Zone1 A question for Jews

[surada]

Surprising since it is an easy claim to support:

Messiah #1: Military Leader
The idea that the Messiah was to be a great warrior is not only present in the Dead Sea scrolls. It can also be found in several Aramaic translations (targums) of the Bible, such as the following rendering of the Song of Hannah.

The Lord shall shatter the adversaries who arose to do evil to His people; He shall blast them with a loud noise issuing from heaven. The Lord shall exact punishment from [the proverbial northern enemy] Gog and from the marauding armies of the nations who come with him from the ends of the earth. He shall give strength to His king and shall make great the kingdom of His Messiah.​

Cyrus the Messiah? The Historical Background to Isaiah 45:1​

According to Isaiah 45:1, Cyrus is YHWH's anointed, his Messiah: Thus says YHWH to his anointed, to Cyrus whom I took by his right hand.

King David: The Rise of the Warrior King - Biblical Warfare

A survey of the life of King David from a military and political perspective. Explore little-known details on the rise of this warrior king.

www.biblicalwarfare.com

 

[theHawk]

What receipts? I can show you every instance of the mention of any anointed person. None says he will be divine, none says he will be rejected, or need a second coming. I can show you references to an end of days when things will happen that are tied interpretively to the arrival of a future Messiah. It is amazing how Christians piggy back on rabbinic interpretations and then decide to abandon any rabbinic Jewish ideas when are no longer useful.

Then why did Isaiah say he would be called a “God-hero”?

”For a child is born to us, a son is given to us;
upon his shoulders dominion rests.
They name him Wonder-counselor, God-Hero, Father-forever, Prince of Peace.”

-Isaiah 9:5


I will proclaim the decree of the Lord, he said to me, “You are my son; today I have begotten you.”
- Psalm 2:7

Is there anywhere else in the Torah/OT that the Lord says he has begotten a son?

 

[theHawk]

Like King David??

King David: The Rise of the Warrior King - Biblical Warfare

A survey of the life of King David from a military and political perspective. Explore little-known details on the rise of this warrior king.

www.biblicalwarfare.com

Only in the Royal sense, not his sinful and warmongering sense.

The Messiah is to be a “New David”, and “New High Priest”, and a “New Moses” all in one.
A King in the line of David.
A high priest in the line of Melchizedek.
He will establish new Law for everyone as Moses did for Israel.

 

[rosends]

Then why did Isaiah say he would be called a “God-hero”?

”For a child is born to us, a son is given to us;
upon his shoulders dominion rests.
They name him Wonder-counselor, God-Hero, Father-forever, Prince of Peace.”

-Isaiah 9:5

What do you mean "he"? Who do you think Isaiah 9 is talking about? And why do you think that a name is a title? You are starting with a Christian understanding of the verses and then wondering why a Jew doesn't agree with your understanding.

I will proclaim the decree of the Lord, he said to me, “You are my son; today I have begotten you.”
- Psalm 2:7

Is there anywhere else in the Torah/OT that the Lord says he has begotten a son?

Nope, that particular word is used just about David.

 

[surada]

Then why did Isaiah say he would be called a “God-hero”?

”For a child is born to us, a son is given to us;
upon his shoulders dominion rests.
They name him Wonder-counselor, God-Hero, Father-forever, Prince of Peace.”

-Isaiah 9:5


I will proclaim the decree of the Lord, he said to me, “You are my son; today I have begotten you.”
- Psalm 2:7

Is there anywhere else in the Torah/OT that the Lord says he has begotten a son?

Isaiah didn't write about Jesus.

 

[theHawk]

Who do you think Isaiah 9 is talking about?

It’s talking about the Messiah. Why do you play dumb?

 

[theHawk]

Nope, that particular word is used just about David.

And you can back this claim up? Nope. As usual you declare something without anything to back it up.

Nowhere did the Lord claim he begot David. David is the son of Jesse.

 

[theHawk]

Isaiah didn't write about Jesus.

Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ.
Whoever denies the Father and the Son, that is the anti-Christ.
1 John 2:22

 

[surada]

It’s talking about the Messiah. Why do you play dumb?

Isaiah is writing about Hezekiah who will be called Emmanuel. Matthew turned it into a prophecy about Jesus.

