and geology of the world has included catastrophic occurances. Darwinists generally believe that the earth has a uniform history and that its' geology can be explained by a gradual, uniform build-up of sediments over eons of time.

"Experts had dismissed his previous works Worlds in Collision and Ages of Chaos as un-scientific. In response Velikovsky produced this landmark book about global catastrophes. It is pure, fully referenced, fact.

Anyone who reads this will probably dismiss the uniformatarian views of most scientists today, and embrace the more believable cataclysm theories....From a Review of the book.

Following are some interesting excerpts from the 1955 book in which Velikovsky uses science against "science".

Excerpts from "Earth in Upheaval"


(c) Doubleday 1955

Page 3 - "What could have caused the Artic Sea and the Pacific Ocean to irrupt and wash away forests with all their animal population and throw the entire mingled mass in great heaps scattered all over Alaska, the coast of which is no longer the Atlantic seaboard from Newfoundland to Florida?

Was it not a tectonic revolution in the earth's crust, that also caused the volcano's to erupt and to cover the peninsula with ashes?



In various levels of the muck, stone artifacts were found 'frozen in situ at great depths and in apparent association' with the Ice Age fauna, which implies that 'men were contemporary with extinct animals in Alaska.'


Worked flints, characteristically shaped, called Yuma points, were repeatedly found in the Alaskan muck, one hundred and more feet below the surface. One such spear point was found there 'between a lion's jaw and a mammoth's tusk.'

Similar weapons were used only a few generations ago by Indians of the Athapascan tribe, who camped in the upper Tanana Valley. It has also been suggested that even modern Eskimo points are remarkably Yuma-like, all of which indicates that the multitudes of torn animals and splintered forests date from a time not many thousands of years ago.

The Caves of England -Page 15,

In 1823, William Buckland, professor of geology at the University of Oxford, Published his Reliquiae diluvianae (Relics of the flood), with the subtitle, Observations on the organic remains contained in caves, fissures, and diluvial gravel, and other geological phenomena, attesting the action of an universal deluge.

Buckland was one of the great authorities on geology in the first half of the nineteenth century. In a cave in Kirkdale in Yorkshire, eighty feet above the valley, under a floor covering of stalagmites, he found teeth and bones of elephants, rhinoceroses, hippopotami, horses, deer, tigers (teeth of which were larger than those of the largest lion or Bengal tiger), bears, wolves, hyenas, foxes, hares, rabbits, as well as bones of ravens, pigeons, larks, snipe and ducks.

Many of the animals had died 'before the first set, or milk teeth, had been shed.'

…………. The idea which long prevailed, 'was, that they were the remains of elephants imported by the Roman armies. This is also refuted First by the anatomical fact of their belonging to extinct species of this genus, second, by their being usually accompanied by the bones of rhinoceros and hippopotamus, animals that could never have been attached to Roman armies: thirdly, by their being found dispersed over Siberia and North America, in equal or even greater abundance than in those parts of Europe which were subjected to the Roman power.'

The Aquatic Graveyards - Page 19-20,

In the red sandstone an abundant aquatic fauna is embedded. The animals are in disturbed positions. At the period of the past when these formations were composed, 'some terrible catastrophe involved in sudden destruction of the fish of an area at least a hundred miles from boundary to boundary, perhaps much more.

The same pattern in Orkney as at Comarty is strewed thick with remains, which exhibit unequivocally the marks of violent death. The figures are contorted, contracted, curved; the tail in many instances is bent around to the head; the pines stick out; the fins are spread to the full, as in fish that die in convulsions.

The Pterichthys shows its arms extended at their stiffest angle, as if prepared for an enemy. The attitudes of all ichthyolites {any fossil fish} in this platform are attitudes of fear, anger and pain. The remains, too, appear to have suffered nothing from the after-attacks of predacious fishes; none such seem to have survived. The record is one of destruction at once widely spread and total. . .' ~ a thousand localities disclose the same scenes of destruction.

The Asphalt Pit of La Brea - Page 64,



Beds of petroleum shale (rock of laminated structure formed by consolidation of clay), ascribed to the Tertiary Age, having in many places a thickness of about two thousand feet, extend from Cape Mendocino in northern California to Los Angeles and beyond, a distance of over four hundred and fifty miles. The asphalt of Rancho La Brea are an outcrop of this large bituminous formation.


Since 1906 the University of California has been collecting the fossils of Rancho La Brea, 'a most remarkable mass of skeletal material.' When found, these fossils were regarded as representing the fauna of the late Tertiary (Pliocene) or early Pleistocene (Ice Age).

The Pleistocene strata, fifty to one hundred feet thick, over lie the tertiary formations in which the main oil-bearing beds are found. The deposit containing the fossils consists of alluvium, clay, course sand and asphalt.

Most spectacular among the animals found at Rancho La Brea is the Saber-tooth tiger (Smilodon), previously unknown elsewhere in the new or old world, but found since then, in other places too. The canine teeth of this animal, over ten inches long, projected from his mouth like two curved knives. With this weapon the tiger tore the flesh of his prey.



The animal remains are crowded together in the asphalt pit in an unbelievable agglomeration. In the first excavation carried on by the University of California 'a bed of bones was encountered in which the number of saber-tooth and wolf skulls together averaged twenty per cubic yard.'
br>No fewer than seven-hundred skulls of saber-toothed tiger have been recovered.' Among other animals unearthed in this pit were bison, horses, camel, sloths, mammoths, mastodons, and also birds including peacocks.


To explain the presence of these bones in the asphalt, the theory was offered that the animals became entrapped in the tar, sank in it, and were imbedded when the tar hardened. However the large number of animals that filled this asphalt bed to overflowing is baffling.

Moreover the vast majority of them are carnivorous, whereas in any fauna the majority of animals would be herbivorous-otherwise the carnivores would have had no victims for their daily food-requires explanation.

Agate Spring Quarry - Page 67,

In Sioux county Nebraska, on the south side of the Niobrara River, in Agate Springs Quarry, is a fossil bearing deposit up to twenty inches thick. The state of the bones indicate a long and violent transportation before they reached their final resting place. '...the fossils are in such remarkable profusion, in places, as to form a veritable pavement of interlacing bones, very few of which are in their natural articulation with one another,' says R.S. Lull, director of the Peabody Museum at Yale, in his book on fossils.'

The profusion of bones in Agate Springs Quarry may be judged by a single block now in the American Museum of Natural History in New York, this block contains about a hundred bones to the square foot. There is no way of explaining an aggregation of fossils as a natural death retreat of animals of various genera.


The animals found were mammals. The most numerous was the small twin horned rhinoceros (Diceratherium). There was another extinct animal (Moropus) with a head not unlike that of a horse but with heavy legs and claws like that of a carnivorous animal. And bones of a giant swine that stood six feet high (Dinohyus hollandi) were also unearthed.

The Carnegie Museum, which likewise excavated in Agate Spring Quarry, in a space of 1350 square feet found 164,000 bones or about 820 skeletons. A mammal skeleton averages 200 bones. This area represents only one-twentieth of the fossil bed in the quarry, suggesting to Lull that the entire area would yield about 16,400 skeletons of the twin-horned rhinoceros, 500 skeletons of the clawed horse, and 100 skeletons of the giant swine.

A few miles to the east, in another quarry were found skeletons of an animal which, because of its similarity to two extant species, is called a gazelle camel (Stenomylus). A herd of these animals was destroyed in a disaster. ~ the transportation was in a violent cataract of water, sand, and gravel, that left marks on the bones. Tens of thousands of animals were carried over an unknown distance, then smashed into a common grave.



The catastrophe was most likely ubiquitous, for these animals-the small twin-horned rhinoceros, clawed horse, giant swine, and gazelle camel-did not survive, but became extinct. ~ the very circumstances in which they are found bespeak a violent death at the hands of the elements, not slow extinction in a process of evolution.


`In many other place of the world similar finds have been made in the United States ~ In Switzerland a conglomerate of bones of animals that belong to different climates and habitats were found in Kesslerloch near Thayngen: Alpines types are there in one 'Tiergemiosh' with animals of the steppe and of the forest and fauna. In Germany a gravel pit at Neukoln (a suburb of Berlin)"

Extinction - Page 226,

In numerous places of the world the bone content of caves indicates that they served as hide-outs in times of supreme danger. Lions and tigers, wolves and hyenas, gazelles and hares shared the refuge and there found their common grave. But not all places where such assemblages of bones are discovered were sought for refuge.

In many cases the animals were swept from large areas by a tidal wave and thrown against rocks. And the water rushing through the fissures left behind the animals with all their bones broken within their torn bodies.

From as far as China, to England and France and the islands of the Mediterranean, examples of fissures of fissures with bones, splintered and mingled together, have been presented in the book.

Not only fissures in the rocks but caverns in the hills may have been filled with bones, though the caverns might not have been sought for shelter. An irrupting sea or great lake, lifted from its bed and carrying its own detritus and land debris, swept heterogeneous herds of animals and carried then to the farthest reaches and threw over them hills of gravel, rock and earth.