 

[surada]

What do you mean "he"? Who do you think Isaiah 9 is talking about? And why do you think that a name is a title? You are starting with a Christian understanding of the verses and then wondering why a Jew doesn't agree with your understanding.

Nope, that particular word is used just about David.

Not David, Hezekiah.

 

[surada]

I have to say, it’s surprising how some folks here make up stuff in order to discredit Jesus being the Messiah.

Some claim that the title “Son of Man”, which Jesus preferred to use himself, does not refer to being divine. That the prophecies foretold in books such as Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc were only referring to a normal human that would be a king.

Yet in the New Testament, at the trial of Jesus, the High Priests asked him:

"I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! What do you think?" They answered and said, "He is deserving of death."

Now here the priest asks if he is “the Christ”, which is the Messiah, and adds “the Son of God”.

If the Messiah/Christ was to be a “regular human being” and not divine, why would the priest ask this?

Then when Jesus says he is, and they will see “the Son of Man” sitting at the right hand of the Power, coming on the clouds of heaven, the priest loses his shit and tears his own clothes off and cries blasphemy. Jesus was referencing Daniel, which some folks here claim was not a real prophet. But if that was true then why did the high priest scream blasphemy about its reference then? If Daniel was just some “story” based off some ancient poem, why would the high priest lose his mind and demand Jesus be put to death?

Daniel ch7:
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] comingwith the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.


I know reading New Testament is like burning your own eyeballs out for certain people, but can these Christ-deniers explain this paradox?

Do you know who Antiochus IV Epiphanies was? Do you you why the Maccabees revolted or why they rededicated the temple?

 

[surada]

Surprising since it is an easy claim to support:

Messiah #1: Military Leader
The idea that the Messiah was to be a great warrior is not only present in the Dead Sea scrolls. It can also be found in several Aramaic translations (targums) of the Bible, such as the following rendering of the Song of Hannah.

The Lord shall shatter the adversaries who arose to do evil to His people; He shall blast them with a loud noise issuing from heaven. The Lord shall exact punishment from [the proverbial northern enemy] Gog and from the marauding armies of the nations who come with him from the ends of the earth. He shall give strength to His king and shall make great the kingdom of His Messiah.​

Cyrus the Messiah? The Historical Background to Isaiah 45:1​

According to Isaiah 45:1, Cyrus is YHWH's anointed, his Messiah: Thus says YHWH to his anointed, to Cyrus whom I took by his right hand.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were put in the caves about 160 BC. Cyrus was considered a Messiah.

Isaiah is about Hezekiah. Much later Matthew borrowed Emmanuel and made it about Jesus.

Antiochus IV Epiphanies tried to Hellenize the Jews so he defiled the temple (Abomination of Desolation).. The Maccabees revolted and rededicated the temple..

Gog and Magog invaded Palestine in 638 BC.

 

[surada]

So you can’t answer the questions.


Is Daniel a prophet, or heretic?

Is the Messiah Jews are waiting for going to be “just a man” or will he be divine?

Daniel was a committee.

 

[surada]

And you can back this claim up? Nope. As usual you declare something without anything to back it up.

Nowhere did the Lord claim he begot David. David is the son of Jesse.

In Hosea God calls Israel my son.

 

[theHawk]

In Hosea God calls Israel my son.

Many people get called the son of God.

Never did God state himself that he begot a son.

Your attempts to undermine it have failed.

 

[theHawk]

Isaiah is writing about Hezekiah who will be called Emmanuel. Matthew turned it into a prophecy about Jesus.

That has to be the lamest attempt to distort the words of Isaiah I’ve ever seen.

 

[rosends]

It’s talking about the Messiah. Why do you play dumb?

That's actually not an answer. Who, not what. Why are you avoiding the question as asked?

 

[rosends]

And you can back this claim up? Nope. As usual you declare something without anything to back it up.

Nowhere did the Lord claim he begot David. David is the son of Jesse.

And yet God used that wording (begotten) in reference to David. Would you rather explain that God used that word in reference to Harry Potter, or some other character absent from the book of Psalms?

 

[rosends]

Not David, Hezekiah.

No. Psalms 2 is not Hezekiah. Isaiah 9 is.

 

[surada]

Many people get called the son of God.

Never did God state himself that he begot a son.

Your attempts to undermine it have failed.

Read Hosea.

Bible Gateway Hosea 11 :: NIV

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