Cumberland cave, described on an earlier page, is one of many examples.

Pg. 60 ~

....the bones of Cumberland cavern were 'for the most part much broken, yet show no sign of being water born. ~ also it happened that animals of northern regions-wolverine and lemming, the long-tailed shrew, mink, red-squirrel, muskrat, porcupine, hare and ell-were heaped together with animals 'suggesting warmer climatic conditions'-peccary, crocodilid, and tapir.

Animals that now live on the western coast of America-coyote, badger and puma like cat-are in this assemblage. ~ 'This is truly a peculiar assemblage of animals'... Extinct animals are found there with extant forms.}

If bones are found rolled, they were mostly carried from afar, and were from animals that had died long before; if bones are more or less intact, the chances that the place was a shelter that failed; and if the bones are splintered, it is highly probably that the animals were smashed by a great force against rocks or resisting ground.

 

[Wuwei]

God exists because His Holy Spirit through the Lord Jesus Christ/Messiah has changed how I perceive things. I'm assuming nothing. As a child realizes his father, or a lamb recognizes its shepherd, so I know my Lord is real and loves me.

That's nice, but this is posted on the Science and Technology forum in a thread titled A scientific dissent from Darwinism. What you are arguing is totally religious and has nothing to do with an argument involving science.

If you do think it is a scientific argument, then as I said, "You are assuming the existence of God in order to prove the existence of God. It is no proof when you axiomatically assume the very thing you are trying to prove."

 

[RWNJ]

God exists because His Holy Spirit through the Lord Jesus Christ/Messiah has changed how I perceive things. I'm assuming nothing. As a child realizes his father, or a lamb recognizes its shepherd, so I know my Lord is real and loves me.

That's nice, but this is posted on the Science and Technology forum in a thread titled A scientific dissent from Darwinism. What you are arguing is totally religious and has nothing to do with an argument involving science.

If you do think it is a scientific argument, then as I said, "You are assuming the existence of God in order to prove the existence of God. It is no proof when you axiomatically assume the very thing you are trying to prove."

And how is that any different from what evolutionists do?

 

[Wuwei]

God exists because His Holy Spirit through the Lord Jesus Christ/Messiah has changed how I perceive things. I'm assuming nothing. As a child realizes his father, or a lamb recognizes its shepherd, so I know my Lord is real and loves me.

That's nice, but this is posted on the Science and Technology forum in a thread titled A scientific dissent from Darwinism. What you are arguing is totally religious and has nothing to do with an argument involving science.

If you do think it is a scientific argument, then as I said, "You are assuming the existence of God in order to prove the existence of God. It is no proof when you axiomatically assume the very thing you are trying to prove."

And how is that any different from what evolutionists do?

I don't understand your question.
Evolution is a science so a posting on the Science and Technology board is appropriate. The totally religious post indicating LittleNipper's Lord loves him is not appropriate as an evolution argument in the Science and Technology board.

That is what is different.

 

[abu afak]

.....
The Boneyards: Excerpts from "Earth in Upheaval", by Velikovsky ...PAGE 5

"And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark". ....

This Post was PLAGIARIZED from...
The Boneyards: Excerpts from "Earth in Upheaval", by Velikovsky

and I might add, there wasn't enough water for an Earth-covering Flood anytime when when the said animals were on the ark, or any other time in animal-populated or even other history for that matter.

If all ice on the planet melted, sea level would rise about 200' leaving much of the earth's terrain unflooded, including, ie, Jerusalem high and dry, at altitude 2500'.

Flood tales appear in many books and most likely the biblical one was morphed from the Black Sea creation/Flood which happened about 5600 BC, and was a large but Local event.
`

 

[rightwinger]

No question evolution occurs
No evidence of god

Prove it!

OK

Just look at rock strata and fossil evidence

At low levels there are only simple organisms
As you move up the strata, more complex organisms appear

Blows your biblical version apart....Your turn
Provide proof of God

The rock strata only proves that the FLOOD had depth and occurred in stages and wasn't simply water sloshing about. Bigger animals are going to be easier to discover than average sized ones. Humans are going to try to climb out of harm's way. Creatures that ended up floating on top would be the ones that would rot away without a trace. Water organisms are going to be more prevalent and would be first to get buried in the silt and any churning muck. The Bible declares that the original creation of GOD was GOOD. The Fall of man brings about corruption, change and death. The Flood brought about total destruction, much oblivian, and a change in the surface of the entire Earth ---- likely the end result of the universal shakeup of the entire creation (including the solar system, galaxies, and the universe). I personally believe that even the moon was likely once smooth and not pocked. And meteors and asteroids did not exist... Strata is most likely the combination of multiple events --- preFlood creation, meteoric collisions, comet impacts, volcanic upheavals, and the Flood's subsidence. And then we have thousands of years of post Flood events that add their own confusion to the mix.

And frankly, there is also the interference of Satan himself. Do you really imagine that he would not try his best to interfere with man's understanding? Does Satan want man to repent and believe GOD? Why wouldn't he make things difficult or give man a counterfeit "creation" story to eliminate GOD. So, finally it comes down to believing GOD by FAITH and not seeking after signs... All the proof in the world will not save anyone if that one rejects GOD. Satan has lost the battle when Christ died on the cross; however, he was the original cherub that GOD placed in charge of the material world and particularly the Earth. So GOD allowed satan to bring the Flood and Satan orchestrated it to his advantage; however, GOD revealed to us what actually happened in His word. Satan is still presently the author of confusion and is still attempting to manipulate the data. What are you going to trust?

Wrong again Nips

The flood would have deposited a single layer of mud and sediment that would be filled with the remains of all the animals and people that God killed
If there had been a flood like the Bible said, there would be a massive strata full of lions, tigers, dinosaurs, people,birds, snakes, unicorns and troglodytes

Various events at the start of the FLOOD, during the FLOOD, as the FLOOD progressed, and as the FLOOD subsided would have created layering.

The Boneyards: Excerpts from "Earth in Upheaval", by Velikovsky ...PAGE 5

"And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark". Genesis 7

"The great problem for geological theories to explain is that amazing phenomenon, the mingling of the remains of animals of different species and climates, discovered in exhaustless quantities in the interior parts of the earth so that the exuviae of those genera which no longer exist at all, are found confusedly mixed together in the soils of the most northerly latitudes. . . . The bones of those animals which can live only in the torrid zone are buried in the frozen soil of the polar regions.

And to quote one more contemporary, George Fairholme, who described similar evidence in Italy from the Arno River Valley:

In this sandy matrix bones were found at every depth from that of a few feet to a hundred feet or more. From the large and more apparent bones of the elephant, the rhinoceros, the megatherium, the elk, the buffalo, the stag, and so forth, naturalists were led by the elaborate studies of Cuvier and other comparative anatomists to the remains of the now living bear, tiger, wolf, hyena, rabbit, and finally the more minute remains even of the water rat and the mouse.

In some places so complete was the confusion . . . that the bones of many different elephants were brought into contact, and on some of them even oyster shells were matted"...... Catastrophe and Reconstitution Doorway Papers, by Arthur Custance

Immanuel Velikovsky is known as the "father" of catastrophism. In 1955 he wrote "Earth in Upheaval", using known but suppressed scientific data to make the case that the world had gone through universal "upheaval" instead of the gradualism and uniformism which is still the scientific paradigm, today.

Those looking at the history and geography of the earth usually fall into either the uniformism camp or the catastrophism camp. If you believe in the great flood of Noah, you believe that the history and geology of the world has included catastrophic occurances. Darwinists generally believe that the earth has a uniform history and that its' geology can be explained by a gradual, uniform build-up of sediments over eons of time.

"Experts had dismissed his previous works Worlds in Collision and Ages of Chaos as un-scientific. In response Velikovsky produced this landmark book about global catastrophes. It is pure, fully referenced, fact.

Anyone who reads this will probably dismiss the uniformatarian views of most scientists today, and embrace the more believable cataclysm theories....From a Review of the book.

Following are some interesting excerpts from the 1955 book in which Velikovsky uses science against "science".

Excerpts from "Earth in Upheaval"


(c) Doubleday 1955

Page 3 - "What could have caused the Artic Sea and the Pacific Ocean to irrupt and wash away forests with all their animal population and throw the entire mingled mass in great heaps scattered all over Alaska, the coast of which is no longer the Atlantic seaboard from Newfoundland to Florida?

Was it not a tectonic revolution in the earth's crust, that also caused the volcano's to erupt and to cover the peninsula with ashes?



In various levels of the muck, stone artifacts were found 'frozen in situ at great depths and in apparent association' with the Ice Age fauna, which implies that 'men were contemporary with extinct animals in Alaska.'


Worked flints, characteristically shaped, called Yuma points, were repeatedly found in the Alaskan muck, one hundred and more feet below the surface. One such spear point was found there 'between a lion's jaw and a mammoth's tusk.'

Similar weapons were used only a few generations ago by Indians of the Athapascan tribe, who camped in the upper Tanana Valley. It has also been suggested that even modern Eskimo points are remarkably Yuma-like, all of which indicates that the multitudes of torn animals and splintered forests date from a time not many thousands of years ago.

The Caves of England -Page 15,

In 1823, William Buckland, professor of geology at the University of Oxford, Published his Reliquiae diluvianae (Relics of the flood), with the subtitle, Observations on the organic remains contained in caves, fissures, and diluvial gravel, and other geological phenomena, attesting the action of an universal deluge.

Buckland was one of the great authorities on geology in the first half of the nineteenth century. In a cave in Kirkdale in Yorkshire, eighty feet above the valley, under a floor covering of stalagmites, he found teeth and bones of elephants, rhinoceroses, hippopotami, horses, deer, tigers (teeth of which were larger than those of the largest lion or Bengal tiger), bears, wolves, hyenas, foxes, hares, rabbits, as well as bones of ravens, pigeons, larks, snipe and ducks.

Many of the animals had died 'before the first set, or milk teeth, had been shed.'

…………. The idea which long prevailed, 'was, that they were the remains of elephants imported by the Roman armies. This is also refuted First by the anatomical fact of their belonging to extinct species of this genus, second, by their being usually accompanied by the bones of rhinoceros and hippopotamus, animals that could never have been attached to Roman armies: thirdly, by their being found dispersed over Siberia and North America, in equal or even greater abundance than in those parts of Europe which were subjected to the Roman power.'

The Aquatic Graveyards - Page 19-20,

In the red sandstone an abundant aquatic fauna is embedded. The animals are in disturbed positions. At the period of the past when these formations were composed, 'some terrible catastrophe involved in sudden destruction of the fish of an area at least a hundred miles from boundary to boundary, perhaps much more.

The same pattern in Orkney as at Comarty is strewed thick with remains, which exhibit unequivocally the marks of violent death. The figures are contorted, contracted, curved; the tail in many instances is bent around to the head; the pines stick out; the fins are spread to the full, as in fish that die in convulsions.

The Pterichthys shows its arms extended at their stiffest angle, as if prepared for an enemy. The attitudes of all ichthyolites {any fossil fish} in this platform are attitudes of fear, anger and pain. The remains, too, appear to have suffered nothing from the after-attacks of predacious fishes; none such seem to have survived. The record is one of destruction at once widely spread and total. . .' ~ a thousand localities disclose the same scenes of destruction.

The Asphalt Pit of La Brea - Page 64,



Beds of petroleum shale (rock of laminated structure formed by consolidation of clay), ascribed to the Tertiary Age, having in many places a thickness of about two thousand feet, extend from Cape Mendocino in northern California to Los Angeles and beyond, a distance of over four hundred and fifty miles. The asphalt of Rancho La Brea are an outcrop of this large bituminous formation.


Since 1906 the University of California has been collecting the fossils of Rancho La Brea, 'a most remarkable mass of skeletal material.' When found, these fossils were regarded as representing the fauna of the late Tertiary (Pliocene) or early Pleistocene (Ice Age).

The Pleistocene strata, fifty to one hundred feet thick, over lie the tertiary formations in which the main oil-bearing beds are found. The deposit containing the fossils consists of alluvium, clay, course sand and asphalt.

Most spectacular among the animals found at Rancho La Brea is the Saber-tooth tiger (Smilodon), previously unknown elsewhere in the new or old world, but found since then, in other places too. The canine teeth of this animal, over ten inches long, projected from his mouth like two curved knives. With this weapon the tiger tore the flesh of his prey.



The animal remains are crowded together in the asphalt pit in an unbelievable agglomeration. In the first excavation carried on by the University of California 'a bed of bones was encountered in which the number of saber-tooth and wolf skulls together averaged twenty per cubic yard.'
br>No fewer than seven-hundred skulls of saber-toothed tiger have been recovered.' Among other animals unearthed in this pit were bison, horses, camel, sloths, mammoths, mastodons, and also birds including peacocks.


To explain the presence of these bones in the asphalt, the theory was offered that the animals became entrapped in the tar, sank in it, and were imbedded when the tar hardened. However the large number of animals that filled this asphalt bed to overflowing is baffling.

Moreover the vast majority of them are carnivorous, whereas in any fauna the majority of animals would be herbivorous-otherwise the carnivores would have had no victims for their daily food-requires explanation.

Agate Spring Quarry - Page 67,

In Sioux county Nebraska, on the south side of the Niobrara River, in Agate Springs Quarry, is a fossil bearing deposit up to twenty inches thick. The state of the bones indicate a long and violent transportation before they reached their final resting place. '...the fossils are in such remarkable profusion, in places, as to form a veritable pavement of interlacing bones, very few of which are in their natural articulation with one another,' says R.S. Lull, director of the Peabody Museum at Yale, in his book on fossils.'

The profusion of bones in Agate Springs Quarry may be judged by a single block now in the American Museum of Natural History in New York, this block contains about a hundred bones to the square foot. There is no way of explaining an aggregation of fossils as a natural death retreat of animals of various genera.


The animals found were mammals. The most numerous was the small twin horned rhinoceros (Diceratherium). There was another extinct animal (Moropus) with a head not unlike that of a horse but with heavy legs and claws like that of a carnivorous animal. And bones of a giant swine that stood six feet high (Dinohyus hollandi) were also unearthed.

The Carnegie Museum, which likewise excavated in Agate Spring Quarry, in a space of 1350 square feet found 164,000 bones or about 820 skeletons. A mammal skeleton averages 200 bones. This area represents only one-twentieth of the fossil bed in the quarry, suggesting to Lull that the entire area would yield about 16,400 skeletons of the twin-horned rhinoceros, 500 skeletons of the clawed horse, and 100 skeletons of the giant swine.

A few miles to the east, in another quarry were found skeletons of an animal which, because of its similarity to two extant species, is called a gazelle camel (Stenomylus). A herd of these animals was destroyed in a disaster. ~ the transportation was in a violent cataract of water, sand, and gravel, that left marks on the bones. Tens of thousands of animals were carried over an unknown distance, then smashed into a common grave.



The catastrophe was most likely ubiquitous, for these animals-the small twin-horned rhinoceros, clawed horse, giant swine, and gazelle camel-did not survive, but became extinct. ~ the very circumstances in which they are found bespeak a violent death at the hands of the elements, not slow extinction in a process of evolution.


`In many other place of the world similar finds have been made in the United States ~ In Switzerland a conglomerate of bones of animals that belong to different climates and habitats were found in Kesslerloch near Thayngen: Alpines types are there in one 'Tiergemiosh' with animals of the steppe and of the forest and fauna. In Germany a gravel pit at Neukoln (a suburb of Berlin)"

Extinction - Page 226,

In numerous places of the world the bone content of caves indicates that they served as hide-outs in times of supreme danger. Lions and tigers, wolves and hyenas, gazelles and hares shared the refuge and there found their common grave. But not all places where such assemblages of bones are discovered were sought for refuge.

In many cases the animals were swept from large areas by a tidal wave and thrown against rocks. And the water rushing through the fissures left behind the animals with all their bones broken within their torn bodies.

From as far as China, to England and France and the islands of the Mediterranean, examples of fissures of fissures with bones, splintered and mingled together, have been presented in the book.

Not only fissures in the rocks but caverns in the hills may have been filled with bones, though the caverns might not have been sought for shelter. An irrupting sea or great lake, lifted from its bed and carrying its own detritus and land debris, swept heterogeneous herds of animals and carried then to the farthest reaches and threw over them hills of gravel, rock and earth.

Cumberland cave, described on an earlier page, is one of many examples.

Pg. 60 ~

....the bones of Cumberland cavern were 'for the most part much broken, yet show no sign of being water born. ~ also it happened that animals of northern regions-wolverine and lemming, the long-tailed shrew, mink, red-squirrel, muskrat, porcupine, hare and ell-were heaped together with animals 'suggesting warmer climatic conditions'-peccary, crocodilid, and tapir.

Animals that now live on the western coast of America-coyote, badger and puma like cat-are in this assemblage. ~ 'This is truly a peculiar assemblage of animals'... Extinct animals are found there with extant forms.}

If bones are found rolled, they were mostly carried from afar, and were from animals that had died long before; if bones are more or less intact, the chances that the place was a shelter that failed; and if the bones are splintered, it is highly probably that the animals were smashed by a great force against rocks or resisting ground.

tl;dr

 

[RWNJ]

God exists because His Holy Spirit through the Lord Jesus Christ/Messiah has changed how I perceive things. I'm assuming nothing. As a child realizes his father, or a lamb recognizes its shepherd, so I know my Lord is real and loves me.

That's nice, but this is posted on the Science and Technology forum in a thread titled A scientific dissent from Darwinism. What you are arguing is totally religious and has nothing to do with an argument involving science.

If you do think it is a scientific argument, then as I said, "You are assuming the existence of God in order to prove the existence of God. It is no proof when you axiomatically assume the very thing you are trying to prove."

And how is that any different from what evolutionists do?

I don't understand your question.
Evolution is a science so a posting on the Science and Technology board is appropriate. The totally religious post indicating LittleNipper's Lord loves him is not appropriate as an evolution argument in the Science and Technology board.

That is what is different.

Evolution is not science. It is a hypothesis that uses science to try gain credibility. You cannot observe it. You cannot test it in any way, nor can you conduct any experiments on it. Google the scientific method. You might learn something.

 

[rightwinger]

God exists because His Holy Spirit through the Lord Jesus Christ/Messiah has changed how I perceive things. I'm assuming nothing. As a child realizes his father, or a lamb recognizes its shepherd, so I know my Lord is real and loves me.

That's nice, but this is posted on the Science and Technology forum in a thread titled A scientific dissent from Darwinism. What you are arguing is totally religious and has nothing to do with an argument involving science.

If you do think it is a scientific argument, then as I said, "You are assuming the existence of God in order to prove the existence of God. It is no proof when you axiomatically assume the very thing you are trying to prove."

And how is that any different from what evolutionists do?

I don't understand your question.
Evolution is a science so a posting on the Science and Technology board is appropriate. The totally religious post indicating LittleNipper's Lord loves him is not appropriate as an evolution argument in the Science and Technology board.

That is what is different.

Evolution is not science. It is a hypothesis that uses science to try gain credibility. You cannot observe it. You cannot test it in any way, nor can you conduct any experiments on it. Google the scientific method. You might learn something.

Evolution is science

It is supported by biological, geological, fossil and DNA evidence
All of which have been observed

That is the scientific method

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Evolution is not science. It is a hypothesis that uses science to try gain credibility.

Sorry people, but you are not going to penetrate this wall of willful, happy stupidity. Not ever

 

[Wuwei]

Evolution is not science. It is a hypothesis that uses science to try gain credibility. You cannot observe it. You cannot test it in any way, nor can you conduct any experiments on it. Google the scientific method. You might learn something.

RightWinger addressed your remarks.

I would add that if you think evolution is not a science, why did you open this thread on a science board. You sure are snotty in your remarks. When you are snotty and wrong, it makes you look bad.

 

[LittleNipper]

God exists because His Holy Spirit through the Lord Jesus Christ/Messiah has changed how I perceive things. I'm assuming nothing. As a child realizes his father, or a lamb recognizes its shepherd, so I know my Lord is real and loves me.

That's nice, but this is posted on the Science and Technology forum in a thread titled A scientific dissent from Darwinism. What you are arguing is totally religious and has nothing to do with an argument involving science.

If you do think it is a scientific argument, then as I said, "You are assuming the existence of God in order to prove the existence of God. It is no proof when you axiomatically assume the very thing you are trying to prove."

What evolutionists are presenting is anti -GOD and a humanistic belief. So sorry you cannot accept that evolutionism is distorting the facts to set the tone for their theory that works to exclude GOD and creationists on the grounds such doesn't follow the prerequisites that evolutionists themselves have established. You wanted a pile of all sorts fossils dumped together. You've been handed that. Evolutionists don't like to research this --- because the implications are disturbing. And I can see that now you have all sorts of excuses to disregard such facts. i don't disregard any evolutionists FACTS on the grounds they are not creationist, I simply try to rethink what they say from a different perspective. Evolutionists simply try to ignore and hide things they cannot deal with.

 

[rightwinger]

God exists because His Holy Spirit through the Lord Jesus Christ/Messiah has changed how I perceive things. I'm assuming nothing. As a child realizes his father, or a lamb recognizes its shepherd, so I know my Lord is real and loves me.

That's nice, but this is posted on the Science and Technology forum in a thread titled A scientific dissent from Darwinism. What you are arguing is totally religious and has nothing to do with an argument involving science.

If you do think it is a scientific argument, then as I said, "You are assuming the existence of God in order to prove the existence of God. It is no proof when you axiomatically assume the very thing you are trying to prove."

What evolutionists are presenting is anti -GOD and a humanistic belief. So sorry you cannot accept that evolutionism is distorting the facts to set the tone for their theory that works to exclude GOD and creationists on the grounds such doesn't follow the prerequisites that evolutionists themselves have established. You wanted a pile of all sorts fossils dumped together. You've been handed that. Evolutionists don't like to research this --- because the implications are disturbing. And I can see that now you have all sorts of excuses to disregard such facts. i don't disregard any evolutionists FACTS on the grounds they are not creationist, I simply try to rethink what they say from a different perspective. Evolutionists simply try to ignore and hide things they cannot deal with.

What evolutionists are presenting is an explanation of life evolving from simple creatures

What you are providing is wishful thinking based on fantasy

 

[GreenBean]

Evolution is a FACT

God is a theory

Just to clue you knuckleheads in Neither is a Fact. Evolution is the THEORY of evolution and God is part of a belief system -

 

[GreenBean]

What evolutionists are presenting is anti -GOD

Not neccesarily .... Bible states it took 6 days but it doesn't say how long those days were ... just the evening and the morniong were the first day and so forth and so on. The 24 hr. time period didn't come about till later [theoretically]

On the fourth day, God commanded that there be lights in the sky to separate day and night. He made the sun, moon and stars to separate light from darkness (Gen. 1:14-18). But we are told in verse 4 that God had separated light from darkness on the first day; and the words "evening and morning" show that there was already a separation between night and day. So what really happened on the fourth day of creation?

On the fourth day, God called for the sun and moon to separate day and night — something seemingly unnecessary, for day and night already existed. And God commanded that the sun and moon "give light on the earth" — another thing that had already been done on day one. Part of the stated purpose is puzzling if we interpret the account literally — and these questions about sequence exist no matter how long the "days" were.

 

[rightwinger]

What evolutionists are presenting is anti -GOD

Not neccesarily .... Bible states it took 6 days but it doesn't say how long those days were ... just the evening and the morniong were the first day and so forth and so on. The 24 hr. time period didn't come about till later [theoretically]

On the fourth day, God commanded that there be lights in the sky to separate day and night. He made the sun, moon and stars to separate light from darkness (Gen. 1:14-18). But we are told in verse 4 that God had separated light from darkness on the first day; and the words "evening and morning" show that there was already a separation between night and day. So what really happened on the fourth day of creation?

On the fourth day, God called for the sun and moon to separate day and night — something seemingly unnecessary, for day and night already existed. And God commanded that the sun and moon "give light on the earth" — another thing that had already been done on day one. Part of the stated purpose is puzzling if we interpret the account literally — and these questions about sequence exist no matter how long the "days" were.

Once God created the earth.....a 24 hour day was established

 

[GreenBean]

What evolutionists are presenting is anti -GOD

Not neccesarily .... Bible states it took 6 days but it doesn't say how long those days were ... just the evening and the morniong were the first day and so forth and so on. The 24 hr. time period didn't come about till later [theoretically]

On the fourth day, God commanded that there be lights in the sky to separate day and night. He made the sun, moon and stars to separate light from darkness (Gen. 1:14-18). But we are told in verse 4 that God had separated light from darkness on the first day; and the words "evening and morning" show that there was already a separation between night and day. So what really happened on the fourth day of creation?

On the fourth day, God called for the sun and moon to separate day and night — something seemingly unnecessary, for day and night already existed. And God commanded that the sun and moon "give light on the earth" — another thing that had already been done on day one. Part of the stated purpose is puzzling if we interpret the account literally — and these questions about sequence exist no matter how long the "days" were.

Once God created the earth.....a 24 hour day was established

Without a Sun or Moon ??? ... Interesting berry berry interesting .... but stooopid . What do you know about the 'light' you spend too much time in the sewer

 

[rightwinger]

What evolutionists are presenting is anti -GOD

Not neccesarily .... Bible states it took 6 days but it doesn't say how long those days were ... just the evening and the morniong were the first day and so forth and so on. The 24 hr. time period didn't come about till later [theoretically]

On the fourth day, God commanded that there be lights in the sky to separate day and night. He made the sun, moon and stars to separate light from darkness (Gen. 1:14-18). But we are told in verse 4 that God had separated light from darkness on the first day; and the words "evening and morning" show that there was already a separation between night and day. So what really happened on the fourth day of creation?

On the fourth day, God called for the sun and moon to separate day and night — something seemingly unnecessary, for day and night already existed. And God commanded that the sun and moon "give light on the earth" — another thing that had already been done on day one. Part of the stated purpose is puzzling if we interpret the account literally — and these questions about sequence exist no matter how long the "days" were.

Once God created the earth.....a 24 hour day was established

Without a Sun or Moon ??? ... Interesting berry berry interesting .... but stooopid . What do you know about the 'light' you spend too much time in the sewer

It’s not my silly fairy tale

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Evolution is a FACT

God is a theory

Just to clue you knuckleheads in Neither is a Fact. Evolution is the THEORY of evolution and God is part of a belief system -

Hmm, no , evolution is a fact. It is as well known a fact as the fact that the Earth revolves about the Sun.